Sectional Enrollment Discrepancy

[HornetSloan]

Quick Breakdown of the wrestlers making it out of the North Mont regional. Of the 29% of the Crawfordsville sectional, Zionsville makes up nearly half. Seems to me that if these two sectionals ere more "evenly" distributed with big and small schools, the final results going to semistate would be about the same. Some combination of Fishers, Carmel, HSE, Westfield, and Zionsville with some small school studs mixed in.  The effect would be maybe seeding of the Zionsville wrestlers since they would have stronger competition at sectionals, and maybe a few more Rossville or Prairie kids make it to regionals and a few less Parke Heritage kids. Big picture, it is really a wash. Though we pride ourselves in being in one of the tougher sectionals and competing hard with these big schools, and we tell ourselves the same line, "Ya gotta beat them eventually," sectional weekend would definitely be less soul sucking and demoralizing if we got even one or two more out each year. Of course, that would be at the expense of 1a schools in the Crawfordsville sectional, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make... 

 

 

	Crawfordsville	Frankfort		Zionsville
2023	20	36		8
2022	15	41		9
2021	13	43		7
2020	15	41		7
2019	17	39		5
	80	200	71%	36	45%

[piscis1956]

2 hours ago, rhayes said:

I have been told there was a group of 18 the voted unanimously on these changes. There were coaches on this committee, but who they are is a mystery.

Based on the changes, I can’t imagine you would have voted for it.

[tonyzirkle]

When did they start advancing 4 from sectional?  Back in 1988, only 2 advanced to regionals. It’s hard to justify a complaint about having only 1 6A team in your sectional when 4 advance. 

[MattM]

16 minutes ago, tonyzirkle said:

When did they start advancing 4 from sectional?  Back in 1988, only 2 advanced to regionals. It’s hard to justify a complaint about having only 1 6A team in your sectional when 4 advance. 

https://indianamat.com/index.php?/articles.html/high-school-news/history-of-the-state-tournament-r871/

[Y2CJ41]

12 minutes ago, MattM said:

https://indianamat.com/index.php?/articles.html/high-school-news/history-of-the-state-tournament-r871/

There's a website for that.

[tonyzirkle]

https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/2022-23 2023-24 Football Alignment.pdf
 

There are 32 6A enrollment football schools and 32 wrestling sectionals, so one 6A school in the Crawfordsville #17 wrestling sectional sounds about right. 
 

Wrestling Sectionals with 6A schools:

1. Lake Central 

2. Portage

3. Crown Point

4. 
5. Penn

6. Warsaw

7.

8. Lafayette Jefferson

9. Elkhart

10.

11. Carroll (F.W.), Northrop

12. Homestead

13.

14.

15.

16.

17. Zionsville

18. Carmel, Fishers, HSE, Westfield

19. Noblesville

20. Cathedral, Tech

21. Lawrence Central, Lawrence North, North Central, Perry Meridian, Southport

22. Franklin Central, Warren Central

23.

24.

25. Avon, Ben Davis, Brownsburg, Pike

26. Center Grove

27.

28.

29. Columbus North

30. Jeffersonville

31.

32.

 

The East Chicago semi-state with the first 8 sectionals looks the most balanced out if you only look at spreading out the 6A schools. The New Castle semi state route has been a tough route for small school teams for a while with 15/32 6A schools when 8 would be the expected average. 
 

I think cross country may have recently sent Fishers and/or HSE up to Fort Wayne for semi state before cc cancelled semi-state (like track) to balance things out bc the Noblesville regional was crazy competitive. 

[piscis1956]

2 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

There's a website for that.

Great article!  Captures a lot of interesting stuff.  Brought back a lot of memories.  I only noticed a couple minor errors, but they are very minor and don’t change the gist of the story.

[AlaskanMountie]

On 1/30/2024 at 4:41 AM, piscis1956 said:

I thought a lot of the intriguing realignments to sectionals and regionals for this season didn’t make sense.  I guess that just means I didn’t/don’t understand the motives and intent for those changes.  They didn’t seem to make sense from a geographical perspective or from a numbers or strength balancing perspective.  So your guess is as good as mine.

 

But if you think they should not put a 6A school in with a bunch of smaller schools, then my original response stands.  You should just be happy that they didn’t put more in and make your sectional even tougher.

 Nobody ever said 6A schools shouldn’t be with smaller schools. I have no idea where that came from. 

