The case for "wins against the field" seeding

[Nate Spangle]

When I first saw the thread talking about seeding according to "wins against the field" I instantly thought that it was terrible. 

It seems fitting that it would come full circle to bite us at Sectional. 

 

Below is the 152 bracket at Arsenal Tech. 

 

The School of the Deaf is the 1 seed based on winning percentage. No common opponents and 0-0 against the field. 

 

Lawrence North is the 2 seed based on winning percentage. (No common opponents with Bragg.) 2-0 at least against the field. 

Cathedral is the 3 seed based on winning percentage. Also 2-0 against the field. 
 

Rushenberg is the 4 seed with 2 loses to Bragg and 1 to Phillips. But is 2-3 against the field. 

 

Mt. Vernon is the #5 seed based on winning percentage. (not positive his record against the field but i know they wrestle North Central) 

 

The #1 seed with no common opponents and a great record goes 0-2 on the day. 

 

Seeding with wins against the field would have been: 

1/2 Cathedral & LN
3/4 BC & MTV

5/6 NC & Brebeuf 

 

I immediately thought that wins against the field were a bad way to seed... but this is the first time I am seeing a case where they could make sense in some situations. 

[CoachAven]

I completely agree that this was an issue, as my wrestler at 152 is the one that got hurt most by the seeding. I do not think record versus the opponents in sectional is the best way to seed but I do think it should be a requirement that the team wrestles in at-least a dual or tournament with a school(s) in their sectional.  I am not sure why they do not wrestle in city or county based off their location. It makes it very hard to find common opponent and other teams in the sectional have tried to dual them and they have declined. It hurts 2 and 3 seed at the sectional and then also hurts the kid at the other regional as well. If a wrestler does not wrestle against one opponent or school (atleast entered at the same tournament) in their sectional, then I do not think they should be seeded. It also might sound stupid but why not wrestle a true second if you have not lost to the opponent that got second. It might add a total of 7 matches but could also solve some seeding issues heading into regional. We beat Kiner 12-2 during the year and then did not get a chance to wrestle him based off the bracket and he placed higher than us and advanced to semi-state the next weekend. The point of seeding meetings is to separate the best two wrestlers but when schools will not wrestle other schools in their sectional, this makes it impossible. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by CoachAven

[swain358]

Should be a requirement that each team in sectional wrestles each other in some type of dual format at some point in the season. Pretty simple but when it's brought up at seeding meetings, people think you are crazy or complaining. 

[Coach Brobst]

Not gonna hijack the thread here, but this issue is really a competitive balance issue. Small schools see it as a waste of their time to wrestle the larger schools in their sectional because they know they'll get stomped as a team and would prefer to wrestle others on their level. Most large schools also view it as a waste of their time because what do you prove by beating them, and also prefer to wrestle duals "on their level", especially with 2 wild cards for Team State up in the air in December and January used for Team State and Conference tourneys.

 

Furthering the problem is the fact that everyone knows that these head to heads are so important so a significant amount of ducking occurs in some of those match-ups. 

 

When I first took over at HSE, we went to a dual tourney at Frankfort that had 3-4 of our smaller Sectional opponents in it and we would leave every year with a bunch of 72-6 wins, but a couple of the schools knew they couldn't win as a team and their good kids would either be "hurt" when we'd wrestle them and they'd forfeit that weight or they would bump the kid to a different weight class to avoid the head to head. The coaches at those schools have all since changed and I don't think our current set would do that anymore but it was a good strategy for them and a waste of a day for us, so we got out of that one and sought better competition for our guys instead.

 

Not sure of the solution, but it's happening everywhere due to our all-in system.

 

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

39 minutes ago, swain358 said:

Should be a requirement that each team in sectional wrestles each other in some type of dual format at some point in the season. Pretty simple but when it's brought up at seeding meetings, people think you are crazy or complaining. 

Wrestling every team in your sectional should NOT be a requirement. Wrestling half the teams is much more feasible and realistic. Some schools have very limited ability to change their schedules around to get different matches due to conference and other committed events.

 

For instance, talking to Kraus at Garrett here is what they have.

Conference super dual

Conference tournament

Al Smith

Team State

Carroll super dual(required conference duals and some sectional)
Home Invitational

 

6 duals with conference or sectional opponents.

 

They do wrestle 6 of the 9 other schools, but would have to drop one of their other events to pick up the other three.

 

[randalllynch]

Wrestling everyone in our sectional would be very difficult since most teams are nearly 2 hours away.  That, along with parents wanting to see their kids against local teams as much as possible, much the same as basketball and football.  Logistics/conference obligations/IHSAA rules start to compete against each other very quickly.

Edited February 8, 2023 by randalllynch

[CoachAven]

Yeah, I am not asking to wrestle all of them but to not wrestle or refuse to wrestle any other (atleast enter the same individual tournaments) does not seem fair to me. 

[Y2CJ41]

2 minutes ago, CoachAven said:

Yeah, I am not asking to wrestle all of them but to not wrestle or refuse to wrestle any other (atleast enter the same individual tournaments) does not seem fair to me. 

Unfortunately the situation with the Deaf school is an extreme case. I believe they have a waiver to compete in some events outside the 300 mile radius and thus it hurts their ability to see more common opponents.

[CoachAven]

23 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Unfortunately the situation with the Deaf school is an extreme case. I believe they have a waiver to compete in some events outside the 300 mile radius and thus it hurts their ability to see more common opponents.

The fact that they do no compete at the City tournament, based off location is a little confusing to me. 

[Jcjcjc]

2 hours ago, Nate Spangle said:

When I first saw the thread talking about seeding according to "wins against the field" I instantly thought that it was terrible. 

It seems fitting that it would come full circle to bite us at Sectional. 

 

Below is the 152 bracket at Arsenal Tech. 

 

The School of the Deaf is the 1 seed based on winning percentage. No common opponents and 0-0 against the field. 

 

Lawrence North is the 2 seed based on winning percentage. (No common opponents with Bragg.) 2-0 at least against the field. 

Cathedral is the 3 seed based on winning percentage. Also 2-0 against the field. 
 

Rushenberg is the 4 seed with 2 loses to Bragg and 1 to Phillips. But is 2-3 against the field. 

 

Mt. Vernon is the #5 seed based on winning percentage. (not positive his record against the field but i know they wrestle North Central) 

 

The #1 seed with no common opponents and a great record goes 0-2 on the day. 

 

Seeding with wins against the field would have been: 

1/2 Cathedral & LN
3/4 BC & MTV

5/6 NC & Brebeuf 

 

I immediately thought that wins against the field were a bad way to seed... but this is the first time I am seeing a case where they could make sense in some situations. 

 

 

I used to think falling in track was a bad idea until I saw this race: 

 

 

 

 

[Coach Duncan]

47 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

Not gonna hijack the thread here, but this issue is really a competitive balance issue. Small schools see it as a waste of their time to wrestle the larger schools in their sectional because they know they'll get stomped as a team and would prefer to wrestle others on their level. Most large schools also view it as a waste of their time because what do you prove by beating them, and also prefer to wrestle duals "on their level", especially with 2 wild cards for Team State up in the air in December and January used for Team State and Conference tourneys.

 

Furthering the problem is the fact that everyone knows that these head to heads are so important so a significant amount of ducking occurs in some of those match-ups. 

 

When I first took over at HSE, we went to a dual tourney at Frankfort that had 3-4 of our smaller Sectional opponents in it and we would leave every year with a bunch of 72-6 wins, but a couple of the schools knew they couldn't win as a team and their good kids would either be "hurt" when we'd wrestle them and they'd forfeit that weight or they would bump the kid to a different weight class to avoid the head to head. The coaches at those schools have all since changed and I don't think our current set would do that anymore but it was a good strategy for them and a waste of a day for us, so we got out of that one and sought better competition for our guys instead.

 

Not sure of the solution, but it's happening everywhere due to our all-in system.

 

 

 

Not all small schools think it is a "waste of their time" to wrestle the larger schools in their sectional.  It all boils down to a coach and AD with common wrestling sense.  We have made a point to keep an evenly balanced schedule, wrestling several larger schools within our sectional and throughout the season.  It helps both our experienced and inexperienced guys on our team.  Currently, the only team we do not see in our sectional is Hamilton Heights.  We tried to work out a schedule this year for both schools, but could not find a fit.  Heights is loaded with talent, but we wanted to wrestle them for the competition and to see individuals head to head.  We have wrestled Pendleton Heights for several years, and picked up Noblesville, both in our sectional.  We understand going in, they are always two tough teams to beat, but why not chase the challenge?  Pendleton beat us earlier in the year, but we beat them towards the end of the regular season.  We see Delta, Greenfield Central, New Castle, Oak Hill, etc.  Again, not all small schools dodge the competition, from a team and individual standpoint.  Small schools that ONLY wrestle their level of competition or size of their school is hurting their program greatly.  We are fortunate to have a supportive AD who allows us to adjust our schedule as needed.  We have 10 teams in our sectional including us, we see 7 of the teams sometime throughout the year.  It took some time to get our schedule aligned, but it can be done.  It sure makes our sectional seeding meeting a breeze!    

[HawkinIndy]

Would the IHSAA ever consider expanding the points system from 18 to 20 or 22? That would allow teams to keep their schedules competitive as is while also inserting a couple sectional opponents they otherwise wouldn’t wrestle into their schedule.

[Y2CJ41]

2 minutes ago, HawkinIndy said:

Would the IHSAA ever consider expanding the points system from 18 to 20 or 22? That would allow teams to keep their schedules competitive as is while also inserting a couple sectional opponents they otherwise wouldn’t wrestle into their schedule.

No, they think we have too many matches as is. During the last 20 years they have regulated schools to having 4 dual meets and now 6 during the season.

[Coach Brobst]

1 minute ago, Coach Duncan said:

Not all small schools think it is a "waste of their time" to wrestle the larger schools in their sectional.  It all boils down to a coach and AD with common wrestling sense.  We have made a point to keep an evenly balanced schedule, wrestling several larger schools within our sectional and throughout the season.  It helps both our experienced and inexperienced guys on our team.  Currently, the only team we do not see in our sectional is Hamilton Heights.  We tried to work out a schedule this year for both schools, but could not find a fit.  Heights is loaded with talent, but we wanted to wrestle them for the competition and to see individuals head to head.  We have wrestled Pendleton Heights for several years, and picked up Noblesville, both in our sectional.  We understand going in, they are always two tough teams to beat, but why not chase the challenge?  Pendleton beat us earlier in the year, but we beat them towards the end of the regular season.  We see Delta, Greenfield Central, New Castle, Oak Hill, etc.  Again, not all small schools dodge the competition, from a team and individual standpoint.  Small schools that ONLY wrestle their level of competition or size of their school is hurting their program greatly.  We are fortunate to have a supportive AD who allows us to adjust our schedule as needed.  We have 10 teams in our sectional including us, we see 7 of the teams sometime throughout the year.  It took some time to get our schedule aligned, but it can be done.  It sure makes our sectional seeding meeting a breeze!    

Sure!

I'm not saying all small schools avoid competition, they don't and your program is certainly one that seeks it out, but I also understand that some schools aren't at that point competitively but may have a random kid or 2 that wins 30 matches. Not shaming them for it  at all, because how is your whole team getting better if you have 2 good kids that might get a good head to head but the other 12 get spanked with first period falls by a sectional opponent?

 

I can see that side of the argument, though I agree with you that seeking out the top competition, especially against sectional opponents, is in the best interest of the team if you're in that camp.

 

It's a tough balance for certain! Getting great matches for your best kids but also helping the program as a whole. The coaches and schools that balance that are the ones that do a great job year in and year out, Frankton being one of them!

