Tsirtsis vs Howe

[Jayruss]

If they were the same weight and both seniors, who would win and what would the score be? I am going with Tsirtsis 7-4

[Smooth34]

Which Tsirtsis?

[maligned]

Assuming all are seniors in high school:

 

Howe over Alex, 4-2, with Howe mostly controlling the action.

 

Jason over Howe, 5-4.  Jason is so polished right now for a high schooler.  I think he could have gotten a couple early takedowns on Howe and then Andrew would have pushed the pace late and made it a nail-biter.  Howe was dominant at Fargo, etc., his senior year, but slightly less dominant than Jason.

This doesn't mean I think Jason will ascend to the level Howe is at (one of the best in the world at his weight and one of the best in the U.S. at any weight).  Howe has worked unbelievably hard.  If Jason works as hard as Howe has, though, the sky is the limit.

[FormerHornet]

Howe.  Only loss in High School was to Humphrey otherwise he is a 4x State Champ.  Now one of the best wrestlers in the United States of America not just Div-1.  And only wrestler to Tech is way through state almost did it 2x in a row.  Jason and Alex both amazing, no one is doubting that, but Howe is probably the best Indiana wrestler ever.

[Smooth34]

I take Howe over Alex.

 

I'd take Jason over Howe for many of the same reasons Maligned stated.  Jason could've teched everyone at state.  He almost teched the #2 guy in the country.  Only beat him by 14.  He also has a win over a former National Champion. 

[Jayruss]

Meant Jason sorry

[Regionrat1]

Howe.  Only loss in High School was to Humphrey otherwise he is a 4x State Champ.  Now one of the best wrestlers in the United States of America not just Div-1.  And only wrestler to Tech is way through state almost did it 2x in a row.  Jason and Alex both amazing, no one is doubting that, but Howe is probably the best Indiana wrestler ever.

 

Jason is good but Drew ain't gonna get touched. Best In Indiana ever bare none !!

[hammer]

Tough call!  Tsirtsis broke the #2 guy in the country, halfway through their match.  I don't recall Howe doing that as a HS wrestler.  Although, Howe just did not give up points, so it's hard to say if Tsirtsis' seemingly unstoppable offense would defeat Howe's seemingly impenetrable defense.  It's a tossup! 

 

One thing that I think people need to remember though, is that the fact that Jason lost twice in HS, and that Andrew only lost once, isn't relevant.  We are talking Senior vs. Senior.  Freshman year comparisons should only matter if we are talking about who would win when bother were Freshman. 

[maligned]

Tough call!  Tsirtsis broke the #2 guy in the country, halfway through their match.  I don't recall Howe doing that as a HS wrestler.  Although, Howe just did not give up points, so it's hard to say if Tsirtsis' seemingly unstoppable offense would defeat Howe's seemingly impenetrable defense.  It's a tossup! 

 

One thing that I think people need to remember though, is that the fact that Jason lost twice in HS, and that Andrew only lost once, isn't relevant.  We are talking Senior vs. Senior.  Freshman year comparisons should only matter if we are talking about who would win when bother were Freshman. 

 

Even the freshman discussion of one loss versus two losses seems silly.  Howe lost only to a senior with loads of national success and Tsirtsis (although he did lose one perplexing match to a guy he dominated other times) avenged his most famous loss in beating a senior that became a Fargo national champ.  These 2 would have been an amazing matchup at any equal grade year.

[BrennanFan]

Jason has the benefit of wrestling so many of the big tourneys. He just keeps getting better and better. I'd pick him over Howe 5-1. However, if Cosgrove had the same opportunity as Jason I could see him become a 4 time NCAA Champion.

[1gold]

Im a Jason fan .. but if they wrestle today , Howe dominates him..  If u are comparing high school talent then its a toss up.

[maligned]

Im a Jason fan .. but if they wrestle today , Howe dominates him.. 

 

That much is clear, for sure.  The question was posed as this: if they were both seniors in high school at the same weight, who wins?

[FormerHornet]

That much is clear, for sure.  The question was posed as this: if they were both seniors in high school at the same weight, who wins?

 

My answer still remains Howe.  They both started High School at 125, correct?  Jason had two losses one of them being to Quiroga who was a monster beating everyone in his way until losing to Jason at state.  Despite how dominate and amazing Quiroga was he was not better than Humphrey one of Indiana's historical best.  Howe's only loss was to Humphrey. 

 

Howe was a machine.  Jason is an awesome wrestler and is going to have a great career and both him and Howe while in high school were clearly the best wrestlers in Indiana.  But Howe gets the nod if they go head to head.  I agree with the Region Rat... Howe is the best grappler from Indiana ever.

