Steven Morgan Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 My son will not because of the IHSWCA rules and those who are interested so far probably will wrestle in it but might not be considered favorites. So I guess it will be made mostly of kids who want to go but might not make the team, but are still good wrestlers who wish to compete. No big guys have contacted me so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matside Ma Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Next year when these pretty good 5th graders CAN wrestle in the M.S. State tournament--will they? Or will this team decide that they (to paraphrase) are not interested in the weigh in situation at M.S. state ,paying the fee to wrestle at IHSWCA or paying the $$$$ to travel two hours away and stay on this already organized good team? If the "big guys" contact you will you turn them away? It seems from you initial post that you were encouraging wrestlers to ditch M.S. state tournament for a easier sign-up process. It isn't even about THIS year as much as is about the future strength and depth of M.S. Team Indiana. You may be the first to form a "unofficial" team Indiana ,but once you do so others will follow--soon our talent will be so diluted that all Indiana teams attending this event will be mediocre at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan1 Posted January 21, 2009 Share Posted January 21, 2009 Lets make sure we are not attacking people on here, if you want to do that send a pm!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justadadnow Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Unless the rules have changed since I was the ISWA Folkstyle Director, although 5th graders are allowed to wrestle at this tourney, they MUST BE ON THEIR STATES SANCTIONED TEAM(S). The ISWA only sanctions the TWO teams determined from their qualifier. This was the rule for the last 4 years at least, maybe they have changed this year. Jacob brings up some very valid points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Just for the record, I do not think a fith grader should be allowed to wrestle in middle school or at the middle school state. This is exactly what I was talking about. Parents reliving their childhood through their child. At the childs expense. There are some kids out there that it is win at no expense, and are great young wrestlers. These are the ones that I question wether they will be burnt out later if they are even still wrestling. If they are still wrestling, will they be wrestling because their parents expect them to? Will they be as great then as they are now? I know Steve and have great respect for him. I do however disagree with him on this issue. The issue of fifth graders wrestling in the middle school duals. And if they can`t, they put a team together to reinvent the wheel. I think Indiana kids need to wrestle on Indiana teams. Indiana kids should be on Indiana teams that are made up of kids who have earned their way onto the Indiana teams. I am not insinuating that his son would not be wrestling later. I am just following a train of thought. I mentionioned Kids from Indiana on Indiana teams. This was in reference to last year when someone took a team to Michigan that was being represented as an Indiana team. This particular dual was an all star dual so it would be a matter of interpretation. I believe they went under Team Champion. Everyone knows that Team Champion is from Indiana. That team did have some Indiana studs on it. There were several out of state kids on it as well. The Indiana Brawlers went to Tennessee with several Michigan wrestlers on it. Not average wrestlers either. Suttermeister, Hall and a few others.I wish they were from Indiana. If Indiana wrestling fans truly care about Indiana wrestling becoming a contender with other states that dominate. They need to start walking the same walk they are talking. Why not do this, at the end of each season, lets have a tournament of champions where kids from differant age groups that are state champions and runners up challenge each other for bragging rights. A club with a little insight on this could put a little coin in their pocket by hosting this event. You would have to limit the age differance like novice and school boy and school boy and cadet and son on. I am in no way trying to point fingers at anyone in particular. There are other clubs that do the same thing. I don`t think they are doing Indiana wrestling any favors either. If you agree with this great, if you don`t, oh well. It is an opinion. Don`t let your drawers get in a bunch over it. Sorry for using any names in it. I removed the original post and pasted in this which was copied with some adjustments in it. The dag on thing timed out while I was posting and I did not want to go back in and do it all over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspray1 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 We had three kids from michigan on the brawlers the rules only allows for three out of district athletes please don't start trying to add more to the team 16 of the 19 kids were from indiana plus we had three indiana alternates. So 19 out of 22 kids on our team were from in state. There were also a few indiana kids on Illinois teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMAWRESTLER Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Lets make sure we are not attacking people on here, if you want to do that send a pm!! Thanks Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Lets make sure we are not attacking people on here, if you want to do that send a pm!! Thanks Tim Not attacking anyone on here. Just voicing an opinion. I guess the only problem with that is, when it differs from someone elses. They want to take their ball and go home. The only problem with that is, the ball belongs to the gym. Not the player. Unless things have changed since this board was started. Opinions are encouraged. I am not attacking anyone. Please do not take it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspray1 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Jacob it wasn't your post I put that on. If you are not attacking then don't worry about it. Don't let paranoia set in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Sorry, a threat in a personal E-Mail set me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Lets keep this on topic please. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan1 Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Lets make sure we are not attacking people on here, if you want to do that send a pm!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Morgan Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Jacob, I had enough success in wrestling that I am not living it through my son. I do however have aspirations of him attaining personal character traits that come from only having been a wrestler and not a spectator or parent, such as, discipline, ethics and hard work to name just a few. I'm not saying wrestling is the only way to acquire these traits, only that if you do wrestle long enough, you will acquire them. Burn out? I don't believe there is such a thing. There is a change of priorities, that happens all the time, and that?s ok as well, it's a part of life and growing, but I doubt it will happen in H.S. Since we don't compete as much and practice the same number of days as everyone else {or less} I doubt seriously we'll become burnt out. It's not how much or how often you train, but the quality of your training/coaching/technique. My son reads and plays video games more than anything else, and he can continue doing so as long as his report card keeps looking the same as it as every grading period. Having coached the sport at the H.S. level for five years, M.S. level for fourteen years and being a teacher, I think I know when to push harder and when to pull back the reigns, especially for my own son. Your comment on Indiana catching up with other states, Michigan, PA and New Jersey were the top teams at the Virginia Challenge this past month, they allow 5th graders to compete on their M.S. team. Two 5th graders were on Michigan's team that took second. This is the same team that won Danville last year. They said that the Virginia tournament was by far tougher than Danville. If these elite states are going to these tournaments and using 5th graders maybe we should. Just my personal thoughts on wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Posted January 23, 2009 Share Posted January 23, 2009 Steve, your son is a great kid, probably the most well mannered child I have seen in a long time. He is a very gifted wrestler as well. I hope you understand that I was not pointing fingers at him about burn out. I was talking in general. About kids in general. That is why I asked how many kids on average that are at the top now, are still there in high school. Like I said, don`t take any offense towards me because I was not talking about Brock. I was however talkking about Indiana having qualifiers for the two teams they always take. I feel like many others do, that when people start taking multiple teams to these events it waters down our talent. If Indiana puts the two best teams with the best talent on them, we will do a lot more for our programs. If it is a middle school tournament and they are not in middle school, they don`t wrestle. I guess I must be slow because I just don`t understand the thought process. I guess an old paramedic has a slower thought process than a teacher. I did wrestle when I was younger and also boxed in the golden gloves as well as in the Marine Corps. I just don`t want to say how many pounds ago that was. I also played football for many years. I know I don`t have as many years around wrestling as some but I don`t think you have to be to understand the concept of rules that govern meets. Thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestler09 Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Looks like there are rules in place to take care of this issue....sounds like the 5th graders are not allowed to wrestle. So.....can we please get back to talking about the kids that will be wrestling? This is a Middle School State post and i don't see anything about the kids that will be wrestling! All I see is a bunch of dads complaining about the rules. So who are some of the wrestlers to watch and what weights are they going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMAWRESTLER Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 Looks like there are rules in place to take care of this issue....sounds like the 5th graders are not allowed to wrestle. So.....can we please get back to talking about the kids that will be wrestling? This is a Middle School State post and i don't see anything about the kids that will be wrestling! All I see is a bunch of dads complaining about the rules. So who are some of the wrestlers to watch and what weights are they going? Start a new topic then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdwn2 Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I find it very funny that some of the people that were screaming for us to join forces and become unified as a state for the elementary duals are the same people that are now considering taking their own team to the middle school duals. I think the ISWA is looking at the big picture and if they say 6th grade and above , then do not try to go around our state rules when they do not match what is best for you. I also had a 5th grader that might have been able to make the team, but when we checked into it and they said no we just went and watched. Connor Mullins could have been on it for probably 3 or 4 years but Joe followed the rules. I really believe that we do need to stay committed to the ISWA and their board to make our state better. If you don't like their rules then you should join the board and try and get them changed. After seeing some of the eighth graders at this tournament I agree with the ISWA rule. Their is a big difference between 5th graders and 