The JV Problem

[MattM]

Until more teams can field close to a full JV team it would be nice if each region of the state had at least on large JV events throughout the states most weekends to get the wrestlers more matches.  I believe one of the purposes of having a Varsity 2 team is to ensure hard working wrestlers don't get discouraged by their lack of mat time.  Though in some cases schools don't have the staff (and/or athletic department finances) to send wrestlers two different places most of the season.

[Rookies03]

Several baseball programs have either gone away from Var, JV, Freshman and have A, B, C teams.  This allows more flexibility of having different grade levels on each team.  This usually happens when there are smaller numbers at the 9th grade class and it allows sophomores to play on the C team.  Other programs have gone to 4 teams because of the number of kids in the program. 

 

This obviously doesnt affect seeding in a tournament but its not just happening in Wrestling.

 

Shouldnt our focus be on more kids participating vs how a coach might manipulate a seeding meeting?

[Fabio Jr.]

It will cause some seeding issues, but like i said earlier that comes back to an ethical issue. A coach should be honest at a seeding meeting and say hey my kid isnt that good he is a back up etc. will all coaches follow this logic. No. But its not because some more kids are getting more mat time. Again it comes down to whats better for the sport. More kids wrestling is good period. There can be ways to improve this system to make it a better but to say its "HURTING" wrestling is just not true.

[Jimtown 138]

I am not connected with any team losing to a "JV" team.  I am just a huge fan of the sport that has been involved in many levels.  Take a program that cannot field two teams or an athletic program that won't send a second varsity team out to a tourney, where does that leave them?  A team may have three kids in similar weight classes that are all competitive, but are unable to field or fund an alternative.  Also, if you don't think it will cause seeding issues, you probably have never sat in on a seeding meeting for the Al Smith Classic.  From what I hear, Clay had an issue where they did not wrestle Penn "JV" at a tournament.  I do believe that the coach had the best interest of his team in mind.  I believe this trend, if it continues will hurt "JV" programs and thus the sport in the majority of schools that cannot or won't be allowed to create the extra team.

 

Using the Al Smith Classic for this issue isn't a good example. There's only a few schools in Indiana fielding multi-varsity teams. The coaches at the Al Smith seeding meeting are going to know who is who and how good they are. All you have to do is a little research on this site...

 

I would say if Clay avoided wrestling Penn's second team at a varsity tournament and either give up opportunities to wrestle or worse forfeits, that's their problem. These guys on Penn's second team are good, just not good enough to be on their "varsity".

[MattM]

Several baseball programs have either gone away from Var, JV, Freshman and have A, B, C teams.  This allows more flexibility of having different grade levels on each team.  This usually happens when there are smaller numbers at the 9th grade class and it allows sophomores to play on the C team.  Other programs have gone to 4 teams because of the number of kids in the program.  

 

This obviously doesnt affect seeding in a tournament but its not just happening in Wrestling.

 

Shouldnt our focus be on more kids participating vs how a coach might manipulate a seeding meeting?

 

I'm not sure how their A, B, C teams work into the issue completely but I do know baseball was directed a few years ago by the IHSAA to stop their practice of over booking games on their schedule.  This was due to the schools then canceling or sending a different team than what the opponent expected so that the first teams true varsity doesn't end up with to many games before sectional.  

 

Again I think this issue is one we can deal with in house through the coaches association and then talking to the talk to the IHSAA about how we will go forward.   Maybe this is yet another situation where others states already do it with wrestling or other sports and by finding out how they handle thing it would help how we organize things too.  I'd hate for issues to linger on and then due to complaints about different issues the IHSAA decides to step in and tells us what is best for the sport.  I believe we have had that issue enough times already.

[kevinl]

doesnt hurt em

Fabio,

While I do not personally have a problem with the practice, it CAN hurt another team.

 

For example say a team has 2 or 3 good wrestlers but a weak supporting team.  In that scenario, they are not likely to draw a school's A-team in a tournament.

 

It is better for the A-team, but it does hurt the 2 or 3 quality kids on the team that could have hung with the A-team wrestlers.

 

We had that happen and one of our better wrestlers missed an opportunity to wrestle a quality match.  Instead of a POTENTIAL match between two State ranked wrestlers (not saying they would have actually seen each other) ours bumped up a weight to get a quick pin against a JV kid.

