grecoref Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 but what if red pins himself while trying to get the fall?.......never came out of the pinning combo but put himself on his back.......according to the case book page 90 it seems that would apply in this case....... Red CANNOT lose in any way shape or form unless it's Flagrant Misconduct once the nf points have been earned and that would included pinning himself. Troll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling4EVER Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Id hate to see this happen in the "to go" round and the ref gives the defensive guy the win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Id hate to see this happen in the "to go" round and the ref gives the defensive guy the win. If you are good enough to be worrying about tech falls in the "to go" rounds you better be good enough to stay off your back. Those are not playing around rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 You are correct....and that doesn't happen often. I will alert the media. Bshhhh...child please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling4EVER Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Lol I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted January 19, 2015 Author Share Posted January 19, 2015 so the end result seems to be (barring the tech situation) that if you end up on your back for a 2 count, regardless of how you got there, regardless of who is in control, regardless of rather you are scoring points at that time or not, you should be called pinned...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero123 Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I was thinking of a hypothetical situation. What would happen if a wrestler was ahead by 14 points, and he puts his opponent in a move like the spladle where is back could be exposed. He gets the five count and has the 3 near fall points accrued on the refs fingers. Then he leans back, and unwittingly pins himself for at least 2 seconds and the ref had the guts to call a defensive pin. Would they count this as a pin, since he already had the 15 points for the tech fall? Of course his coach would be really POd. But this could happen? Wouldnt it be the same situation as if he where to pin his opponent the fall would count as long as the match was still occurring. The kiid in self pin situation should still be called. Would make sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMILL Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 this thread has spun out of control !!! Have you guys not read and understood what the second greatest referee in IN has said (my wife still thinks JD is the best). He said the TF wins...........end of story !!! Next topic tskin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 this thread has spun out of control !!! Have you guys not read and understood what the second greatest referee in IN has said (my wife still thinks JD is the best). He said the TF wins...........end of story !!! Next topic What if they are both pinned at the same time. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 http://indianamat.com/index.php/topic/46799-defensive-pin/ This was also already a topic earlier this year. It's not that hard of a concept to figure out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Red CANNOT lose in any way shape or form unless it's Flagrant Misconduct once the nf points have been earned and that would included pinning himself. Grecofref, Ok, so more detail of the hypothetical situation. So say Red's team is down by five in a dual and this is the last match of the dual, and Red gets the spladle, almost has Green pinned, is up by 14 and has the nearfall points that are earned and not awarded. But Red defensively pins himself and ref recognizes it. Then the ref should stop the match, award the Red Team the tech fall and 5 points, resulting in a tie dual meet? Of course the dual would then by decided by critera. Also awkwardly, what would be the correct mechanics be. Would you just blow the whistle and explain to Red coach that you're wrestler just defensively pinned himself and match is over. Or would you call the pin, and then take it back and explain that tech fall criteria was met? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Grecofref, Ok, so more detail of the hypothetical situation. So say Red's team is down by five in a dual and this is the last match of the dual, and Red gets the spladle, almost has Green pinned, is up by 14 and has the nearfall points that are earned and not awarded. But Red defensively pins himself and ref recognizes it. Then the ref should stop the match award the Red Team the tech fall and 5 points, resulting in a tie dual meet? Of course the dual would then by decided by critera. Yep that's correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookies03 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Wasn't there a new rule or emphases on change in situations giving time to recover from situations. Something to the extent of giving the more aggressive wrestler the advantage. For example a defensive guy on bottom does a move that takes him to his back, the count doesn't start till the bottom guys secures him. Not sure if that is even correct, but thought it might have some ties to this subject. A few years ago we had a kid do a roll through cradle, which was like slow motion but never stopped and got called pinned. I would say the tech fall wins. In order for the guy spladle to be pinned there would be a change in position with would stop the match because of the tech fall. If the defensive wrestler initiates a move and puts himself in a precarious position the offensive wrestler must "control" him before a nearfall count can begin. I do not believe this to be a new rule but one most people don't seem to know about. Of course "control" is always up to the judgment of the official. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Grecoref, Ok so say red was up 13-0 and turned his man but only got a two count then green was able to secure the defensive pin? To bad he didn't get to the three count to earn the two point nearfall!! grecoref and TripleB 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 GrecoRef, I got this. Tskin we need more details. Was it a "short" 2 count or a "long" 2 count. If its a short 2 then near fall has not been secured. If its a long 2 then it can be rounded up, thus resulting in a nearfall and technical superiority being established. grecoref 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 TripleB, Not sure if you can establish it as either a long or short two. The hand movement use with the verbal count got somewhat extended but not fully locked out in the full whole # count. Thus in this determination a full count has not occurred. Rule 98 -1 nfc states when counting nearfall if their is any question to as the establishment of a full count the official in question shall reference back to the I did not establish the full count and then ask to phone a friend for confirmation. grecoref and rdrodd1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This TF issue cuts deep for me. It reflects one of the most outrageous wrestling situations I’ve ever witnessed. It occurred over twenty years ago and it still bothers me today. Imop, it just seems totally unfair that a wrestler can be on the mat and NOT have a chance to win; yet that is exactly what happens with the TF defensive pin rule. Sectional championship match around 1990. The Tech Fall had only been existence a few years. And not all the rules were flushed around the TF. My 145 lbs wrestlers is losing 15-1 and about to get Tech Falled by the opponent. The opponent leans back too far and pins himself while near fall is being counted. Official calls and defensive fall and my 145 lbs wrester wins, gets his hand raised and walks off the mat and signs the bout card. After the 152 match, the opponent’s coach complains to the official and states the 2 pt near fall was earned but not awarded, so really the match was 17-1 and his kid should have won. Both of coaches and the official talk throughout the 152 match about the situation. 