beachbum21 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Question for anyone who was at this match: I heard the final score was 41 - 27. Belmont was without their best wrestler, Busse. Is it reasonable to assume that the final could have been 35-33 Tigers, if Busse was in? Did the Tigers wrestle any back ups, was they at full strength? Which begs to ask another question, if Yorktown is #1 in AA, how can can there be a "State Tournament" without a school like Belmont. EVERYONE knows that History shows that Belmont will be 20+ points better at the end of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caleb Spires Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Question for anyone who was at this match: I heard the final score was 41 - 27. Belmont was without their best wrestler, Busse. Is it reasonable to assume that the final could have been 35-33 Tigers, if Busse was in? Did the Tigers wrestle any back ups, was they at full strength? Which begs to ask another question, if Yorktown is #1 in AA, how can can there be a "State Tournament" without a school like Belmont. EVERYONE knows that History shows that Belmont will be 20+ points better at the end of the year. The score difference is assuming that the Bellmont 195 was pinned. That may not be the case since Yorktown's 195 pounder went 1-3. Not to mention their line up now is probably different than it will be by team state, such as Schuyler Phillips at 126 and Chandler Carroll at 145. And according to their results, they don't have a heavyweight yet which may have made a difference. Bellmont graduated 11(I think) kids last year and this state tournament for this year judged who had the most and best underclassmen returning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 With this new system teams that graduate 9+ seniors will almost never be selected to go to the IHSWCA team state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Even with 10 seniors and only one guy past regional coming back, they still were very near the coaches' vote cutoff. They had a very subpar season (and specifically individual postseason) by their standards AND lost 10 starters. If they had been anywhere near their normal postseason success level, even with losing 10, they would have qualified because the points project them to replace those points well. Losing 10 isn't the issue in itself if individuals perform and earn the points they need for their team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Belmont was ranked 17th, that isn't very close to getting in when there are only 8 teams selected. They would have had to have 8 teams decline an invite for them to be invited. Based on the ratings Belmont would not have even made the IHSWCA NIT tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachbum21 Posted November 25, 2012 Author Share Posted November 25, 2012 I understand the "scoring criteria" under this IHSWCA tournament guidelines, the only reason I brought this up is to spur discussion on the criteria. If we want this tournament to be successful there needs to be a better way to determine who qualifies, otherwise this tournament should be called nothing more than an IHSWCA Invitational based on last years underclassmen performance. If you have 1underclassman that places at state and another makes it to stae, and another 2 get out of regional that is in NO way a reflection that you will have a top dual team the next year. I don't have the answers but I just think there are some things to look at to solidify and really validate this tournament. Don't take this as a slam on the tournament or the ones who have put in a lot of time organizing it. Just some discussion to help improve it. I just used the Yorktown / Belmont match as an example. I am sure there are other examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 It looks like a slam especially when these concerns are brought up ex post facto. Any selection process can have holes punched in it and Im sure the group who put it together is open to further tweaking. If you are truly interested in it being a success, i would suggest supporting it now and offer your input for improvement after the first one is over. To do otherwise looks like sour grapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachbum21 Posted November 26, 2012 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 "It looks like a slam especially when these concerns are brought up ex post facto. Any selection process can have holes punched in it and Im sure the group who put it together is open to further tweaking. If you are truly interested in it being a success, i would suggest supporting it now and offer your input for improvement after the first one is over. To do otherwise looks like sour grapes." In no way did I slam anyone. I 100% agree that any and all selection processes can be critized in one way or another. No sour grapes here, I will be in attendance this year to support it. However, this is a discussion board and one way to make improvements is to "discuss", keep an open mind, listen to ALL sides and probably one of the most important, not be so defensive. Business 101, the first plan usually is not the best but rather a starting point. Please do not try and turn my post into something it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Thats why i suggested waiting until after to criticize the selection process. I have no reason to be defensive, its not my criteria. I appologize if i misinterpreted a bellmont fan using a bellmont example to criticize the criteria as sour grapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachbum21 Posted November 26, 2012 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 Appology accepted. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Belmont was ranked 17th, that isn't very close to getting in when there are only 8 teams selected. They would have had to have 8 teams decline an invite for them to be invited. Based on the ratings Belmont would not have even made the IHSWCA NIT tournament. IHSWCA NIT. I like it. I hope you put that on the trophies. What I meant was points-wise. They had 196. With even a couple more key wins, they would have had the 216 necessary to be in the last round of voting where they almost certainly would have been chosen by the coaches based on past success. What's really crippling about the process is the fact that we can't select an 8th team in-season because the promised scheduling exemption wasn't given. Still, we have the data that shows the 24 teams that would have been selected by the same procedures last year would have had 22 representatives in the year-end Top 10. I hope we can get to no mistakes eventually, but we'll have to live with 2 or 3 errors each year for the short-term it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 To further clarify why Bellmont fell short in points: Muncie South (the final at-large selection...others ahead of them had even better resumes) 7 at 2012 semi-state 2 at 2012 state 12 returning starters (5 semi-state or state) Bellmont 8 at 2012 semi-state 4 at 2012 state 4 returning starters (1 semi-state or state) Even if you like Bellmont's ability to replace its talent better than South (because of its slightly more semi-state and state qualifiers), there's no responsible "year-early" point system where the second set of results could beat the first when they're coming through the same regional path. To be clear, there were only a couple teams in the whole state that had 10 seniors, so this scenario is not common. And again, if they had performed as they normally do, they would have qualified with ease. It was a perfect combination of circumstances (including some other teams that have very strong returning teams). It's too bad we don't have an all-in tournament, but Bellmont not making it this year was an impossible one to rectify short of just giving a reputation berth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blane Culp Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 You guys can say whatever you want about the computers, but anyone that has ever had to wrestle Bellmont in the tournament series knows they are one of the best coached teams in Indiana. They have missed a total of TWO state tournaments in its entire tournament history. How many years now has Yorktown or some other great wrestling school beat Bellmont early in the year, and then lost to them in the tournament? I appreciate the IHSWCA attempts at getting this done right. However, I was dissappointed to see Bellmont not in the 3A tournament, then was furious when I found out they were not even selected for 2A. Show them some kind of respect please. I hope they find ways to correct this issue and make changes in the next year or two so that it doesn't become the BCS of Indiana Wrestling. I think the computer is a great starting point thought! Great teams have great JV wrestlers as well, not just a great Varsity team. Tradition doesn't graduate. Blane Culp Columbia City Wrestling (a rival of Bellmont!