Edited February 1 by AlaskanMountie

[AlaskanMountie]

On 1/30/2024 at 1:35 PM, tonyzirkle said:

https://www.ihsaa.org/sites/default/files/documents/2022-23 2023-24 Football Alignment.pdf
 

There are 32 6A enrollment football schools and 32 wrestling sectionals, so one 6A school in the Crawfordsville #17 wrestling sectional sounds about right. 
 

Wrestling Sectionals with 6A schools:

1. Lake Central 

2. Portage

3. Crown Point

4. 
5. Penn

6. Warsaw

7.

8. Lafayette Jefferson

9. Elkhart

10.

11. Carroll (F.W.), Northrop

12. Homestead

13.

14.

15.

16.

17. Zionsville

18. Carmel, Fishers, HSE, Westfield

19. Noblesville

20. Cathedral, Tech

21. Lawrence Central, Lawrence North, North Central, Perry Meridian, Southport

22. Franklin Central, Warren Central

23.

24.

25. Avon, Ben Davis, Brownsburg, Pike

26. Center Grove

27.

28.

29. Columbus North

30. Jeffersonville

31.

32.

 

The East Chicago semi-state with the first 8 sectionals looks the most balanced out if you only look at spreading out the 6A schools. The New Castle semi state route has been a tough route for small school teams for a while with 15/32 6A schools when 8 would be the expected average. 
 

I think cross country may have recently sent Fishers and/or HSE up to Fort Wayne for semi state before cc cancelled semi-state (like track) to balance things out bc the Noblesville regional was crazy competitive. 

Yet 13 sectionals have zero 6a schools in them so your point is moot. A stronger argument would be to divide up the four in sectional 18 and send two to Crawfordsville but to say it makes sense for there to be one is illogical. 

[Galagore]

5 hours ago, AlaskanMountie said:

Yet 13 sectionals have zero 6a schools in them so your point is moot. A stronger argument would be to divide up the four in sectional 18 and send two to Crawfordsville but to say it makes sense for there to be one is illogical. 

 

Are you in favor of just classing the whole indivual tournament?

[HornetSloan]

4 hours ago, Galagore said:

 

Are you in favor of just classing the whole indivual tournament?

I think they are just saying, "Hey this is weird. Why'd they do that?"  Not everything has to be some grand argument. Some people (self included) just notice failures in logic and it bothers them. Just have a rhyme or reason is all we ask!

[Galagore]

Just now, HornetSloan said:

I think they are just saying, "Hey this is weird. Why'd they do that?"  Not everything has to be some grand argument. Some people (self included) just notice failures in logic and it bothers them. Just have a rhyme or reason is all we ask!

It's just a yes/no question. The logic of the thread seems to have a natural progression toward the class wrestling argument, which has been pointed out by more than one poster. Are you in favor of classing the individual tournament?

 

And since this seems to be more along the lines of what you wish to discuss, then maybe this is a question you are more comfortable answering:

Do you feel there is a failure in logic based on geography, school size or both?

[HornetSloan]

14 minutes ago, Galagore said:

It's just a yes/no question. The logic of the thread seems to have a natural progression toward the class wrestling argument, which has been pointed out by more than one poster. Are you in favor of classing the individual tournament?

 

And since this seems to be more along the lines of what you wish to discuss, then maybe this is a question you are more comfortable answering:

Do you feel there is a failure in logic based on geography, school size or both?

 

 

Well looks to me like they were trying to grab at least one BIG school when they were building that sectional. They kinda had to skip past Lebanon, reach out and scoop up Zionsville. I can see the challenge they were facing for sure. Brownsburg would actually make more sense to pull into that sectional than Carmel if they were hankering for another big school there in that sectional. Again, it doesn't necessarily bother me. I can just see the original reason the question was asked. 

 

As for class wrestling, I believe I have come to the personal conclusion that more postseason success for more kids equals more kids leave wrestling with a good taste in their mouths and a positive view of their experience. Which they then pass on to their progeny and whatnot. As a tiny 1A wrestler, I will always take pride in my relatively meager accomplishments, my sectional championship wins meant more to me knowing I was up against the big dogs. I know I would have most likely been a placer in class wrestling, but it doesn't necessarily hurt me or make me feel less happy about my career. But I am also obsessed with the sport and frankly, kids are different nowadays. I know for sure we would have better retention if these kids saw more tangible success, however "empty" that success may seem. 

[Galagore]

Thank you for the thorough response. We agree on the appropriateness of class wrestling. We disagree on the emptiness of class wrestling accomplishments.

 

I am not sure why or how the schools are, were, or will be placed into sectionals. However, it is hard to argue against this logic: If any of that decision is made based on school size then a future logical conclusion is a classed tournament.

[GrecoCoach]

36 minutes ago, Galagore said:

Thank you for the thorough response. We agree on the appropriateness of class wrestling. We disagree on the emptiness of class wrestling accomplishments.

 

I am not sure why or how the schools are, were, or will be placed into sectionals. However, it is hard to argue against this logic: If any of that decision is made based on school size then a future logical conclusion is a classed tournament.

When has the IHSAA ever made a decision based on "logic"?

[VisionQuest87]

Can someone please change the post to "Indiana needs class wrestling".  That is what I am getting from all the numbers, percentages etc. quoted on this post.  Don't really have an opinion either way.  But getting kind of tired of clicking and seeing the same numbers, percentages, etc. as to why we need class wrestling.  How about this, someone come up with a master plan as to how we get class wrestling in Indiana.  And let's move from talking about it to getting it done.   I have no clue what that would entail, but I know someone, way smarter than me, can figure it out.  I mean, come on, numbers don't lie.

[AlaskanMountie]

On 2/1/2024 at 4:23 AM, Galagore said:

 

Are you in favor of just classing the whole indivual tournament?

Yes, I’m in favor of class wrestling but that has nothing to do with my original post on this thread which is why send one 6a school to a sectional with all 1A/2a schools? If you want to pick another 6a school and send them to Cville with Zionsville, okay…that makes sense to me but sending just one does not. I could also see sending Lebanon to Cville instead of Zionsville when looking at geography. 

[Mitchell1993]

Fort Wayne Semi-State has only (4) 6A schools

 

East Chicago: (6)

 

New Castle: (15)

 

Evansville: (7)

[jasonbk2]

On 2/1/2024 at 12:01 PM, HornetSloan said:

 

 

Well looks to me like they were trying to grab at least one BIG school when they were building that sectional. They kinda had to skip past Lebanon, reach out and scoop up Zionsville. I can see the challenge they were facing for sure. Brownsburg would actually make more sense to pull into that sectional than Carmel if they were hankering for another big school there in that sectional. Again, it doesn't necessarily bother me. I can just see the original reason the question was asked. 

 

As for class wrestling, I believe I have come to the personal conclusion that more postseason success for more kids equals more kids leave wrestling with a good taste in their mouths and a positive view of their experience. Which they then pass on to their progeny and whatnot. As a tiny 1A wrestler, I will always take pride in my relatively meager accomplishments, my sectional championship wins meant more to me knowing I was up against the big dogs. I know I would have most likely been a placer in class wrestling, but it doesn't necessarily hurt me or make me feel less happy about my career. But I am also obsessed with the sport and frankly, kids are different nowadays. I know for sure we would have better retention if these kids saw more tangible success, however "empty" that success may seem. 

I live by WeBo and my brother lives next to Tri-West it is 9 minutes to his house. Lebanon is 8 minutes from my house. Zionsville is 15 minutes away. Lebanon and Tri-West should be  in the Crawfordsville sectional based on location IN MY OPINION.

[MattM]

3 hours ago, jasonbk2 said:

I live by WeBo and my brother lives next to Tri-West it is 9 minutes to his house. Lebanon is 8 minutes from my house. Zionsville is 15 minutes away. Lebanon and Tri-West should be  in the Crawfordsville sectional based on location IN MY OPINION.

On thing to always consider when determine most, not all locations, is actually the central geographic point of the sectional and then of the regional.  Most people want to determine where they “should go” based on the host site.  However, the actual school site is up to the IHSAA based on who even applies.  So it’s a better determination of where school would go, again in most cases, is to find a somewhat centralized geographic point.  Obviously schools on the boarder of those zones would be close to either district and possibly closer to the others host site.  Not to mention some roads are more direct or quicker than others when looking at what site would be more easily accesssble competes to which one is actually within your central geographic point.

 

 I didn’t look to see if that’s the case here, just pointing out a variable most people do overlook.  

 

And on a related note I do agree there needs to be a little location wiggle room to help disperse the number of teams and the number of athletes these teams bring on average a little more evenly. 

Edited February 3 by MattM