[Smooth34]

My answer still remains Howe.  They both started High School at 125, correct?  Jason had two losses one of them being to Quiroga who was a monster beating everyone in his way until losing to Jason at state.  Despite how dominate and amazing Quiroga was he was not better than Humphrey one of Indiana's historical best.  Howe's only loss was to Humphrey. 

 

Howe was a machine.  Jason is an awesome wrestler and is going to have a great career and both him and Howe while in high school were clearly the best wrestlers in Indiana.  But Howe gets the nod if they go head to head.  I agree with the Region Rat... Howe is the best grappler from Indiana ever.

 

I agree that Howe was probably better than Jason as a freshman, although I'm not sure Andrew had a better win as a freshman than Jason did over Cashe. 

 

As a senior, I think Jason is the best ever from Indiana.

[FormerHornet]

I agree that Howe was probably better than Jason as a freshman, although I'm not sure Andrew had a better win as a freshman than Jason did over Cashe.  

 

As a senior, I think Jason is the best ever from Indiana.

 

I think this is a "what have you done for me lately" debate.  Jason is fresh in everyone's minds.  It is extremely tough to compare.  Just like in football could Jim Brown still play today and be just as dominant?  I think the best way to look is their entire body of work in high school.  And in the very near future for Jason college.  In my opinion Howe is better-the best ever in Indiana.  Jason is stellar.  But both of them are fantastic wrestlers and great ambassadors for Indiana.  

 

I think the best thing about this debate is how much better Indiana wrestling is getting.  Individual's like Howe, Tsirtsis, Humphrey, Angel, Quiroga, and Walpole making noise and competing at a very high level. (Sorry if I forgot any others that should be mentioned).

[Bruschi]

I think if we were going senior vs. senior year.  Jason had the better resume, but would he win?? Be a great match.  If we were going overall high school career, I still think Jason had the better resume.  It is amazing how close they were.  They both won their sophomore titles in high school in overtime match.  Here are just some stats on both wrestlers below.

 

Howe 3 time state champ only one loss to Reece

2005 placed third at Fargo as a cadet: 3rd ? Andrew Howe (IN) dec. Alec Ortiz (OR), 8-5, ot, 4:24

2006 placed DNP or maybe did not particpate???

2007 placed third at Fargo as a junior:  3rd Andrew Howe (Indiana) over Jedd Moore (Ohio) Dec 2-0, 2-0

2008 placed first at Fargo as a junior: 1st Andrew Howe (Indiana) over Alex Meade (Delaware) Dec 0-1,3-0,6-2

 

Just a few notes on Andrew's senior year.  He did not compete in Dapper Dan or Dream Team because Jason Welch and Scott Winston were ranked above him.  He did beat Conrad Polz by 1 point in the Illinois/Indiana dual.  If we are comparing senior years this would be a big factor.

 

I am not sure if he competed at Fila Cadets??

 

Jason 4 time state champ (two losses Quiorga and Napules).

2008 placed 4th at Fargo as a Cadet: 3rd Jesse Delgado (California) over Jason Tsirtsis (Indiana) Dec 6-0,2-1

2009 placed 2nd at Fargo as a Cadet: 1st - Edwin Cooper (Illinois) over Jason Tsirtsis (Indiana) Dec 4-2,2-1

2010 placed 3rd at Fago as a Junior:3rd Jason Tsirtsis (Indiana) over Taylor Moeder (Kansas) Dec 4-0,1-1,7-0

2011 placed 1st at Fago as a Junior: 1st Jason beat Short 1-0, 1-0

2012 still unknown

 

Jason is a two time Fila Cadet champ.

He won the Dapper Dan by 9 points and beat the second ranked guy in the nation by 14 at the Dream Team.  He pinned the Illinois state champ in the Ill/In dual.

 

It would have been a great match.  I don't think you can go wrong with saying either was the best from Indiana in high school. Hope Jason's career turns out as good as Howe's.

[NICfan]

I think it depends, begining of their senior year or at the end? Tsirtsis seemed to wrestle so much better at the end of the season and seems untouchable (against hs comp) he did beat the 1the number two wrestler in the nation by 14a points. Both are amazing, and only stricktly looking at senior season (not freshmen, not howes ncca placements) id give tsirtsis the nod based purely off national dominance

[wildcatcountry97]

Again - it appears wrestling only started in Indiana in about the year 2000.

 

This is a tired, boring topic - How (no pun intended) about something relevant -

USA vs Georgia last week, .. Grapple in the Apple ... where Bunch or Humphrey make an Olympic team..., Howe to Oklahoma, Joey D leaving Indiana  - There are plenty of Indiana - related topics to discuss

 

Or, if you want to compare wrestlers how about Olympic wrestlers; at least something more interesting than two guys who just wrestled high school in the last 10 years or so. If you're a young fella broaden your knowledge base- check out some guys like:

Dave & Mark Schultz, Lee Kemp, the Brands Brothers, Kenny Monday, John Smith, Hodge, Randy Lewis, Ed and Lou Banach, Zeke Jones ...