 

 

[swain358]

Sectional Team Duals

Two pools, cross bracket for the last round. Everyone has wrestled each other or has at least a common opponent. One 2 point weigh in and its basically over. Not many crazy sectional bracket situations anymore. Doing this would also allow you to use the "wins vs sectional field" criteria as the last possible criteria if its needed. Sectionals with more than 10 teams, I would think we could figure out how to handle this situation somehow. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by swain358

[Jstephenson1356]

Yorktown is 2A and we wrestle a pretty tough schedule especially the front half of the year. We had 8 losses this year and 6 of them were to 3A and 4A schools. The other two were 2A team state teams in Norwell and Jay County. This year was better for seeding for us than last year. Strength of schedule plays a huge part in your record and we have been on the losing end of that a few times at the seeding meeting the last couple years. I will give an example that could have turned out very poorly.

Wrestler A was the 1 seed with 3 losses as a returning state qualifier

Wrestler B was the 2 seed with a 12-0 record

Wrestler C was the 3 Seed with 6 losses 1 coming to the 1 seed and 1 coming to the kid who beat the 1 seed twice. 

Had wrestler A not been a returning state qualifier we would have been the 3 seed with the actual 1 seed being the 2 so we would have met in the semi-finals.

We wrestled the undefeated wrestler in the semis and won 15-1. 

Not dogging on the undefeated kid at all as he beat everyone in front of him but I think strength of schedule needs to play a factor or at least making it so some of the competition has to have opponents within the sectional

Edited February 8, 2023 by Jstephenson1356

[Coach Duncan]

29 minutes ago, Coach Brobst said:

Sure!

I'm not saying all small schools avoid competition, they don't and your program is certainly one that seeks it out, but I also understand that some schools aren't at that point competitively but may have a random kid or 2 that wins 30 matches. Not shaming them for it  at all, because how is your whole team getting better if you have 2 good kids that might get a good head to head but the other 12 get spanked with first period falls by a sectional opponent?

 

I can see that side of the argument, though I agree with you that seeking out the top competition, especially against sectional opponents, is in the best interest of the team if you're in that camp.

 

It's a tough balance for certain! Getting great matches for your best kids but also helping the program as a whole. The coaches and schools that balance that are the ones that do a great job year in and year out, Frankton being one of them!

 

 

I for sure see your side as well, especially when a good kid from a small school dodges one of your horses to salvage their record or a potential seed.  Zero ethics from a coaching staff when that happens, again they are only hurting their kids.  I also agree with you not necessarily wanting to wrestle smaller schools, especially if they don't fill a full lineup, JV kids, etc.  It does your program and kids zero good.  

 

Wrestlers who have "over embellished records" & teams that do not wrestle the level of your competition, is frustrating!  A kid may come into the sectional with a better winning % record, and throw the entire bracket off putting the more elite kids on the same side.  This in turn carries into the regional etc.  I love how "coaches should have an open mind when separating the best wrestlers" is in the winter bulletin sectional seeding procedures, but rarely may get followed.  Our sectional is fortunate enough to have coaches that understand that statement.   

Edited February 8, 2023 by Coach Duncan

[Paycheck141]

3 hours ago, swain358 said:

Should be a requirement that each team in sectional wrestles each other in some type of dual format at some point in the season. Pretty simple but when it's brought up at seeding meetings, people think you are crazy or complaining. 

Should be the same with conferences as well 

[Nate Spangle]

2 hours ago, Jcjcjc said:

 

 

I used to think falling in track was a bad idea until I saw this race: 

 

 

 

 

"Sling shot engaged" 
-Ricky Bobby
Talladega Nights

[Clint Gard]

If "Record against common opponent" now means "Record against the field"...which I still argue is the dumbest thing I've heard, then there should be a requirement that a wrestler must have a specific number of matches against the field.  Similar to a wrestler required to have 10 matches to get seeded.  For example, If your sectional has 10 teams, then a wrestler should have 5+ matches vs the field, just take 1/2 of the number of teams.  If you have less than that, then you can't be seeded...Or some version of that.

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

55 minutes ago, Clint Gard said:

If "Record against common opponent" now means "Record against the field"...which I still argue is the dumbest thing I've heard, then there should be a requirement that a wrestler must have a specific number of matches against the field.  Similar to a wrestler required to have 10 matches to get seeded.  For example, If your sectional has 10 teams, then a wrestler should have 5+ matches vs the field, just take 1/2 of the number of teams.  If you have less than that, then you can't be seeded...Or some version of that.

 

 

So you schedule a super dual with 5 other sectional teams and a couple teams have 145lbers out due to injury/sickness/whatever. Now your kid is screwed because he showed up to wrestle, but no one else did.

 

Showing one case where this alternative seeding would be beneficial does not even remotely make it worthwhile. 

 

Forcing teams to wrestle every team in the sectional is not feasible and would hurt many non-conference events across the state. That sounds like a scheduling nightmare for AD's and coaches. 

 

Taking an extreme outlier and making it law is never a good idea.

[Clint Gard]

13 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So you schedule a super dual with 5 other sectional teams and a couple teams have 145lbers out due to injury/sickness/whatever. Now your kid is screwed because he showed up to wrestle, but no one else did.

 

Showing one case where this alternative seeding would be beneficial does not even remotely make it worthwhile. 

 

Forcing teams to wrestle every team in the sectional is not feasible and would hurt many non-conference events across the state. That sounds like a scheduling nightmare for AD's and coaches. 

 

Taking an extreme outlier and making it law is never a good idea.

We have the benefit that all but 2 of our conference teams are in our sectional so that helps us.  But we still found that when using record against the field that very few kids had more than 4 matches against the field even though many of us wrestled against each other.  Why? I don’t know but I have my thoughts on it.  
 

I never said to require everyone to wrestle each team in the sectional. I said make it 1/2.  Heck make it 3-4.  I don’t care but if record against the field is what we have to do now, then coaches need to make an effort to wrestle each other.  If they won’t, then something needs to be done.  
 

What’s your solution?

 

for the record, I still think record against the field is absolutely dumb for our sport.

[MattM]

42 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

So you schedule a super dual with 5 other sectional teams and a couple teams have 145lbers out due to injury/sickness/whatever. Now your kid is screwed because he showed up to wrestle, but no one else did.

 

 

Not to mention the amount of weight shifting that also goes on between that meet and sectionals.  The common conception is everyone shifts down, but sometimes they stay the same and sometimes another persons shift causes you to have to move up.  Either way your early season or even middle seasons events don’t give you the same opponents as the end of the season.  You can wrestle over half your sectional but still end up with few head to heads and only some common opponents due to that issue and the injury one Y2 mentioned.  Definitely not enough to make a vs. the field seeding situation really work.  I’m sure the IHSAA thinks all the wrestlers do or should face each other before sectionals, but just never took the time to consider the real situation of our season compared to their other sports. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by MattM

[Y2CJ41]

13 minutes ago, Clint Gard said:

We have the benefit that all but 2 of our conference teams are in our sectional so that helps us.  But we still found that when using record against the field that very few kids had more than 4 matches against the field even though many of us wrestled against each other.  Why? I don’t know but I have my thoughts on it.  
 

I never said to require everyone to wrestle each team in the sectional. I said make it 1/2.  Heck make it 3-4.  I don’t care but if record against the field is what we have to do now, then coaches need to make an effort to wrestle each other.  If they won’t, then something needs to be done.  
 

What’s your solution?

 

for the record, I still think record against the field is absolutely dumb for our sport.

Leave it how it is and quit complaining about stupid seeds. No matter what magical system you devise there will always be seeds that are not perfect and just need to be wrestled out. That's life and seeding is just for separation and separation only. Too many people are putting stock into seeds like you can't wrestle above your seed for some odd reason.

[MUSKEEWRESTLER]

This comes up every year, and every year I say that very few of the other IHSAA sports do any seeding at all.  Wrestle the guy in front of you.