Zen_Wrestler Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Maybe this has been discussed already and I am late to the game but I need to toss in my thoughts. The recent trend of sending "JV" teams to compete in varsity sports is not good for the sport in Indiana. My first question is how the world schools have enough weigh-ins to pull this off without going over the limit? If a team sends two teams to two varsity events that count as two weigh-ins how is their schedule structured to absorb 4 weigh-ins on one weekend? Then do it again in a few short weeks? What is the impact on seeding of sectionals, conference, and tournaments? How is the IHSAA viewing this trend? Why is wrestling allowed to do this? Are other sports to follow? I believe this is a case of wrestling being its own worst enemy again... team state is another example. I do think it is important for getting quality matches for elite program's reserve team, but there has to be a better way. Maybe this has been happening for some time and allowed to go unchecked the major programs are going to have two to three teams competing every weekend and I can't see how that helps the OVERALL sport. Perhaps we can move more to have a few open style tournaments instead. Ideas, comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 A lot of this years discussion about the "Varsity 2" issue was covered here. http://indianamat.com/messageboard/index.php/topic,23904.msg160373.html#msg160373 It has been coming up the last few years due to a few teams having the ability to have a second team. If done right I feel it will help Indiana by giving JV kids more experience and helping more want to stay out for the sport rather than get few matches a year. However, there is some potential for problems I believe the wrestling community needs to address and take care of in house (as I mention in my post about it) so that the IHSAA doesn't get involved and possibly end the practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpt189 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 as far as I am to understand, you can have as many weigh ins as you want. And since the team is split, that counts as a weigh in for the individuals, not the team. over the last 3 years I have sent my JV kids to participate in varsity tourneys while my varsity goes to other tourneys. One big reason is that there arent very many JV tourneys held in our area and our varsity participates in several "varsity only" tourneys during the season where they dont wrestle JV matches. Ive have always asked the coaches and AD's of the varsity tourneys I've sent my JV to if they have an issue with it not being our true varsity.....and their response always seems to be that it doesnt matter to them, they just want to see the kids get matches. I dont send my JV team to big "Super Dual" matches or to tourneys with state ranked teams. The 3 varsity tourneys i am sending them to this year are more lower level tourneys, where the varsity teams don't typically field all 14 weights. I do my best to get them competition, but do not try to kill them. Does this hurt wrestling in Indiana? I can't see how doing the best for your team, getting them guranteed matches as opposed to hoping other teams have JV kids can hurt the sport. And what is better for these top tier teams backups (Penn, Perry, Yorktown)- going to a JV tourney and blow every team out by 60+ or have 3/4 of your team win an individual tourney, or is it better to have them compete in other tourneys and hang with varsity teams. Sure, varsity teams may not like getting beat by other schools' JV, but if you dont like that....work harder, get better, and dont lose to those teams. I know for a fact there are JV teams in this state that would beat my varsity team, and I'm ok with that. Over the previous 2 seasons my JV beat a few varsity teams from other schools, and I dont think those teams felt we were ruining wrestling. One last thing I see here is that even though it isnt a gurantee, but almost every team in the state that participates in football, basketball, baseball, etc can field a full varsity and junior varsity teams. That is why they have seperate games. Every tourney we've participated in this year has had at least one team forfeit more than one weight class. In fact, 3 of our tourneys have had every team participating forfeit at least one weight class. These teams that have 50, 60, 70+ kids need to get their kids matches somehow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecomets Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 IHSAA by laws 9-6 Member Schools Limited to One Tournament Series Team; Member schools may maintain any number of teams in the same sport, but only one team may represent a school in an IHSAA tournament series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Maybe this has been discussed already and I am late to the game but I need to toss in my thoughts. The recent trend of sending "JV" teams to compete in varsity sports is not good for the sport in Indiana. My first question is how the world schools have enough weigh-ins to pull this off without going over the limit? If a team sends two teams to two varsity events that count as two weigh-ins how is their schedule structured to absorb 4 weigh-ins on one weekend? Then do it again in a few short weeks? What is the impact on seeding of sectionals, conference, and tournaments? How is the IHSAA viewing this trend? Why is wrestling allowed to do this? Are other sports to follow? I believe this is a case of wrestling being its own worst enemy again... team state is another example. I do think it is important for getting quality matches for elite program's reserve team, but there has to be a better way. Maybe this has been happening for some time and allowed to go unchecked the major programs are going to have two to three teams competing every weekend and I can't see how that helps the OVERALL sport. Perhaps we can move more to have a few open style tournaments instead. Ideas, comments? You never once mentioned how its "bad for the sport" you siad more kids are competeing which to me is going to help the sport. It seems according to the bylaws its perfectly legal. So whats the beef? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricEye Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Anything that gets more kids onto a mat and into a wrestling room is nothing short of wonderful for the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 It could be bad for the sport in how the results/records could possibly be used to manipulate situations like tournament seedings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I dont follow BBB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the funk Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Definitely do not see a problem with seeking out quality competition. If a jv team has been blowing through their respective competition and is able to go to a varsity dual, that will benefit the wrestlers. These wrestlers are often good enough to be varsity on most teams but cannot crack the lineup (as is the case with many elite-level programs). They will be varsity in the future and they need as much varsity experience as possible to get them ready for when they do make the line up. Sounds like someone's team got beat by a jv team and is complaining. ;D ;D ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 let's say varsity wrestler is hurt and jv guy is intserted into conference America's tournament. His record is 11-0 w/ 6 forfeits and 5 wins w/ the V2 squad against a relatively weak schedule. No head to heads, no returning conference champ.... He's now the one seed, and the rest of the guys get bumped down. Placements are affected, team points are affected and the outcome of the tournament could hinge on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I dont follow BBB. If I may speak for 3B's....Let's take a couple of kids from Penn for example, Tommy Varner and Joey Stasiak both wrestled with Penn's JV team at the Westview Invite while their varsity was hosting their 10 team super dual. Do those wins as part of Penn's JV team count on their varsity record if they happen to be entered into the post season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 As I mentioned in the other thread Until more Indiana wrestling programs grows large enough to sustain full JV squad for meets, the formation of a "varsity 2" team is the best way to get kids experiance and keep them from leaving te program due to lack of mat time. Now if these matches should be counted as JV, disclosure of what team will be at the even to all teams well ahead of time, and/or Varsity for the two teams involved and if coaches are end up using the teams as a way to shuffle kids around to pad individual wins or avoid studs could become the real issue that may end up causing controversy. Some of these issues could probably be discussed and handled in house with the IHSWCA and the discussed with the IHSAA, so nothing all of a sudden springs up. If V2 is something that is worth keeping then any coaches who have these teams need to make sure they are careful not to cause unneeded controversy which would possibly cause the IHSAA to eventually end this practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Thats such a niche case I dont think it is THAT relevent. and at that point you wrestle the tournment. the better wrestlers will place and the better team more often then not will stilll win...this is why individual tournments are not a true barometer for team talent but it is something we have to deal with now that our entire State Series is focused primarily on Individual Tournaments. I feel that if a team can field a second varsity and can go and compete with other varsity teams that should be fine. Its better for the sport for kids to get matches and be able to participate. MattM- I agree with you, of course there will be possibility for people to take advantage of this but kids can dodge guys now and if a coach is willing to send a guy to a another tournament to avoid a stud, he is more than willing to just sit the kid out of that meet and at that point it becomes a coaching ethics issue. I know Penn is my mortal enemy but I would gather that Brad would never use that as some sort of advantage. In the end the kids still have to wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I wasn't referring to Penn. I could no more talk about Penn than I could talk about Cantonese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 basically an example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 basically an example Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Hornet Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 it doesnt help any team that doesnt have one haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 doesnt hurt em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach McCormick Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Certainly a good discussion piece. I think each person who has posted has made some valid observations regarding this situation. I remember when I wrestled at Delta in the early/mid 80's. When I was a freshman, I wrestled on the Delta freshman team. When we wrestled most other schools, we would wrestle that school's 9th grade team. Back then, our wrestling competition model looked much like football or basketball still looks today. When I was a sophomore, I was on Delta's JV team and we would compete against other schools' FULL JV squads. It is getting harder and harder to find quality JV competition opportunities for kids. I hate that for our sport, but that is the reality these days. This can be a sensitive matter as a variety of people place different levels of emphasis on Varsity vs Junior Varsity. Personally, I think people get too hung up on these two terms. I like it that coaches who have 70 kids on their team send a Varsity "b" squad out to compete at varsity events. In the absence of full 9th grade and JV events, coaches are forced to "think outside of the box" in getting their kids matches. The final determination falls on the coach as to what level of competition he thinks his Varsity "b" kids are ready to take on. Coach McCormick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 It definitely doesn't hurt the school without a JV team unless another school wants to discredit the matches wrestled against a JV team later in the season. I think the issue is, if a school has two different teams representing on the same Saturday, how can they both be counted as varsity matches? Either both are varsity and the school has used 4 weigh-in points (feel free to discuss whether this is a correct application of the rules, but I think that it is), or the "B" team is participating in JV matches, which should not count toward any one's win-loss record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 There are pros and cons. Another positive is that when a varsity team drops out of a tournament, a B team or JV team can replace them in short notice. This provides the other schools in the tournament an opportunity to varsity wrestlers to wrestle more matches and the JV kids get matches against varsity competiton. I think this has been the case for a lot of the JV teams wrestling in these tournaments this year and neccessarily wasn't planned when the schedule was made. I think seeding complications are very minimal. Lets face it, there are lot of kids on JV teams that would be very competitive at the varsity level and there a lot of kids that are on varsity that wouldnt do well on JV. It just matters how you're lineup stacks up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I should clarify that I'm not against this practice. I think the IHSAA should give a more clear direction in execution of such practices though. I just think a team that has been deemed as V2 or B team shouldn't go towards an official varsity record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimtown 138 Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I should clarify that I'm not against this practice. I think the IHSAA should give a more clear direction in execution of such practices though. I just think a team that has been deemed as V2 or B team shouldn't go towards an official varsity record. I think as a team, no. But individually I wouldn't have a problem with it. Eventually every school will have only one per weight class when the state tourney starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlittlejohn Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I say lets just wrestle! What it all comes down to is experience and achievement. Competition on any level provides the experience needed to improve; which, will enable advancement toward the achievement of a positive successful experience during the time an individual is involved in the sport. In the end only 16 wrestlers will be competing in each weight class for a state championship and the IHSAA guarantees that only one wrestler will represent any one school at a weight class. So, everyone is afforded the same opportunity to achieve that level of success, and; if it is true about the wrestleback situation, that opportunity just became greater. However, it is within the control of the coaches to build their respective program to the best of their ability. Some have better situations than others. Some have built the programs themselves, some have inherited solid programs, and some just simply benefit from school size and/or location. Not all things are equal, but, the opportunity is and in most cases success and structure of a program rests with the commitment and dedication of the coaches in adapting to, utilizing and taking advantage of the environment of the community to which they belong. Those who are able to do those things deserve the success that they breed and the respect of those who care about the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen_Wrestler Posted December 17, 2012 Author Share Posted December 17, 2012 I am not connected with any team losing to a "JV" team. I am just a huge fan of the sport that has been involved in many levels. Take a program that cannot field two teams or an athletic program that won't send a second varsity team out to a tourney, where does that leave them? A team may have three kids in similar weight classes that are all competitive, but are unable to field or fund an alternative. Also, if you don't think it will cause seeding issues, you probably have never sat in on a seeding meeting for the Al Smith Classic. From what I hear, Clay had an issue where they did not wrestle Penn "JV" at a tournament. I do believe that the coach had the best interest of his team in mind. I believe this trend, if it continues will hurt "JV" programs and thus the sport in the majority of schools that cannot or won't be allowed to create the extra team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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