 

Watch some video on these guys and compare them to each other, or past and present.

 

[maligned]

Again - it appears wrestling only started in Indiana in about the year 2000.

 

This is a tired, boring topic - How (no pun intended) about something relevant -

USA vs Georgia last week, .. Grapple in the Apple ... where Bunch or Humphrey make an Olympic team..., Howe to Oklahoma, Joey D leaving Indiana  - There are plenty of Indiana - related topics to discuss

 

Or, if you want to compare wrestlers how about Olympic wrestlers; at least something more interesting than two guys who just wrestled high school in the last 10 years or so. If you're a young fella broaden your knowledge base- check out some guys like:

Dave & Mark Schultz, Lee Kemp, the Brands Brothers, Kenny Monday, John Smith, Hodge, Randy Lewis, Ed and Lou Banach, Zeke Jones ...

 

Watch some video on these guys and compare them to each other, or past and present.

 

 

It's funny that people would discuss Indiana high school wrestling on an Indiana high school wrestling board--and repeatedly, at that.  Crazies.

 

I know all the names you mention, have watched some of them live, and have seen most of them at least on video.  I still enjoy discussions like this thread and find it quite normal for a high school board.  If you need an outlet, there's lots of good international and olympic discussion right now on the usawrestling and tom boards.  That's where I'm getting my fix.  Or, you could start a thread about Times Square, for example, and we'd happily chime in.  Have a nice day.

[brickfor6]

Howe.  Only loss in High School was to Humphrey otherwise he is a 4x State Champ.  Now one of the best wrestlers in the United States of America not just Div-1.  And only wrestler to Tech is way through state almost did it 2x in a row.  Jason and Alex both amazing, no one is doubting that, but Howe is probably the best Indiana wrestler ever.

doesn't matter if they lost every match as a freshman. look at jason he has a some losses, matters what they look like as a senior. oh reece was a 3Xer, like it matters. howe over alex. jason over howe.

[MCKAJC]

Again - it appears wrestling only started in Indiana in about the year 2000.

 

This is a tired, boring topic - How (no pun intended) about something relevant -

USA vs Georgia last week, .. Grapple in the Apple ... where Bunch or Humphrey make an Olympic team..., Howe to Oklahoma, Joey D leaving Indiana  - There are plenty of Indiana - related topics to discuss

 

Or, if you want to compare wrestlers how about Olympic wrestlers; at least something more interesting than two guys who just wrestled high school in the last 10 years or so. If you're a young fella broaden your knowledge base- check out some guys like:

Dave & Mark Schultz, Lee Kemp, the Brands Brothers, Kenny Monday, John Smith, Hodge, Randy Lewis, Ed and Lou Banach, Zeke Jones ...

 

Watch some video on these guys and compare them to each other, or past and present.

 

 

WAIT, WHAT???

I had to do a double take on this post. It actually looked more stupid the second time. How about we compare whoever the F we want, and let you do the same??? WOW!! And in spite of your disrespect for Indiana wrestling, I'll give you some much needed help. START YOUR OWN DAM THREAD if you don't like this one. No pun intended

[wildcatcountry97]

Wildcat: .....Grapple in the Apple ... where Bunch or Humphrey (INDIANA) can make an Olympic team..., Howe (INDIANA) to Oklahoma, Joey D (INDIANA UNIVERSITY) leaving Indiana  -

 

Maligned:

It's funny that people would discuss Indiana high school wrestling on an Indiana high school wrestling board--and repeatedly, at that.  Crazies.

 

I think I included several topics related to Indiana in my suggestion there, Maligned. 

 

And yes, MCKAJC... you are free to discuss whatever topics you want, no matter how trivial or trite. My point was, that there are plenty of relevant, interesting, topics pertaining to INDIANA wrestling, or the advancement of our sport in general that could be discussed. Nearly all who post to these topics have no knowledge that wrestling existed prior to 2000 or so.

 

Also, I'm really not sure you know what a Pun is....

 

[maligned]

Wildcat,

 

I wrote this on another thread:

 

I enjoy reading your posts and appreciate the effort to draw out a little international talk.  Truth be told, I get bored of some of the same regurgitated discussions too (and I was serious when I said I check out other boards more right now).  My only point was that I'm not sure we should have any other expectation from a high school site than that there's a lot of high school or ex-indiana high schooler talk (that focuses on their high school career maybe more than college or int'l).