Does Indiana Wrestling Need Divisions?

[Unknown Caller]

5 hours ago, AndyStJ said:

Wrestle backs you say? What an interesting idea. 

 

Please tell me, have any other states implemented these "wrestle backs" , or would Indiana be the first?

only the real states do it

[Disco]

Divisions….Hmmmm. Now that’s a novel idea. 
“Class” wrestling? Not good!

[TeamGarcia]

13 hours ago, Galagore said:

I cannot express how sad I am to be reading this thread so late.

 

Yes, we should absolutely have divisions. Small schools are not playing the same game large schools are and should not be competing against them in the same tournament.

 

We don't make the team sports do that, so making the individual sports do it makes very little sense.

 

You can search galagore for all of my other logic. I am too sad to post it all right now.

 Next year I’m nominating my guy @Galagore for HOF for his perseverance on these Topics . About every year some rookie poster brings it up and this Galagore throws some haymakers on these  

“CLASS WRESTLING” “DIVISIONS” 

 

He’s right, only time he posts is State Time and his most popular topics being , I hate to say it. I may not like what I’m reading but …. You got my respect  

 

 

[Coach Beezy]

The thing that separates us from other states is NOT having class wrestling. While this maybe something that is frowned upon from others, it's what makes us (Indiana) unique! I haven't heard of other states that have class wrestling compete in a true "tournament of champions," 

[Y2CJ41]

15 minutes ago, Coach Beezy said:

The thing that separates us from other states is NOT having class wrestling. While this maybe something that is frowned upon from others, it's what makes us (Indiana) unique! I haven't heard of other states that have class wrestling compete in a true "tournament of champions," 

Many states have tried some sort of champions tournament and they all have failed. It would be the same thing as us running state back two weeks later and asking everyone to "prove it" with their title runs. I would guess there are around 100 wrestlers who would love a redo on their state finals and to improve their placement or get revenge for a loss they took.

 

If a kid wants to prove he's the best in a classed state he will prove it at events during the season such as Al Smith, Mooresville, and others, prove it at ISWA events, or go out and place high at national events. 

 

Why aren't we having Rochester, Delta, and Floyd Central wrestle Crown Point after team state? Do we want to crown them champions, but then the next week say... "well you aren't really the champion?" How asinine is that?

[Y2CJ41]

15 hours ago, AndyStJ said:

Wrestle backs you say? What an interesting idea. 

 

Please tell me, have any other states implemented these "wrestle backs" , or would Indiana be the first?

Just work harder, if you put in the time during the off-season you are the bad draw and don't have to worry about losing.

The ticket round is a part of our culture and the most exciting round. Semi-state would be boring with wrestle-backs.

Life isn't fair, get over it.

 

[Wrestling Bill Walton]

2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Many states have tried some sort of champions tournament and they all have failed. It would be the same thing as us running state back two weeks later and asking everyone to "prove it" with their title runs. I would guess there are around 100 wrestlers who would love a redo on their state finals and to improve their placement or get revenge for a loss they took.

 

If a kid wants to prove he's the best in a classed state he will prove it at events during the season such as Al Smith, Mooresville, and others, prove it at ISWA events, or go out and place high at national events. 

 

Why aren't we having Rochester, Delta, and Floyd Central wrestle Crown Point after team state? Do we want to crown them champions, but then the next week say... "well you aren't really the champion?" How asinine is that?

Well you do make some good points.

[MatTime]

A lot of matches happen again at ISWA state due to it being a qualifier for Fargo. Different style but still has rematch-esque implications.

 

It is hard to win in this state. I understand the want to give more opportunities for more champions. Not having a room full of partners that create the environment to create champs is tough. But I think our HS coaches are good and bring in wrestlers for their contenders to get better. The coaches are encouraging their wrestlers to get offseason work in and to seek out competition out of state. The academies are having a huge effect on the quality of wrestling. There are programs that are going to be stacked with talent coming up in the next few seasons. Be wary of Indiana Creek, New Pal, and Noblesville. 

 

I think their is a struggle at the lower weights to get quality partners, but many schools are doing well at the higher weights. Several schools had their first champs or first placers in the last tourney. Not impossible.

 

I wonder if the issue is less about class/division wrestling and more about wanting parity in the numbers of placers and champs.

[Galagore]

15 minutes ago, MatTime said:

A lot of matches happen again at ISWA state due to it being a qualifier for Fargo. Different style but still has rematch-esque implications.

 

It is hard to win in this state. I understand the want to give more opportunities for more champions. Not having a room full of partners that create the environment to create champs is tough. But I think our HS coaches are good and bring in wrestlers for their contenders to get better. The coaches are encouraging their wrestlers to get offseason work in and to seek out competition out of state. The academies are having a huge effect on the quality of wrestling. There are programs that are going to be stacked with talent coming up in the next few seasons. Be wary of Indiana Creek, New Pal, and Noblesville. 

 

I think their is a struggle at the lower weights to get quality partners, but many schools are doing well at the higher weights. Several schools had their first champs or first placers in the last tourney. Not impossible.

 

I wonder if the issue is less about class/division wrestling and more about wanting parity in the numbers of placers and champs.

Everything you are saying is correct...however, at a small school, it is difficult in good conscience to truly push kids to wrestle to get better in the spring. They are busy making sure our baseball, softball, track, and golf teams are as competitive as possible. How would I feel if the baseball coach was leveraging the wrestlers to start tuning their arms up in January? It would p*@# me off. And of course big schools also share athletes. However, if the wrestlers at small schools focus on one sport, the other sports don't do poorly - they cease to exist. Small schools are playing a differnt game. That's why team sports are classed. There is no difference for individual sports. Everyone has to block another individual in football. Everyone has to mark another individual in soccer. You get where I am going here.

[piscis1956]

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

 

If a kid wants to prove he's the best in a classed state he will prove it at events during the season such as Al Smith, Mooresville, and others, prove it at ISWA events, or go out and place high at national events. 

 

An individual kid doesn’t have much say in his team’s schedule, and I doubt too many schools make out their schedule with one kid in mind.   So I don’t think a kid can make the decision to “prove it” at Al Smith or other in season tournaments.  They can at out of season tournaments though.

Edited March 4 by piscis1956

[piscis1956]

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Just work harder, if you put in the time during the off-season you are the bad draw and don't have to worry about losing.

The ticket round is a part of our culture and the most exciting round. Semi-state would be boring with wrestle-backs.

Life isn't fair, get over it.

 

Not sure how wrestlebacks would make it less exciting.  Even with wrestlebacks, there would be a “ticket round”.

 

That said, I agree that life surely isn’t fair.

[aoberlin]

13 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Everything you are saying is correct...however, at a small school, it is difficult in good conscience to truly push kids to wrestle to get better in the spring. They are busy making sure our baseball, softball, track, and golf teams are as competitive as possible. How would I feel if the baseball coach was leveraging the wrestlers to start tuning their arms up in January? It would p*@# me off. And of course big schools also share athletes. However, if the wrestlers at small schools focus on one sport, the other sports don't do poorly - they cease to exist. Small schools are playing a differnt game. That's why team sports are classed. There is no difference for individual sports. Everyone has to block another individual in football. Everyone has to mark another individual in soccer. You get where I am going here.

This isn't just a small school problem. It's a kid and what are their goals problem. They will always find something else they can be doing other than grinding if they truly aren't bought in. Not saying small schools don't have challenges because they do. But I will also say they have some benefits. 

[MatTime]

13 minutes ago, Galagore said:

....at a small school, it is difficult in good conscience to truly push kids to wrestle to get better in the spring. ....

I get what you are saying. However, this does not take into consideration the trade-off it takes to get better. Those that are wrestling year round are giving up something.

 

Seems like your argument is that there should be class/division wrestling so that smaller school athletes do not have to make a choice between wrestling or the other sports. If an athlete wants to focus on one sport, they will sacrifice the same way the wrestlers at bigger schools do. 

[piscis1956]

12 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Everything you are saying is correct...however, at a small school, it is difficult in good conscience to truly push kids to wrestle to get better in the spring. They are busy making sure our baseball, softball, track, and golf teams are as competitive as possible. How would I feel if the baseball coach was leveraging the wrestlers to start tuning their arms up in January? It would p*@# me off. And of course big schools also share athletes. However, if the wrestlers at small schools focus on one sport, the other sports don't do poorly - they cease to exist. Small schools are playing a differnt game. That's why team sports are classed. There is no difference for individual sports. Everyone has to block another individual in football. Everyone has to mark another individual in soccer. You get where I am going here.

At some small schools, the best athletes often participate in 3 or even 4 sports … or even 5 sports. At my grandkids school, one girl was on the volleyball team, but ran cross-country on off-days.  I don’t remember now if she wax a basketball player or swimmer in the winter season.  However, in spring, she plays softball and then runs track on her off-days.

 

A boy in the same school is a running back in the fall, wrestler in winter, and baseball and track in spring. 
 

Yep, it is a different game.  

[Galagore]

2 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

This isn't just a small school problem. It's a kid and what are their goals problem. They will always find something else they can be doing other than grinding if they truly aren't bought in. Not saying small schools don't have challenges because they do. But I will also say they have some benefits. 

 

So large schools also worry about not having a baseball team because the wrestlers are all focusing on wrestling instead of baseball (or ____ spring/fall sport)?

 

My son is an example I can use. He isn't "finding something else they (he) can be doing other than grinding." He is pitching and catching for the baseball team and working hard at it. He will actually be going in a week or two early to start work with the varsity baseball team before his middle school team practices fully begin. It's baseball season, so I owe it to him and the baseball team to allow him to give that season his full attention, just like he was able to give the wrestling season his full attention.

 

What are some of the benefits of wrestling for a small school?

[Galagore]

3 minutes ago, MatTime said:

I get what you are saying. However, this does not take into consideration the trade-off it takes to get better. Those that are wrestling year round are giving up something.

 

Seems like your argument is that there should be class/division wrestling so that smaller school athletes do not have to make a choice between wrestling or the other sports. If an athlete wants to focus on one sport, they will sacrifice the same way the wrestlers at bigger schools do. 

 

At a small school, this decision doesn't just affect the individual. It affects the entire athletic program. And if we wrestling coaches at small schools promote to our kids that they should focus on wrestling and with the other teams, whatever happens happens...then that's just not being a good teammate from an athletic department perspective. And even if you can convince me that it is OK to just look out for your sport, what happens if all of the wrestling kids agree with me that they should focus on being as good as possible at one sport, and that sport isn't wrestling? Answer: the wrestling team will fold and there won't be wrestling anymore at Culver Community. I don't want that for wrestling and I don't want that for any of our programs.

[piscis1956]

1 minute ago, Galagore said:

 

So large schools also worry about not having a baseball team because the wrestlers are all focusing on wrestling instead of baseball (or ____ spring/fall sport)?

 

My son is an example I can use. He isn't "finding something else they (he) can be doing other than grinding." He is pitching and catching for the baseball team and working hard at it. He will actually be going in a week or two early to start work with the varsity baseball team before his middle school team practices fully begin. It's baseball season, so I owe it to him and the baseball team to allow him to give that season his full attention, just like he was able to give the wrestling season his full attention.

 

What are some of the benefits of wrestling for a small school?

It’s generally easier to make varsity at a small school I suppose.  You can participate in other sports and still make the wrestling team.

 

Not arguing your point, just offering a possible answer your last question.

[Galagore]

1 minute ago, piscis1956 said:

It’s generally easier to make varsity at a small school I suppose.  You can participate in other sports and still make the wrestling team.

 

Not arguing your point, just offering a possible answer your last question.

 

Then let me rephrase my question. In what way is it more beneficial to the success of an athlete participating in a non-classed individual sport at a small school competing in the state tournament?

[casualwrestlingfan]

My philosophy is why not have a classed individual tournament near the Mishawaka, Evansville, and etc time frame? Then go into team state after that, and then end the year with the current single class individual tournament. None of that tournament of champion crap where it won't guarantee a matchup happening. 

[Galagore]

1 minute ago, casualwrestlingfan said:

My philosophy is why not have a classed individual tournament near the Mishawaka, Evansville, and etc time frame? Then go into team state after that, and then end the year with the current single class individual tournament. None of that tournament of champion crap where it won't guarantee a matchup happening. 

 

Good in theory, but as @Y2CJ41 has pointed out, has not worked in other states. Priority 1 (on this topic) is getting to an individual classed tournament. If we can swing an "ultimate tournament" of some sort, great. But we should not forego the classed individual simply because we won't have a "true champion."

[Galagore]

2 hours ago, TeamGarcia said:

 Next year I’m nominating my guy @Galagore for HOF for his perseverance on these Topics . About every year some rookie poster brings it up and this Galagore throws some haymakers on these  

“CLASS WRESTLING” “DIVISIONS” 

 

He’s right, only time he posts is State Time and his most popular topics being , I hate to say it. I may not like what I’m reading but …. You got my respect  

 

 

 

Being referred to as "this Galagore" is my favorite thing about today so far.

[MatTime]

2 minutes ago, Galagore said:

It's baseball season, so I owe it to him and the baseball team to allow him to give that season his full attention, just like he was able to give the wrestling season his full attention.

 

This is a choice you are making. Your son participates in multiple sports for his school. That is great. But it is a choice you are making. 

 

I don't see a difference in athletes in either case. We can't blame the wrestler at any school for focusing on one sport while another athlete is making a choice to participate in several sports. Is this a loyalty issue then? Loyalty/pressure for the athlete to do multiple sports because they go to a smaller school? If they want to be multisport athletes, awesome, but the trade-off will likely be not reaching the level of performance that the athletes that focus on a single sport may achieve. There are always exceptions.

 

I wonder if Weaver from Rosseville only focused on wrestling.... That is a small school and his size would have been welcomed in many other sports. But did he choose to focus on wrestling in order to become a champ and prepare for the college level? 

[Galagore]

1 minute ago, MatTime said:

This is a choice you are making. Your son participates in multiple sports for his school. That is great. But it is a choice you are making. 

 

I don't see a difference in athletes in either case. We can't blame the wrestler at any school for focusing on one sport while another athlete is making a choice to participate in several sports. Is this a loyalty issue then? Loyalty/pressure for the athlete to do multiple sports because they go to a smaller school? If they want to be multisport athletes, awesome, but the trade-off will likely be not reaching the level of performance that the athletes that focus on a single sport may achieve. There are always exceptions.

 

I wonder if Weaver from Rosseville only focused on wrestling.... That is a small school and his size would have been welcomed in many other sports. But did he choose to focus on wrestling in order to become a champ and prepare for the college level? 

 

You are correct. We choose to support our athletic department, not just the wrestling team. We choose to have options for our student athletes, not just say, "fall sport is football or you're out of luck; winter sport is basketball or you're out of luck; spring sport is track or you're out of luck."

 

If this happens to the fullest extent, then many small school athletic teams across the board will fold. My guess is wrestling would not be one of the survivors in most schools. Do you think that is an adequate sacrifice to make sure everyone knows that they need to full give themselves to the sport to have a reasonable shot at winning a state medal?

 

[Galagore]

Additionally, everyone might say that it is an individual decision is correct. My initial argument is from the perspective of the person running the program. Should I just insist that the wrestlers keep grinding all spring and fall and say who cares what that means to the other sports teams? What if the other coaches did that to wrestling?

[casualwrestlingfan]

6 minutes ago, Galagore said:

 

Good in theory, but as @Y2CJ41 has pointed out, has not worked in other states. Priority 1 (on this topic) is getting to an individual classed tournament. If we can swing an "ultimate tournament" of some sort, great. But we should not forego the classed individual simply because we won't have a "true champion."

I thought he pointed out doing a tournament of champions after their classed tournaments but I could have read too quickly. I'm saying the classed tournaments would be like Mishawaka currently & in that time frame as a regular season event but would be nice to get it as a tournament per the IHSAA schedule rules. Then we can add to our finalists accomplishments in the single class  intros.