8th graders and that is why USA wrestling has two year weight classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I think if it is billed as a Middle School tournament, then only those kids eligible to wrestle with their middle school should be allowed to participate. Otherwise, why not let a really great 7th or 8th grade wrestler into the HS Sectional tournament? Why not let 4th and 5th graders that are great participate in Middle School dual meets against other schools? I'm sure with the opportunities available in the youth wrestling programs, there are some unbelievably talented 4th and 5th graders out there. Their time to shine at the Middle School level will come. Until then, my opinion is that they should continue to make the best of the opportunities and challenges appropriate to their age/grade level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 base, One problem that we have in middle school is that there are no rules or governing body. Many school systems allow 4th and 5th graders to wrestle on their middle school teams, and some do not allow them to wrestle. There is a lot of confusion when it comes to middle school wrestling and its procedures and policies. I know I get confused about all the different weight classes that schools have and theire various weigh-in policies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
base Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 base, One problem that we have in middle school is that there are no rules or governing body. Many school systems allow 4th and 5th graders to wrestle on their middle school teams, and some do not allow them to wrestle. There is a lot of confusion when it comes to middle school wrestling and its procedures and policies. I know I get confused about all the different weight classes that schools have and theire various weigh-in policies. Thanks for the explanation AJ, I didn't realize that middle schools were allowing the 4th/5th graders to wrestle in competition. Yikes, what a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlittlejohn Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 base, One problem that we have in middle school is that there are no rules or governing body. Many school systems allow 4th and 5th graders to wrestle on their middle school teams, and some do not allow them to wrestle. There is a lot of confusion when it comes to middle school wrestling and its procedures and policies. I know I get confused about all the different weight classes that schools have and theire various weigh-in policies. Thanks for the explanation AJ, I didn't realize that middle schools were allowing the 4th/5th graders to wrestle in competition. Yikes, what a mess. AJ is right on point, middle school is a mess. When I contract for a middle school event, I request information on weigh-in procedures/modificaitons (some schools don't even weigh-in they just match up), how many weight classes, will there be reserve/exhibition matches (I've done as many as 35+ matches at a dual meet, makes for a very long night). I have seen a number of schools use 5th grade & below wrestlers in middle school events, sadly, in some cases it has just been to receive forfeits and not intend to ever wrestle a bout. I think this goes against the spirit of competition. Classification/divisions/age groups are put into place not only for the benefit and protection of the competitors but also to aid in the administration of events and to establish firm cut-offs to eleminate gray areas in elegibilty. When hard-lines are set and enforced it is difficult to argue, however; once exceptions are made, precidence is set for the next arguement and the rules and regulations start to break down. But, as AJ stated there is no governing body for middle school, however, there is a governing body in the ISWA & USA Wrestling and those rules & regs shall be followed and enforced, as someone else stated, if you don't like the rules get involved at a higher level and participate in the official process of making change. Fresh ideas are always welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Great post jlittlejohn. For the record, I would like to say that when it comes to rules and procedures, I, and my school district, try to adhere to the IHSAA policies as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TossYaHard Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Rex...AJ at Middle School State is it going to be line bracketts or vertical pairing??? if line, is it going to be a wrestle back to 3rd or back to a true 2nd. Just wondering?? Jeff Negrelli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I believe that the uproar was about a gentleman wanting to take his fifth grader and a team made up of other Indiana wrestlers to a tournament. Indiana takes two teams as a general rule. The two teams are determined by the finish at middle schooll state as you all know. I think the question should be is this. Does the tournament that the third team would be going to, even allow fifth graders to compete? I still feel that by taking additional teams to these tournaments, waters down our talent. I believe that in some instances, younger wrestlers would wipe the mat with some older wrestlers. The problem is, rules are rules. What kind of example are we setting if we try to change them when they don`t benefit us? FC does not allow sixth graders to wrestle for their middle school team. I tried to fight that last year because predominantly the contemporaries in the county do allow sixth graders. My efforts were fruitless and he had to wait for this year. Their time will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Rex...AJ at Middle School State is it going to be line bracketts or vertical pairing??? if line, is it going to be a wrestle back to 3rd or back to a true 2nd. Just wondering?? Jeff Negrelli It has been folkstyle brackets in the past, with a wrestle back to a true second. I have not heard of any changes in this format for this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts