Coach Wadkins Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 After seeing all of the discussion about wrestlebacks on here today, I called the IHSAA for a clarification. I've looked in both the Winter Bulletin & Tournament Handbook and found nothing that describes the changes being outlined by coaches on here. I just got off the phone with Mr. Faulkens, and he confirmed that there would be wrestlebacks at both levels this season. However, he just sent out an e-mail, to the several coaches serving on the committee to review the State Tournament Series. In that e-mail, he attached the brackets that will be used at both the Regional & Semistate Tournaments. We will have wrestlebacks at both the Regional & Semistate Tournaments this season...BUT...only to determine the 5th Place alternate to the next level. First round losers at Regional will wrestleback to 5th Place, but the Semifinal losers will still wrestle for 3rd Place and both advance to the Semistate. Semistate quarterfinal losers will wrestleback to 5th Place as well, but the four quarterfinal winners are still advancing to the State Finals. These wrestlebacks are being implemented primarily to assure us of sending along a competitive alternate to the next level of the State Tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Thanks coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RegionRoyalty Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Wow, what a complete waste of what could have been a good situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Sounds nice, but doesn't seem like wrestling to be an "alternate" (which isn't used much) would be much motivate for some when compared to having a chance to wrestle-back to an advancement spot. If they just wanted a more competitive alternative this could have been solved about as easy by choosing the person eliminated who placed the highest in the previous round (in case of a tie the person from the same location as winner, then the runner up). If your going to take a round up for wrestlebacks do it for a more productive reason than just an alternate. Really a no win situation for us since they will say "we gave you more wrestling and a better alternate, so why are you being ungrateful" if they hear complaint. And if we don't complain they will say "well we introduced wrestle backs and its done little for the tournaments progression so why did we listen to you guys talk us into it. In essence they found a way to affect things without actually having a meaningful affect on the event. I guess maybe its a small step forward and could at least be a springboard towards more extensive wrestlebacks later. Clearly someone in charge can eventually realize that actual wrestlebacks would still be best idea to help in determining a better team score and correct advancements with less luck of the draw involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 This is a setup by the IHSAA to show that the coaches will make a mockery of the state tournament again when kid forfeit or just flat out don't wrestle these matches. Alternates are used less than 1% of the time throughout the state series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 This is a setup by the IHSAA to show that the coaches will make a mockery of the state tournament again when kid forfeit or just flat out don't wrestle these matches. Alternates are used less than 1% of the time throughout the state series. Agreed. They have to know this will make us upset. Seriously they would rather stick it to us than do what is best for the kids. What a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I think the group that can make the loudest noise about this is the refs. The IHSAA is not going to pay them any more and they will have to ref meaningless matches on top of a long day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samaj Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 hahahahaha...your kidding right??? this is typical of the IHSAA. what a joke. ok so they are gonna wrestle 3 additional matches per weight at each level to find out the alternate instead of wrestling 4 additional matches per weight at each level and send the true top four? WOW. I am not blaming them because I know how the IHSAA works but can we hear from somebody on the this coaches panel who reviewed the state tournament series who can explain how this went down?? Sounds like somebody swung and missed. Can we go back and explain that while we are very appreciative for the gesture...can we do this instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 There going to spend the time to wrestle back for the alternate. But they can't wrestleback for a true 3rd & 4th. Whats more important? Why does Indiana not have wrestle backs at regional, semi-state or State? I have never heard anybody answer that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 There going to spend the time to wrestle back for the alternate. But they can't wrestleback for a true 3rd & 4th. Whats more important? Why does Indiana not have wrestle backs at regional, semi-state or State? I have never heard anybody answer that question. IMO one of the greatest things about wrestling is also playing against us in this situation. The bottom line is you will never truly understand wrestling unless you are a wrestler. We don't have any wrestlers on the IHSAA. Until that changes we are stuck with what we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 IMO one of the greatest things about wrestling is also playing against us in this situation. The bottom line is you will never truly understand wrestling unless you are a wrestler. We don't have any wrestlers on the IHSAA. Until that changes we are stuck with what we have. None of the other individual sports have the direct person vs. person aspect along with team add-on aside from Tennis. Without someone from one of those two sports in a vocal position it will be hard for the decision makers to have a clear view of how these dynamics of these sports are difference than the other individual timed, judged or scored course event. If not a wrestlers in the position at least with a tennis person we could at least share similar logic that they could make sense of when it comes to these issue at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 None of the other individual sports have the direct person vs. person aspect along with team add-on aside from Tennis. Without someone from one of those two sports in a vocal position it will be hard for the decision makers to have a clear view of how these dynamics of these sports are difference than the other individual timed, judged or scored course event. If not a wrestlers in the position at least with a tennis person we could at least share similar logic that they could make sense of when it comes to these issue at least. The tennis state format is even more messed up than wrestling and is very complicated. If the #1 and #2 players in the state are in the same sectional, only one advances out of the sectional. ISHAA would be smart to have competition committees made up of coaches from their respective sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azcoach Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 WTF! After explaining to Adams County and beyond the changes made by the IHSAA in regards to wrestle backs during the Bellmont and Adams Central match, it turns out I did not have a clue. Duped again by the powers that be. Shame on me for misrepresenting their misrepresentation. What a bunch of charlatans. AJ Kalver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 WTF! After explaining to Adams County and beyond the changes made by the IHSAA in regards to wrestle backs during the Bellmont and Adams Central match, it turns out I did not have a clue. Duped again by the powers that be. Shame on me for misrepresenting their misrepresentation. What a bunch of charlatans. AJ Kalver Guys...there is one reason and one reason ONLY for this decision: cash money. 56 more kids' families stick around longer and pay for finals tickets, concessions etc. It's absolutely the reason for the sudden change to 4 advancing from regional to semi-state a few years ago: 56 more people to pay money and bring in cash. And now this. What an absolute joke. What an absolute insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 The tennis state format is even more messed up than wrestling and is very complicated. If the #1 and #2 players in the state are in the same sectional, only one advances out of the sectional. ISHAA would be smart to have competition committees made up of coaches from their respective sports. If the #1 and #2 basketball teams are in the same sectional, only one moves on....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penn04 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Why does Indiana not have wrestle backs at regional, semi-state or State? I have never heard anybody answer that question. They've actually explained it many times and made their intentions clear via their actions many times. The goal of the individual wrestling tournament is to crown a champion. Wrestlebacks don't matter because in the long run, they don't matter in the crowning of a champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 ok I did not think long about this so I could be off. Someone help me here, but this could really screw up team scores. So the fifth place kid(alt) could score more than the kid advancing to the semi state. So a team with 10 fifth place kids could win the tournament over a team filled with higher place winners possibly. You get an advantage for wrestling for fifth place over that of a better kid who is in the top four. Am I wrong? Let me know. Just a quick thought!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 And as several others can do, I can show you the email with Mr. Faulkens telling me we are wrestling back to third!! Probably before he met with the power above!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Very good point Tonte At regional the 4th placer will earn between 9-11 points depending upon bonus points The 5th place finisher can earn between 6-10 points depending upon bonus points At semi-state the numbers would be 4th place 11-15 points 5th place 8-14 points At the semi-state level a 5th placer that gets three pins would score 14 points, while a 3rd placer with all decisions would receive 13 points. It would not surprise me if there are a good number of 5th placers that get bonus points in their matches and equal the 4th place finishers who do NOT advance to the next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 They've actually explained it many times and made their intentions clear via their actions many times. The goal of the individual wrestling tournament is to crown a champion. Wrestlebacks don't matter because in the long run, they don't matter in the crowning of a champion. Why do they wrestle off for 3rd through 8th place, if those don't matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 If the #1 and #2 basketball teams are in the same sectional, only one moves on....... With team sports, you don't have the time and resources to place accurately at a state level. I'll explain the difference between individual vs team. Use your example of #1 vs #2 face each other in the sectional for basketball, football, baseball or any other sport. One team loses and chalks it up as a bad draw. Say on the losing the team, you have the best player in the state. He doesn't make it to regional, semi-state or state, but he still gets voted all state and gets recognized for his effort with postseason awards. Use the example of the #1 and #2 tennis player. One of these guys loses, and his season is done. Another guy from an easier region, who can't come close to beating the #2 player makes it to state and gets classified as all state as a result. The point is in wrestling and tennis, we have the tournament and play it out to decide who is all-state. The system is setup to decide who the best competitior but it fails in deciding who the top competitors are. What if they made a rule in basketball or football to decide who is all state, you can only vote on players from teams that made the state finals. I don't think the "Executive Committe" would go for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 And as several others can do, I can show you the email with Mr. Faulkens telling me we are wrestling back to third!! Probably before he met with the power above!! We have had a few occasions over the last year or two where he's said one thing (that usually makes sense to the wrestling community) and then after talking it through with "the commish" has changed the decision to something else (that usually doesn't). Seems like Mr. Cox still has his hand firmly in control of all decisions that come down the pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 ok I did not think long about this so I could be off. Someone help me here, but this could really screw up team scores. So the fifth place kid(alt) could score more than the kid advancing to the semi state. So a team with 10 fifth place kids could win the tournament over a team filled with higher place winners possibly. You get an advantage for wrestling for fifth place over that of a better kid who is in the top four. Am I wrong? Let me know. Just a quick thought!! You mean they actually didn't evaluate how this would affect team scores, but then use that as some of the reasoning for it. If that doesn't clearly show their lack of understanding or concern for how this was decided I'm not sure what does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penn04 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Why do they wrestle off for 3rd through 8th place, if those don't matter? Based on their reasoning, that is a phenomenal question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penn04 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Very good point Tonte At regional the 4th placer will earn between 9-11 points depending upon bonus points The 5th place finisher can earn between 6-10 points depending upon bonus points At semi-state the numbers would be 4th place 11-15 points 5th place 8-14 points At the semi-state level a 5th placer that gets three pins would score 14 points, while a 3rd placer with all decisions would receive 13 points. It would not surprise me if there are a good number of 5th placers that get bonus points in their matches and equal the 4th place finishers who do NOT advance to the next week. Which alllllll benefits bigger, deeper teams! (Like Penn) :) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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