 

I have no beef with the school, I wish we were in a position to do the same.  But our team's better wrestlers did miss out on some quality mat time and that will hurt him in the future, especially if that continues to become prevalent.  Hard for a small school with an incomplete roster to get invited to these better tournaments in the first place but when they do get into one with a better team only to face a JV wrestler it does hurt that team, but not the sport.

 

Again (for the reading impaired) I have no beef with a school creating an A and a B team and sending the B team to a weaker tournament.  But Fabio is not correct in saying that it does not hurt the schools who get the B-team.  It can.

 

It is a trade off.  We had kids that had some success against the JV kids but (to be totally honest) those matches were not going to get them ready for Sectionals, while the 2 or 3 may have had matches that would have helped them get ready for SS or even State competition.  They are the ones that get hurt by a 2 team system.

 

And yes we are trying to get stronger so we can be invited to the better tournaments.  Until then we will do our best to get those quality kids the best matches and hope that we do not face too many B (jv) teams.

[Fabio Jr.]

Thats all you can do is get better to get the better teams to want to wrestle you. When we did this at Mishawaka we made it clear it was not our varsity team. I dunno how other teams handle it so i cannot speak for them.  The problem with what you have stated is that the team sent a second team. Did they imply it would be thier varsity or did you know that it was going to be a B team.

[kevinl]

Thats all you can do is get better to get the better teams to want to wrestle you. When we did this at Mishawaka we made it clear it was not our varsity team. I dunno how other teams handle it so i cannot speak for them.  The problem with what you have stated is that the team sent a second team. Did they imply it would be thier varsity or did you know that it was going to be a B team.

I don't know and I really do not have a problem with it either way, as I stated.

 

It was definitely a better thing for their A-team as the level of competition at this tournament was definitely lacking from an over all team aspect.  And I am sure their A-team kids saw a better over all competition, but your comment was that it would not hurt the other team and my only point was that in isolated cases certain kids were hurt, but you cannot fault a coach for putting THEIR kids experience ahead of the experience of the competition (just like having a kid bump to avoid giving your better kid a match.  You understand but just go DANG, I wish that had not happened.)

 

We get the matches we can and hope to bring the rest of the team along in practice so we can at least get some decent practice time as well.  Every one of those big matches helps so it stinks to miss one.  But we keep plugging at least knowing that in some schools the sport is thriving.

[Fabio Jr.]

If we are goning to get that specific then the teams are hurt because they wont have the depth that other team has...or they are hurt when they have to go through a tougher semistate. If a team makes it clear they are not sending their true varsity team then it is on the hosting team to either accept that or not let them in the tournement.

 

If said team gave impression that their true varsity was going then yes that hurt ther team who was preparing for a tough match. I give you that. But if it is explcitly known that a team is sending their 2nd Varsity there is no harm done.

[1oldwrestler]

It will cause some seeding issues, but like i said earlier that comes back to an ethical issue. A coach should be honest at a seeding meeting and say hey my kid isnt that good he is a back up etc.

 

This might be the funniest thing I have read on this website in a long time.

[Coach McCormick]

In following up with thecomets post regarding the actual IHSAA by-law addressing competition levels, I discussed this issue face to face with Commissioner Faulkens last spring.  He said to me, "actually, a school could send two varsity football teams out on the same night.  Varsity football team "A" could be playing at home and they could send a Varsity "b" away to another school for an away game.  Coaches/schools typically don't do this in football due to numbers of players, coaching responsibilities and traditional habits.  It just says that a school can only enter one team into the post season tournament."

From a rules perspective, the IHSAA seems to be concerned about two things (one wrestling related and one not).

1. From a wrestling stand point, they want to make sure individual wrestlers stay under their 18 competition points.  Mr. Faulkens (the IHSAA) did not seem to have a problem at all with the "2 varsity squad" situation as long as each wrestler stays under their points.

 

2.  Where they are having problems is with "over booking" of varsity competitions resulting in cancellations in other sports.  An example would be baseball which occurs in the spring during bad weather.  Coaches would over book their schedules knowing that a few games would get cancelled due to inclement weather.  Then all of a sudden, the perfect spring occurs with no weather cancellations.  School "A" would have to contact School "B" at the last second and cancel, because they were going to be over their allotted number of competition points.  School "B" had senior night planned that night, and now everything is a shambles and parents from school "B" are calling the IHSAA complaining about school "A"'s scheduling policies.

