Cutting Weight vs. Managing Weight

[nkraus]

I am curious of your opinions on this topic.  Obviously, somebody mentioned that Hockaday didn't "cut weight," but do you feel its necessary to cut weight weight?  I'm in a coach's group message and we have awesome debates all the time. 

 

In my opinion there's a difference between cutting weight and managing weight.  For example, our champ, Chase Leech, weighed 182-184 pre season, and practiced a couple of days and was under 175.  When we arrived back to the hotel after the finals, Chase was 4 pounds under weight.  I would say Chase managed a weight and did not cut weight.  *This decision to go 175 was based on focussing on getting better at wrestling and not fighting the scale.

 

All of that being said, I don't think it's as possible to do what Chase did at the lighter weight classes.  (Hockaday would be the exception, and possibly Hockaday "managed" his weight as well.).   In many cases I think it can give a kid a mental edge if they have to do work to make a weight class...

 

Thoughts?

[GenHeavyHandz]

15 minutes ago, nkraus said:

I am curious of your opinions on this topic.  Obviously, somebody mentioned that Hockaday didn't "cut weight," but do you feel its necessary to cut weight weight?  I'm in a coach's group message and we have awesome debates all the time. 

 

In my opinion there's a difference between cutting weight and managing weight.  For example, our champ, Chase Leech, weighed 182-184 pre season, and practiced a couple of days and was under 175.  When we arrived back to the hotel after the finals, Chase was 4 pounds under weight.  I would say Chase managed a weight and did not cut weight.  *This decision to go 175 was based on focussing on getting better at wrestling and not fighting the scale.

 

All of that being said, I don't think it's as possible to do what Chase did at the lighter weight classes.  (Hockaday would be the exception, and possibly Hockaday "managed" his weight as well.).   In many cases I think it can give a kid a mental edge if they have to do work to make a weight class...

 

Thoughts?

*This decision to go 175 was based on focusing on getting better at wrestling and not fighting the scale. I think you answered your own question.  Weight management is the key in my opinion,  I'd rather focus on getting better: especially as a senior.  Get fat and happy and improve your technique, position and mindset.

Edited February 22 by GenHeavyHandz
spelling

[Bulldog89]

Easton was usually 1-2 lbs.  under Thursday-Friday.  Eating 3 times a day through the week.  Pick a weight, like you said Nick, that you can concentrate on getting better at wrestling and not loosing weight.  Made the most difference in Easton's success this year.  It does take some discipline on both the wrestlers and parents, but meal prepping was also a huge part of it.  We would cook all his meat (chicken, hamburger, steak, pork chops) on Sunday or Monday for the week and he would pack it for his lunches and take to school.

So many little things go into being successful and these are just a few.  It takes time also, this has been something me as a father, his mother and Easton have been trying to dial in for a few years now.  

[MUSKEEWRESTLER]

Great topic.   I understand weight management has always been a part of the sport.  I did it, my son did it in high school.  Where I have a problem is when we have youth/club coaches telling 2nd - 5th graders that they need to be managing, or even worse, cutting weight while their still developing.

[Bulldog89]

8 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

*This decision to go 175 was based on focusing on getting better at wrestling and not fighting the scale. I think you answered your own question.  Weight management is the key in my opinion,  I'd rather focus on getting better: especially as a senior.  Get fat and happy and improve your technique, position and mindset.

Good call on the MINDSET General!!  Believe in yourself, your training & your technique!!

[GenHeavyHandz]

1 minute ago, Bulldog89 said:

Good call on the MINDSET General!!  Believe in yourself, your training & your technique!!

Book me Mindset Clinics coming soon.

[nkraus]

18 minutes ago, Bulldog89 said:

Easton was usually 1-2 lbs.  under Thursday-Friday.  Eating 3 times a day through the week.  Pick a weight, like you said Nick, that you can concentrate on getting better at wrestling and not loosing weight.  Made the most difference in Easton's success this year.  It does take some discipline on both the wrestlers and parents, but meal prepping was also a huge part of it.  We would cook all his meat (chicken, hamburger, steak, pork chops) on Sunday or Monday for the week and he would pack it for his lunches and take to school.

So many little things go into being successful and these are just a few.  It takes time also, this has been something me as a father, his mother and Easton have been trying to dial in for a few years now.  

So here's another example I was looking for--It sounds like Easton "Managed" his weight rather than focussed a ton on cutting.

[Bulldog89]

5 minutes ago, nkraus said:

So here's another example I was looking for--It sounds like Easton "Managed" his weight rather than focussed a ton on cutting.

Other the the initial "cut"  which for him is not really a cut about 152 to 144.  For him cutting is just eating better and wrestling.  Getting around the knee surgeries when all he could do is lift pushed him a little.  He cut big his freshman year and it really hurt him late in the season.

[aoberlin]

Personally I believe it depends on the weight some and how naturally lean a wrestler is. 175 and above you may get away with not cutting and hanging close to 175 maybe even 165. My 175 weighed 165 and lost ticket round to someone who looked much bigger than him and we had a couple of positions we probably would have held if we were on weight or possibly floating over from time to time. My 190 weighed 176 at semi-state.  Under 175 I think you for the most part need to be lean and around your 7% body mass and actually be strong and not just a skinny rail. We can talk about position and mindset all day long which I think are the most important things. But if the kid doesn't have the strength to hold a position and execute a technique or defend an attack then you aren't winning titles. They have to be at a weight that makes sense for their body and the strength they have. We have been a non-cutting team for quite a while, I even forced a kid to go up a weight due to cutting too much, and I do feel like it has cost us some matches and kids not going as deep in the tournament as they could have. In the ideal world it would not matter but to say it doesn't just isn't living in reality. The size difference I see with some of our kids vs who they are wrestling is sometimes glaring. But... I also hate watching a kid suck weight 2 days before a match and use practice just to just cut weight and survive. Part of it may depend on just how natural of an athlete a wrestler is. 

 

We have also had plenty of kids that didn't get down to their fighting weight before the season or within striking distance and do the fat test and certify over what they naturally start weighing halfway through the season even though they say they are hammering food. So there is that to manage also.

 

With all that said our big focus this off-season is #1 Mindest, #2 Weights/Agility, #3 Chasing Competition, and #4 Technique. That isn't the order every team needs but that is what we need right now.

Kraus, I thought I explained this to you in our chat group. Also for a 175 Chase looked just fine and chiseled.

 

 

[MattM]

1 hour ago, Bulldog89 said:

.... just eating better....

And that is part about managing your weight that I think many HS kids and their parents don't get or at least aren't willing to fully buy into.  Some kids can eat 3 decent meals regularly, have occasional cheat meals, and even get stronger as the season progresses all while maintaining or even losing weight. But that's because they and their parents have made the effort to ensure they are eating better and continue to work hard during practice.   But, that's the off-the-mat dedication and mental game that some kids and parents have made the choice to buy into. 

 

We all hear about kids who say they can't make the weight though, but in some cases, I don't see that as a cutting issue, its poor off-the-mat decisions and lack of a buy-in to themselves, their team, and the sport.  We all have some kids who are choosing to routinely make poor food choice decisions, sometimes overindulge, and then trying to over-exercise and starve a day or two before weigh-ins.  We then often hear that same kid or parents say as the season progresses that they can't make the weight cut with most pointing out they are barely eating the last couple of days. To me, that is not a cutting weight issue it is a poor weight management issue.  We often have to concede this routine isn't going to change and tell the kid and parent they will need to move up a weight class.  But then low and behold most of those kids will balloon up close to the top of that new weight too and are still sluggish on the mat due to more bad eating habits. 

 

You can throw all sorts of nutrition talks and guides at them to help show that making better eating choices will improve their performance on the mat and make maintaining their weight all season possible.  You can even point out that this isn't about eating small portions or only choosing to eat "twigs and leaves" every meal, but about pre-planning food decisions to ensure you have good options available on a routine basis.  However, until the kids and parents (since they do provide some of those food choices to their kids have a better buy-in on the value of nutritious eating we will still hear some kids and parents talking about cutting too much weight and/or eating little days before the meet.   I also believe there are some effective ways to promote healthy eating habits and removing some of the extreme cutting, but part of that also comes from developing a culture where the other teammates and family understand what supporting each other really means.  