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Short Jay Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Well said Blane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachbum21 Posted November 26, 2012 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 It is not the same, win matches in a different season with different wrestler... 100% not the same. I also want to make clear, my post IS NOT about any one school, but about making this process better for the future. Right now North Montgomery and Portage are the teams that should feel slighted. They are the only teams to date that i am aware of that have beaten invited schools in their class and they were not invited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 First, I am surprised the Bellmont people have not complained about the missing "l" in the title... ;D I would disagree with Blaine, tradition may not graduate but talent does graduate. Yes, the current system worked for my school this year but maybe it wont work for us in the future. But this is an event that could help us regain the tradition we once had that rivaled that of Bellmont and other dominant schools. And yes, I do believe that we belong in the duals and have the team to be very successful in the duals. AJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 And yes, I do believe that we belong in the duals and have the team to be very successful in the duals. I would hope so. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 It is not the same, win matches in a different season with different wrestler... 100% not the same. I also want to make clear, my post IS NOT about any one school, but about making this process better for the future. Right now North Montgomery and Portage are the teams that should feel slighted. They are the only teams to date that i am aware of that have beaten invited schools in their class and they were not invited. Portage beat Elkhart Memorial, who was an automatic bid from Fort Wayne, where no 3A school had a very high score. That said, there are plenty of schools out there that are good enough to win duals against many of the invited teams--just as the state finalists every single year have losses that came from teams that are not at state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachbum21 Posted November 26, 2012 Author Share Posted November 26, 2012 True. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook and half Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 It is not the same, win matches in a different season with different wrestler... 100% not the same. I also want to make clear, my post IS NOT about any one school, but about making this process better for the future. Right now North Montgomery and Portage are the teams that should feel slighted. They are the only teams to date that i am aware of that have beaten invited schools in their class and they were not invited. i do not know why they might feel slighted; were the selection criteria changed in order to eliminate them? i have actually read the selection criteria and commend the association for a thoughtful and informed set of criterion. i would encourage them to take input after the tournament and carefully consider making some, if any changes. it often gets lost that the ihswca not only saved this event, but has expanded it and made some dramatic improvements, such as seeding. as far as teams getting additional consideration for a "great coaching staff" and "they are tough at the end of the year"....well that just seems silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Portage beat Elkhart Memorial, who was an automatic bid from Fort Wayne, where no 3A school had a very high score. That said, there are plenty of schools out there that are good enough to win duals against many of the invited teams--just as the state finalists every single year have losses that came from teams that are not at state. Portage did beat us this year but we were not yet at full strength, yet a win is a win. And they beat us fair and square. They have a very good team and would do a fine job in the "new" state series. But the one thing that everyone has to realize that the way a state champion is now going to be crowned by the IHSAA is based on how your guys do in the individual state tournament. That is truly about as inaccurate as you can get. It says nothing about your "team". So the "new" way the coaches are doing it is far superior to anything other than a true tournament. In the end, I think the true state champion is going to be the victor 99% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 One more tidbit of analysis to add in here: Yorktown actually averaged 18 points better than Bellmont in score differential across the 5 duals on Saturday (cumulative score differential is the single most accurate predictor of future success). Even if you assume Busse gives Bellmont a very generous 5 extra average points per match (their JV would no doubt get some 3s and 6s here and there that makes it impossible to assume higher), Yorktown still projects to be 13 points better on average across all duals (even with Yorktown having no 285...don't know if they have one coming). This isn't the end of the story since Bellmont does seem to improve always during the year, but for now, this is where the teams stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Winning Sectional=the only thing that matters to this Bellmont fan Who cares about a tournament where invitations are given instead of earned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Who cares about a tournament where invitations are given instead of earned... are you saying that these teams did not earn their spot??? I thought the "invitations" were given based off of performance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 I for one could care less about this ISWCA invite and I only cared a little more about the IHSAA team tourney when it existed (this season, my son's h.s. lost a team from their super dual that decided to attend the ISWCA event which was disappointing). I get the fact that having some team competition might help make the sport more popular in the long run but in the end, it's all about the individual's performance, IMO. Am I biased? Sure. I was never on a "machine" wrestling team nor were any of my sons. That being said, I have always viewed wrestling as an individual sport as opposed to a team sport. If team champs are based on individual performance (Coaches Trophy at state), all the better. Frankly, the IHSAA Team champ will more than likely be the ISWCA 3A or 2A champ most years anyway so what difference doe it make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts