GrecoCoach

You are correct, it was in reference to that comment.  Last year Disney was the week after Junior Duals or right at the same time, if I remember correct.  There were a good chunk of national guys at this also, I believe that most of the kids on our team wrestled  1-2 state champs and/or a nationally ranked kid. This year Disney is earlier so I would even say there is a chance that the competition there might even be better, because kids might go to this before heading to Junior duals.  You had a better argument if you asked where did you blast them, because your more chastised and shamed them for choosing Disney over Junior Duals.  Sad part is that some of these kids could do both, but I'm not sure they will now. 
 
There seems to be a lot of ethical, questionable things going on behind the scenes.  I do feel this is getting blown out of proportion and is giving people a bad taste about all of us and the ISWA. I know that everyone that is posting for the most part are putting in their time to try to make all aspects of wrestling better.  Some peoples specialties are in different area's and your position is not an easy one by any means.  I get the feeling that it doesn't matter what anyone has to say or suggest to you because you think you have the answers and things in progress to solve the problem of the declining numbers. The part I fear is that it will end up being dumped on the coaches, clubs and all of us questioning the rules as the numbers continue to decline.  We (complainers as we have been referred as) are already being blamed for no wavers this year.  I am broken hearted for I fear your PRIDE of the belief you have things going the right way will be the continued decrease in Freestyle/Greco numbers and talent.
 
Now for the disclaimer because I know from you previous post that you are going to say something about this so let me cover it!  I am not saying everything the ISWA is doing is bad, hurting the sport or wrong to even try.  Some of the things and ideas you guys do are wonderful. You guys do a great job of getting great coaches to coach these Indiana teams and I think that ISWA does great at running big tournaments like (Folkstyle State). If you need me to continue about other great things you do than just say so and I will (I know you are going to say it doesn't matter to you, but I know it does as it should. I do a self inventory all the time and it is good to get feed back both ways).  The issues that I bring up are ones that I see affecting my small bubble, seems other have the same thing going on in their bubble.  You coach in a different area, an area with schools the size of some of our towns.  That to me is easily proven by how many clubs are around and in Indy, I can think of about 4-5 real good clubs. I, like you feel clubs/programs are started from the bottom up, which is why that is where you will find me in a few years. 
 
I plead to you to please take a long, hard, deep look at some of the things that have been brought up by a lot of us over the last few weeks.  We are not here to work against you, well I am not, but I feel ISWA needs to start thinking out of the box because not everything that works for others will work for all states and/or programs.  Just because another state is doing things a certain way is not a reason to stick with things that are not working in our state.  Maybe they have always done it that way or maybe when they changed to the way they are doing it now, it is better than the way it was before the change.  Like most relationships, all are different and different things work and succeed differently for different people, groups or state.

Kudos on all your accomplishments.  And thank you for your service to our country.  (Please don't take those as sarcasm, they aren't.)
 
My point is that Nick is the one person who is doing what you want... providing information and communication.  Hating on him isn't going to make other board members want to come seeking your personal opinions.
 
You have the right to your own opinion about the ISWA.  Based on your personal experiences with them, I can see why you have these views.  I just disagree with you about their transparency and business model.  All the information you want is available - website, meeting minutes, annual report, club reps, section reps, and a white book that gets mailed to every member.  And no company lets customers make their business decisions - the leadership makes decisions based on what is best for its stakeholders (customers and shareholders).  Sometimes those decisions don't work as expected and require more changes.  I trust that the ISWA will listen and recognize the adjustments that need to be made.

You're right. This should have been publicized sooner. Wait. It was! Coach Hull posted about this months ago where it was discussed. There was some resistance as you thought there'd be. Don't tell him to get his crap together when he is trying to represent the ISWA, provide information, communicate with some back-and-forth discussion, and make Indiana wrestling better.

You're right. This should have been publicized sooner. Wait. It was! Coach Hull posted about this months ago where it was discussed. There was some resistance as you thought there'd be. Don't tell him to get his crap together when he is trying to represent the ISWA, provide information, communicate with some back-and-forth discussion, and make Indiana wrestling better.

Here's (yet another) possible solution...
 
First, extend Freestyle/Greco season a few weeks. Move up Folkstyle state 2 weeks and push back Freestyle/Greco state 1 week.
 
3 ways to qualify for state:
A- On an ISWA team. Make a list of which teams auto qualify its members. These wrestlers all train seriously and will train for Freestyle specifically for state.
B- Place top 3 at one local tournament. Set criteria for what a qualifying tournament must be.
C- Participate at 3 local events (2 if season isn't extended). Wrestlers who can't qualify with A or B could use the extra experience and preparation before state.
 
Medical waivers are up for debate. For very rare circumstances, they can help. But they also open the door for abuse of the system.
 
Feel free to rip this idea apart or add to it.

What if...
 
The IHSWCA and IndianaMat cooperate and coordinate to field 3 teams all entered as state association teams sponsored by IndianaMat with the same cost for everyone.  
 
The top 2 teams are based on the normal criteria.  The 3rd team can be chosen by a committee with Joe as chairman.  All 3 teams get the same Gorillas gear (different singlet colors for each team).  Bigger bulk ordering would lower the cost for everyone.
 
The staff of coaches could float to other mats in order to coach their own wrestlers.  It might be necessary to have one head coach or team leader per team that would stay with them for all the duals.  But the rest of the hall of famers and good lookers could help work with everyone.
 
Could this be a solution?

What if...
 
The IHSWCA and IndianaMat cooperate and coordinate to field 3 teams all entered as state association teams sponsored by IndianaMat with the same cost for everyone.  
 
The top 2 teams are based on the normal criteria.  The 3rd team can be chosen by a committee with Joe as chairman.  All 3 teams get the same Gorillas gear (different singlet colors for each team).  Bigger bulk ordering would lower the cost for everyone.
 
The staff of coaches could float to other mats in order to coach their own wrestlers.  It might be necessary to have one head coach or team leader per team that would stay with them for all the duals.  But the rest of the hall of famers and good lookers could help work with everyone.
 
Could this be a solution?

They aren't crowning a champion.  They are selecting who would best represent their country at the sport's most elite competition.  Just because a guy has a good day doesn't mean he will compete better against the rest of the world.
 
A better comparison would be a returning state champ not having to wrestle-off for the spot on his high school team the next year.

They aren't crowning a champion.  They are selecting who would best represent their country at the sport's most elite competition.  Just because a guy has a good day doesn't mean he will compete better against the rest of the world.
 
A better comparison would be a returning state champ not having to wrestle-off for the spot on his high school team the next year.

They aren't crowning a champion.  They are selecting who would best represent their country at the sport's most elite competition.  Just because a guy has a good day doesn't mean he will compete better against the rest of the world.
 
A better comparison would be a returning state champ not having to wrestle-off for the spot on his high school team the next year.

They aren't crowning a champion.  They are selecting who would best represent their country at the sport's most elite competition.  Just because a guy has a good day doesn't mean he will compete better against the rest of the world.
 
A better comparison would be a returning state champ not having to wrestle-off for the spot on his high school team the next year.

I was an ISWA board member for 12 years. No decision is made lightly. Lots of thought, discussion, and debate goes into everything they do. For your specific circumstances, it might not make sense. For the good of the future of the state, it does. If I was still on the board, I would have voted for this. I hope the ISWA doesn't repeat what they did last year and give last second waivers. Two years in a row will completely ruin their reputation for a long time. They should stand by the decision they made that is best for the whole state in the long run, not just what is good for your wrestler now.
 
Again, all these tournaments you're referring to are folkstyle, not freestyle. Practicing freestyle and competing in freestyle are very different training and preparation for the bigger tournaments. The point is to get more and better competition at the local tournaments to help everyone improve. It's not a change that is going to happen overnight. It's going to take a couple of years to get local tournaments back to the way they were 10+ years ago. I remember easily getting 6-8 matches every Saturday at the local events. We can get back to that, but not with your mindset that your kid is too good for that. When I coached Sliga, he had to attend local tournaments to qualify for state. That's the way it was so he did it. He didn't ask for an exemption because he was on travel teams and won national championships. He simply found a way to meet the requirements as they were set.

I was an ISWA board member for 12 years. No decision is made lightly. Lots of thought, discussion, and debate goes into everything they do. For your specific circumstances, it might not make sense. For the good of the future of the state, it does. If I was still on the board, I would have voted for this. I hope the ISWA doesn't repeat what they did last year and give last second waivers. Two years in a row will completely ruin their reputation for a long time. They should stand by the decision they made that is best for the whole state in the long run, not just what is good for your wrestler now.
 
Again, all these tournaments you're referring to are folkstyle, not freestyle. Practicing freestyle and competing in freestyle are very different training and preparation for the bigger tournaments. The point is to get more and better competition at the local tournaments to help everyone improve. It's not a change that is going to happen overnight. It's going to take a couple of years to get local tournaments back to the way they were 10+ years ago. I remember easily getting 6-8 matches every Saturday at the local events. We can get back to that, but not with your mindset that your kid is too good for that. When I coached Sliga, he had to attend local tournaments to qualify for state. That's the way it was so he did it. He didn't ask for an exemption because he was on travel teams and won national championships. He simply found a way to meet the requirements as they were set.

15 minutes was not set by the ISWA.  It has been a USAW rule for quite a few years now.  It was researched and determined to be safe by the insurance company that covers the sports insurance for the wrestlers and the liability insurance for the tournaments.  It's also the way the Olympics and World Championships operate, and they have a lot more intense matches with less 30 second pins.
 
If the IHSAA (who follows the NFHS rules) ever hosted a tournament with 2100 wrestlers and over 20 mats, they would run into a huge problem with the 45 minutes wait time causing longer tournaments with idle mats at the end of the day.  Some sectionals have to take a break after the first pigtail round to make sure they get 45 minutes.  To me, that is "ridiculous".

15 minutes was not set by the ISWA.  It has been a USAW rule for quite a few years now.  It was researched and determined to be safe by the insurance company that covers the sports insurance for the wrestlers and the liability insurance for the tournaments.  It's also the way the Olympics and World Championships operate, and they have a lot more intense matches with less 30 second pins.
 
If the IHSAA (who follows the NFHS rules) ever hosted a tournament with 2100 wrestlers and over 20 mats, they would run into a huge problem with the 45 minutes wait time causing longer tournaments with idle mats at the end of the day.  Some sectionals have to take a break after the first pigtail round to make sure they get 45 minutes.  To me, that is "ridiculous".

15 minutes was not set by the ISWA.  It has been a USAW rule for quite a few years now.  It was researched and determined to be safe by the insurance company that covers the sports insurance for the wrestlers and the liability insurance for the tournaments.  It's also the way the Olympics and World Championships operate, and they have a lot more intense matches with less 30 second pins.
 
If the IHSAA (who follows the NFHS rules) ever hosted a tournament with 2100 wrestlers and over 20 mats, they would run into a huge problem with the 45 minutes wait time causing longer tournaments with idle mats at the end of the day.  Some sectionals have to take a break after the first pigtail round to make sure they get 45 minutes.  To me, that is "ridiculous".

15 minutes was not set by the ISWA.  It has been a USAW rule for quite a few years now.  It was researched and determined to be safe by the insurance company that covers the sports insurance for the wrestlers and the liability insurance for the tournaments.  It's also the way the Olympics and World Championships operate, and they have a lot more intense matches with less 30 second pins.
 
If the IHSAA (who follows the NFHS rules) ever hosted a tournament with 2100 wrestlers and over 20 mats, they would run into a huge problem with the 45 minutes wait time causing longer tournaments with idle mats at the end of the day.  Some sectionals have to take a break after the first pigtail round to make sure they get 45 minutes.  To me, that is "ridiculous".

I was an ISWA board member for 12 years. No decision is made lightly. Lots of thought, discussion, and debate goes into everything they do. For your specific circumstances, it might not make sense. For the good of the future of the state, it does. If I was still on the board, I would have voted for this. I hope the ISWA doesn't repeat what they did last year and give last second waivers. Two years in a row will completely ruin their reputation for a long time. They should stand by the decision they made that is best for the whole state in the long run, not just what is good for your wrestler now.
 
Again, all these tournaments you're referring to are folkstyle, not freestyle. Practicing freestyle and competing in freestyle are very different training and preparation for the bigger tournaments. The point is to get more and better competition at the local tournaments to help everyone improve. It's not a change that is going to happen overnight. It's going to take a couple of years to get local tournaments back to the way they were 10+ years ago. I remember easily getting 6-8 matches every Saturday at the local events. We can get back to that, but not with your mindset that your kid is too good for that. When I coached Sliga, he had to attend local tournaments to qualify for state. That's the way it was so he did it. He didn't ask for an exemption because he was on travel teams and won national championships. He simply found a way to meet the requirements as they were set.

The point is not to compare our own big school vs small school.  (not all small school champs and placewinners are going to be "inferior" to the big school ones)
 
The point is to compare our small school wrestlers with the achievements of small school wrestlers from other states.  Indiana's are just as good, if not better, than most from other states.  But those small school wrestlers from other states with classed wrestling are getting the attention and offers that ours are not.  This will result in more college opportunities for our wrestlers now.  When they graduate and (some) come back to Indiana, that will increase our overall level in the future.

The point is not to compare our own big school vs small school.  (not all small school champs and placewinners are going to be "inferior" to the big school ones)
 
The point is to compare our small school wrestlers with the achievements of small school wrestlers from other states.  Indiana's are just as good, if not better, than most from other states.  But those small school wrestlers from other states with classed wrestling are getting the attention and offers that ours are not.  This will result in more college opportunities for our wrestlers now.  When they graduate and (some) come back to Indiana, that will increase our overall level in the future.

Ignore the Statistics - The results change based on personal agendas, starting points, who goes where, etc. (sorry Joe).  Over 10 pages of posts and multiple topics each year show that people are going to disagree about which statistics are the most valid and should be used.
 
Ignore the Emotions - History and tradition are great, but times change.  If we never make progress and try new things, then we'd still be walking to school uphill both ways.  The "good old days" are just that - good but old.
 
What Is Important - College coaches across the country want us to go to classes.  It's not to water down our tournament.  It's so they can better compare Indiana's best to wrestlers from other states.  A kid who maybe qualifies for state once or twice could become a 2 or 3 time placewinner or state champ.  That wrestler is going to end up on multiple college coaches' radars.  College coaches from schools of all sizes are going to know to watch that wrestler at national events and contact him.  When I was in high school, I qualified for state three times and placed twice.  I got to wrestle in the IN-IL duals.  The guy I wrestled was a 3-time small school state champ in the same weights that I was at.  I majored him, even though he had gotten DI offers from schools I was also interested in but never heard from them.  The college exposure that classing our state tournament would provide would help our wrestlers immediately and improve our talent level in the future when some of those college wrestlers come back to Indiana to coach.  I know we are way behind the best states when it comes to high school and junior high coaches with college wrestling experience.
 
Who Makes the Decision - We can argue all we want here, but the IHSAA ultimately has the final decision.  One way to convince them is to have almost all coaches to agree.  That obviously isn't going to happen with this, and without 100% membership in the coaches association, the IHSWCA doesn't have as much influence as they do in other sports.  There is another way to convince the IHSAA that a change is needed, but I don't know what that is.  Basketball changed to classes with similar split opinions.  Something changed the minds of the IHSAA.  If we can find out what that was, then that's the best avenue to take to make it happen again.  It will probably take a group effort with the other "individual" sports to change the stubborn old school beliefs of the IHSAA.  We might have to wait until the next regime change, though.

You really don't know what a "darkhorse" is.  You also seem confused about what an "upset" is.  Nobody can really call Parris, Davison, or Lee "darkhorses" or "upsets" when about half of the predictions have them winning.  (You're mention of Sliga over Berry easily falls into the same category.)

Early in the video, the ref stopped the action and talked to both of them before the restart.  If the ref was warning both of them about the aggressive "heavy hands", then the DQ is definitely warranted.  

Early in the video, the ref stopped the action and talked to both of them before the restart.  If the ref was warning both of them about the aggressive "heavy hands", then the DQ is definitely warranted.  

Early in the video, the ref stopped the action and talked to both of them before the restart.  If the ref was warning both of them about the aggressive "heavy hands", then the DQ is definitely warranted.