Edited February 22 by MattM

[AndyStJ]

At the absolute opposite end of the scale in pretty much every way, these are David Taylor's thoughts. Not so recommended for high school and lower ages. 15:03 if the embedded start time doesn't work. 

 

 

[jets]

Interesting topic and good read. Of course, most on here will cite examples of their Champs who didn't make a "hard cut" and point out that is the best possible route. 

 

Not many will have the guts to come on here and talk about the 1061/113/120 pounder who came down from 140+ to win his title. 

 

It is all relative ...

[aoberlin]

29 minutes ago, jets said:

Interesting topic and good read. Of course, most on here will cite examples of their Champs who didn't make a "hard cut" and point out that is the best possible route. 

 

Not many will have the guts to come on here and talk about the 1061/113/120 pounder who came down from 140+ to win his title. 

 

It is all relative ...

My son cut from 138 before this year's season to make 113 for Sectionals. Our first scratch weigh-in could only happen the week before Sectionals. He got rid of all his baby fat, and it was the best thing for him. He is a new kid. So yeah, I am happy to talk about it.  No titles were won though. 

 

That took allot of mama meal prepping.

But... you are absolutely right. We will get the veneer and the rarities. 

[BrodyHardcastle]

Little bro cut hard to 106 and 120 as a freshman and sophomore, he will even tell you he underachieved, got tired of beating the scale and fizzled out come postseason. He goes all the way up to 152 his last two years and wins two semi states. Junior year was no cut at all and could’ve made 145, senior year he managed well coming down from 160 ish and never had a problem with weight and looked great all year.  

Edited February 22 by BrodyHardcastle

[maligned]

Have you guys seen how enormous, explosive, and able to grind for 7 minutes that the top college guys are?  That is NOT possible with weigh-ins a couple hours before duals and multiple weigh-ins per week unless they're hanging out within a few pounds of their weight all the time. It's all shifted now. They're feeding these guys perfectly balanced, portioned-out nutrition and monitoring every bite at the top teams. And they're FULL GO every match and as-demanded in practice. Those physiques and that after-weigh-in energy output simply aren't possible if your nutrition isn't dialed in and if you aren't staying within a handful of pounds of your weight all the time. Weight "management" and zero calories that don't build and fuel you is the name of the game now.

[MattM]

The other thing that would help is wrestlers starting their weight management plan during the preseason.   Much easier to make a gradual drop that your body can handle over the course of a few months than trying to push to make a drop way into the season. 

[Justdo^it135]

Nearly 20-years ago, but my father selected the weight class I wrestled in each year. I did as told.

 

Fr: Cut from 140 preseason to compete at 112 - Lost SS Ticket Round 

So: Cut from 150 preseason to compete at 125 - Lost Friday Night

Jr: Cut from 160 preseason to compete at 140 - 5th Place (Was suppose to go 130 but injured my ankle preseason and couldn't run until the Al Smith)

Sr: Cut from 180 preseason to compete at 135 - Lost Friday Night

 

My kids do not and will not cut weight.

[Christopher Bohn]

My senior year in high school I cut from 225 to 189.  I was s beast the first few weeks until the weight cut hit me, then I was super weak.  It was the next year Illinois implemented the 215 weight class.  I had an all state heavyweight on my team, so if I wanted to wrestle, I needed to cut.  This year, CJ didn't cut or watch his during the off season.  He started the season around 165.  It wasn't hard for him to get to 150.  Looking at the 165 guys, Chris was really small to compete at that class.  You can tell the difference when he wrestled Mavros of Lowell. 

[Oldoriole71]

Unless it is mma, I think most guys who go up in weight typically perform exceptionally better from what I’ve seen. Most guys sucking down for same day weigh ins are so diminished during the dual. From experience, it isn’t even the strength, but the endurance goes out the window