[kevinl]

If we are goning to get that specific then the teams are hurt because they wont have the depth that other team has...or they are hurt when they have to go through a tougher semistate. If a team makes it clear they are not sending their true varsity team then it is on the hosting team to either accept that or not let them in the tournement.

 

If said team gave impression that their true varsity was going then yes that hurt ther team who was preparing for a tough match. I give you that. But if it is explcitly known that a team is sending their 2nd Varsity there is no harm done.

Again I have no problem with it, you seem to be reacting as if I do.  

 

How is that "that specific"?  You said it does not hurt the other teams and I believe that is incorrect and gave an example, nothing more.

 

Does the hosting school tell all the schools that will be there that this is the case?  

 

I don't think they do whether the school tells them or not.  And even if they do, is it known enough in advance that another tournament can be found and scheduled?  I do not think so.  It is not like the ISWA where you just decide to head west on the high way out of town instead of north that weekend.

 

Actually in this case the school did not tell the hosting school until too late to find a school that would send it's A team (likely its only team) and definitely too late for the other schools to find somewhere else to go.  

 

Oh and BTW the team only brought enough wrestlers to fill 8 spots at that.

 

It is possible that some of the better teams that were there will now begin to look for another tournament for that weekend, so the hosting school gets hurt even more.

 

The depth of a team is not something another team can affect.  Sending their better wrestlers to another tournament is.  There is no correlation there at all.

 

When you try to get into a tournament to face better schools and they send their B-team it DOES affect the schools that will be there, but it does make for a stronger team and as I have said multiple times, I am OK with that.

 

I just disagree with your comment that it does not hurt the other teams in the tournament.  It does and I gave you "specific" examples of how it does.

 

But again I applaud a school for having the ability to do this.  I wish we had the same issues to discuss.

 

[Fabio Jr.]

Im rebutting my claim I never said u didn't think it was fine and i even agreed and said if a team said they would bring a VARSITY  line up and switch it at the last second that that does hurt those teams...when we would set up our schedule for our JV we would make it clear that we were not sending our varsity. There fore its not a big shock and those teams know that going in, they know its a second team. In that case its fine and the teams know what they are getting in too.

 

If you are saying we are sending a varisty line up and send 8 JV guys that's hurting teams, and that team shouldn't be invited to the tournament in the future.

 

 

[kevinl]

Im rebutting my claim I never said u didn't think it was fine and i even agreed and said if a team said they would bring a VARSITY  line up and switch it at the last second that that does hurt those teams...when we would set up our schedule for our JV we would make it clear that we were not sending our varsity. There fore its not a big shock and those teams know that going in, they know its a second team. In that case its fine and the teams know what they are getting in too.

 

If you are saying we are sending a varisty line up and send 8 JV guys that's hurting teams, and that team shouldn't be invited to the tournament in the future.

 

 

Coach I did not say you were sending your A team, B team, or your managers to wrestle.  I have no idea how you handle it and I could care less.  Nothing I said was personal to you, unless you are the coach of the team I mentioned.

 

The post is about  "The JV Problem" caused by schools, any schools, that are sending their JV kids to a Varsity tournament.

 

You said it does not hurt "them."  I am left to assume that meant sending JV to a varsity tournament since that is what this thread is all about and you did not bother to quote something specific. That is what I replied to (easy enough to tell because I quoted you in the original post.)  If you meant something more specific then perhaps quoting the comment to which you are referring would be proper etiquette.

 

I have pointed out that sending a JV team can hurt others at the tournament, but I am OK with that for the schools sake.  They are never required to put forth their best wrestlers whether they are there or not.  I am not understanding why you seem to be closed to the possibility that other schools might be hurt by it.  It is not your job to make sure they are prepared for sectionals, it is their coach's.

 

I'm sorry you do not feel that this is true, others missing out on better wrestling because a team did not send their best.  Obviously others do but I will stand with you in your decision to do what is best for YOUR team.

 

If you are bringing a team that is just as good as your varsity (or close to it,) you are bringing a full team, you are informing the host school far enough in advance that they can replace you if they do not want your JV team there, AND informing all the participating schools far enough in advance that they can find another tournament if THEY do not want to wrestle your JV then you are doing all you can and I applaud you for it.  If you are not doing ALL the above then I can see how other teams would be put off by your decision, but it is still your decision to make, not theirs.

 

Unlike others I have no beefs with the practice (nor do I have a beef with coaches that forfeit to a better wrestler or bump a kid to avoid them either, they are doing what they think is best for their team) but to state that no one is hurt by your choice is just not really looking at all the facts.

[Fabio Jr.]

From everything I have been told and understand the only way to actually send a team other than you're varsity to a varsity tournament is to have it be explicitly told to all parties involved at the tournament other wise its a breach of the contract and coaching ethics. Which is where we are disagreeing. If anything other than that is happening it is against what I have been told specifically from the IHSAA. What to do about that I do not know and I guess we just have to settle on our differing veiwpoints.

[kevinl]

From everything I have been told and understand the only way to actually send a team other than you're varsity to a varsity tournament is to have it be explicitly told to all parties involved at the tournament other wise its a breach of the contract and coaching ethics. Which is where we are disagreeing. If anything other than that is happening it is against what I have been told specifically from the IHSAA. What to do about that I do not know and I guess we just have to settle on our differing veiwpoints.

That is great if that is supposed to be done that way. It has never been about following any IHSAA rules or regulations.  I have been around long enough to know that you are most likely following them to a "T".

 

But it is really irrelevant to the fact that I stated that the other teams may be hurt in certain circumstances and I stand by that just as I stand by the fact that I agree that it is up to you to decide what to do with your team.  But I would not be surprised if other teams are put off by the decision. 

 

Your comment was that a school's (as a head coach choosing to split the team or t send JV kids to a tournament) decision does not hurt the other teams and that is not a correct statement whether you follow every rule or not.

 

It can and does affect other teams and that is a fact.  They may chose to ask you to not return or other teams may decide to find another tournament which also hurts the host school. 

[panther83]

Good lord!

If all this is somehow in reference to the Penn JV at the Merrillville Tournament.

I believe SB Clay coach Hartman was quoted on this site as saying that the Host (Merrillville) and his Clay team

new Penn was sending a JV Squad Months before the actual tournament.  So I don't believe this was any surprise to anyone

[kevinl]

Good lord!

If all this is somehow in reference to the Penn JV at the Merrillville Tournament.

I believe SB Clay coach Hartman was quoted on this site as saying that the Host (Merrillville) and his Clay team

new Penn was sending a JV Squad Months before the actual tournament.  So I don't believe this was any surprise to anyone

My responses had nothing to do with Fabio or his team and it appeared that he wanted to make in about that.  If you read my comments I went out of my way to point out that it was not directed to Fabio or any team only that hitting JV wrestlers, whether as a B-team or just in the varsity lineup does affect others.  Aorry if that bothers you.

 

My only point was that it does hurt other teams when they expect a teams best and schedule accordingly but end up facing a JV team.  I also said it was his choice and I have no problem with it, but others could be put off by it.

 

We got a teams B-team this year.  I have no idea if they were JV or not.  We did not get the match ups that we expected at that tournament as a result.  This did hurt those wrestlers but that is not the the concern of the opposing coach.

 

It hurt the wrestlers just as surely as giving a wrestler a forfeit or bumping a kid to avoid a good match.  All of which any coach would have to consider if it was in the best interest of his team.

 

[chambers]

My responses had nothing to do with Fabio or his team and it appeared that he wanted to make in about that.  If you read my comments I went out of my way to point out that it was not directed to Fabio or any team only that hitting JV wrestlers, whether as a B-team or just in the varsity lineup does affect others.  Aorry if that bothers you.

 

My only point was that it does hurt other teams when they expect a teams best and schedule accordingly but end up facing a JV team.  I also said it was his choice and I have no problem with it, but others could be put off by it.

 

We got a teams B-team this year.  I have no idea if they were JV or not.  We did not get the match ups that we expected at that tournament as a result.  This did hurt those wrestlers but that is not the the concern of the opposing coach.

 

It hurt the wrestlers just as surely as giving a wrestler a forfeit or bumping a kid to avoid a good match.  All of which any coach would have to consider if it was in the best interest of his team.