152 match ends and they had out the awards to my 145 wrestler and the other place winners. Then the official in question goes out and officiates the 160 match. After the 160 match and another set of awards, the 171 lbs kids are on the mat about to start. The official then calls both us coaches on the mat and orders us to bring back both 145 wrestlers. My wrestler had already showered and was dressed in street clothes. Once both 145 kids are back on the mat in street clothes, the official raises the opponent’s hand and just says you lost to my wrestler. Then the official takes the first place ribbon and plaquer from my wrestler. Official goes over to the table and changes the bout card. Then the official changes the plaque with a marker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This TF issue cuts deep for me. It reflects one of the most outrageous wrestling situations I’ve ever witnessed. It occurred over twenty years ago and it still bothers me today. Imop, it just seems totally unfair that a wrestler can be on the mat and NOT have a chance to win; yet that is exactly what happens with the TF defensive pin rule. Sectional championship match around 1990. The Tech Fall had only been existence a few years. And not all the rules were flushed around the TF. My 145 lbs wrestlers is losing 15-1 and about to get Tech Falled by the opponent. The opponent leans back too far and pins himself while near fall is being counted. Official calls and defensive fall and my 145 lbs wrester wins, gets his hand raised and walks off the mat and signs the bout card. After the 152 match, the opponent’s coach complains to the official and states the 2 pt near fall was earned but not awarded, so really the match was 17-1 and his kid should have won. Both of coaches and the official talk throughout the 152 match about the situation. 152 match ends and they had out the awards to my 145 wrestler and the other place winners. Then the official in question goes out and officiates the 160 match. After the 160 match and another set of awards, the 171 lbs kids are on the mat about to start. The official then calls both us coaches on the mat and orders us to bring back both 145 wrestlers. My wrestler had already showered and was dressed in street clothes. Once both 145 kids are back on the mat in street clothes, the official raises the opponent’s hand and just says you lost to my wrestler. Then the official takes the first place ribbon and plaquer from my wrestler. Official goes over to the table and changes the bout card. Then the official changes the plaque with a marker. Thats too bad for your kid to go on that roller coaster ride. But I think its cool that we now have corroborating evidence that my obscure hypothetical situation actually happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 This TF issue cuts deep for me. It reflects one of the most outrageous wrestling situations I’ve ever witnessed. It occurred over twenty years ago and it still bothers me today. Imop, it just seems totally unfair that a wrestler can be on the mat and NOT have a chance to win; yet that is exactly what happens with the TF defensive pin rule. Sectional championship match around 1990. The Tech Fall had only been existence a few years. And not all the rules were flushed around the TF. My 145 lbs wrestlers is losing 15-1 and about to get Tech Falled by the opponent. The opponent leans back too far and pins himself while near fall is being counted. Official calls and defensive fall and my 145 lbs wrester wins, gets his hand raised and walks off the mat and signs the bout card. After the 152 match, the opponent’s coach complains to the official and states the 2 pt near fall was earned but not awarded, so really the match was 17-1 and his kid should have won. Both of coaches and the official talk throughout the 152 match about the situation. 152 match ends and they had out the awards to my 145 wrestler and the other place winners. Then the official in question goes out and officiates the 160 match. After the 160 match and another set of awards, the 171 lbs kids are on the mat about to start. The official then calls both us coaches on the mat and orders us to bring back both 145 wrestlers. My wrestler had already showered and was dressed in street clothes. Once both 145 kids are back on the mat in street clothes, the official raises the opponent’s hand and just says you lost to my wrestler. Then the official takes the first place ribbon and plaquer from my wrestler. Official goes over to the table and changes the bout card. Then the official changes the plaque with a marker. Sounds like the official did the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeastMode#31 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 ^ at the wrong time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Sounds like the official did the right thing. Well, that depends on one's perspective. I have not read the current casebook in years, but I have been told the casebook today states something along the lines that once the wrestlers leave the mat area, the decision is final. An official cannot go back three weight classes later and reverse a call. Imop, we would have chaos if that was the case. However, back in 1990, I can't recall any rule to prevent an official from changing a decision 20 minutes later, which is exactly what he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Well, that depends on one's perspective. I have not read the current casebook in years, but I have been told the casebook today states something along the lines that once the wrestlers leave the mat area, the decision is final. An official cannot go back three weight classes later and reverse a call. Imop, we would have chaos if that was the case. However, back in 1990, I can't recall any rule to prevent an official from changing a decision 20 minutes later, which is exactly what he did. Well back than the only cell phones were car phones. He probably paged someone on their beeper (kids this is little box the size of a pack of cards that would beep with a phone number to call back) and had to wait till they called back from a phone booth (the thing superman changes in). tskin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling4EVER Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Lol. And even if its a long two count some refs dont look at both wrestlers backs as they are counting lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD92 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 All you active wrestlers take note. If you are kicking the crap out of somebody, avoid moves that expose your own back and we won't have to worry about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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