 

 

Did your teams coach know that it was going to be a JV or B team? Did it come down to there being one less team at the tournament which would have resulted in your team getting a bye one round or a JV or B team wrestling?

[NIaGrad]

I fail to grasp how wrestling a quality JV opponent somehow damages a wrestler or his future seeding unless he loses to them.  If they lose them them, it was probably a good thing they didn't wrestle the varsity wrestler.  I can only speak for the Penn program but on our schedule that is circulated at the start of the season it clearly states which tournaments will be JV for us and which will be Varsity.  I would assume that if it is available to the general public that anyone concerned enough to complain could find out if they are interested.  An attempt has been made to send the varsity to the better touneys and the JV to the less competitive ones.  This can not always be predicted and I'm sure mismatches exist but our JV has not been the worst team at any competition I am aware of.  My personal opinion is that if a JV team is wrestling against varsity competition, the results should be counted as a varsity match, for both wrestlers.  If a team produces a team that is not competitive, they will not be invited back.  I think this is all the supervision that is necessary.  I commend Coach Harper in his attempt at getting the involvement of his whole team and I can see why other teams may be jealous.  This is not the same as causing harm.

 

 

[Zen_Wrestler]

I think the discussion is great.  I just don't care for the idea of having two varsity teams.  I certainly see it as an advantage for a team that can and is allowed to do such a thing.  I don't fault them for doing it, but I believe it going to cause damage down the road if more teams start doing this. This practice is great to give you kids not in the true varsity lineup get varsity experience, however they are not the best on their team.  I wasn't aware that other sports are doing this and perhaps I am being short sighted.  I can just see five or ten years down the road schools like Penn, Carmel, Ben Davis, etc fielding two, three, four teams and sending them across the state.  Then it is not a far fetched idea to have many tournaments move to an open format where a single school takes several places.  I don't believe it is a great environments for other teams to grow their programs and thus the sport.

[charger.dad]

In following up with thecomets post regarding the actual IHSAA by-law addressing competition levels, I discussed this issue face to face with Commissioner Faulkens last spring.  He said to me, "actually, a school could send two varsity football teams out on the same night.  Varsity football team "A" could be playing at home and they could send a Varsity "b" away to another school for an away game.  Coaches/schools typically don't do this in football due to numbers of players, coaching responsibilities and traditional habits.  It just says that a school can only enter one team into the post season tournament."

From a rules perspective, the IHSAA seems to be concerned about two things (one wrestling related and one not).

1. From a wrestling stand point, they want to make sure individual wrestlers stay under their 18 competition points.  Mr. Faulkens (the IHSAA) did not seem to have a problem at all with the "2 varsity squad" situation as long as each wrestler stays under their points.

 

2.  Where they are having problems is with "over booking" of varsity competitions resulting in cancellations in other sports.  An example would be baseball which occurs in the spring during bad weather.  Coaches would over book their schedules knowing that a few games would get cancelled due to inclement weather.  Then all of a sudden, the perfect spring occurs with no weather cancellations.  School "A" would have to contact School "B" at the last second and cancel, because they were going to be over their allotted number of competition points.  School "B" had senior night planned that night, and now everything is a shambles and parents from school "B" are calling the IHSAA complaining about school "A"'s scheduling policies.

 

man if the penn football coach see this, they're gonna be sending out two teams on friday nights now......lol.....

 

[T-Rex DoubleLeg]

I say 1 team only. No extra JV teams

[Hide N Seek]

I say 1 team only. No extra JV teams

 

I highly agree, very touchy subject though.

[ccbig]

I think terminology is the only real problem here. What some would call a JV team is much better described as a Varsity B team.

 

If a given team's Varsity B squad not only can hang with other schools Varsity teams and in fact have won several Varsity tournaments I think it is obvious the Varsity B team is deserving to compete with other Varsity teams and any individual wrestler wins/losses should be treated as Varsity wins/losses.

 

I know for certain at least one of Penn's current Varsity B team members was state ranked for several weeks. I believe others have been as well in the past few years. That should give an idea of the strength of several these school's Varsity B squads. Many of these Varsity B team wrestlers would otherwise be a starter for many of the teams in the state.

 

It would be nice to see coaches talking about how to increase the number or wrestlers who can compete and how to grow a wrestling program instead of how to limit competition between skilled wrestlers.