unclelouie Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Restructuring the IHSWCA and they being on the forefront of addressing ethical and other issues that try to skirt the IHSAA rules. When a coach teeters on an ethical issue someone within the IHSWCA addresses their concerns to them and reminds them that while it may help their team in the short term, that in the long term it is not good for our sport. Thank You for this statement. I hope you you are referring to all ethical issues.I believe a lack of ethics has been the greatest downfall of Indiana High School Wrestling. As you have stated it is one of the reasons the IHSAA discontinued the Team State Tournament. Much of the failing ethics is at the top of our leadership. P.S. By the way Cute Kid. She must take after her mother. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 My question is , How the heck is EN not ranked . Was very impressed with them last night . that's for sure.....as with any match, one day it might be the one team winning and the next time, the other......EN could have beat memorial or penn on a given day in my opinion and i don't think their name ever came up in the ranking......and they had one forfeit to boot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 OK I'll bite. Suppose for a moment that you are heading the ethics committee for the IHSWCA. How would you address a coach who makes in your estimation an ethical mistake by sending a JV lineup to team regional? What power or control does the IHSWCA have currently to correct/punish/admonish/penalize this coach? I agree with you that there needs to be more ethical behavior among coaches as a whole, but how can this group that you yourself classify as fairly helpless do anything to a coach that would be of any substance? If the IHSAA would grant this group the ability to recommend action that the IHSAA would follow through on, then I think it's worth beating this drum. But if we are acting as an association only, what teeth do we have to make these penalties stick? Right now, the association could deny a coach the ability to have his team participate in the Classed Duals, deny the offending team Academic All-State nominations, or release a statement condemning the actions of the offending coach. In the first two cases, the kids lose. Not a big fan of punishing kids for adult mistakes. The third amounts to a "No, No, You don't do that!" which means little. What if the offending coach is not a member of the association? Would they be subject to the same penalties? In theory, this sounds like a good idea. But it will take a lot more ideas to make something like this work. First off I would consult with the football coaches association and see what their policies and procedures are for ethical violations and proceed to model the IHSWCA's off of those. Secondly, after sectional champions are determined I would fire an email out to the sectional champions explaining the importance of bringing your studs to regional and how it would be good for the sport as a whole. I would also explain how the IHSAA views the tournament and they feel it is a slap in the face when you bring your JV squad. Penalties could be things like simply a letter to the AD, principal or superintendent, preventing participation in the IHSWCA Duals, prevention of kids being on Academic All-State, Scholastic Duals teams or Indiana vs. Illinois contests. While those actions would hurt the kids, the coach would learn very quickly when a kid's parents blast him for being an idiot and not having their kid on those teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infowrestling Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I really like the idea of mirroring the Football Coach's Association. Several football players cross over into wrestling each year, and if we can attach ourselves to football, it could be a step in the right direction. It doesn't matter what athletic label people want to attach to their state, i.e. a basketball state, wrestling state, football state, football is always king, like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phscoach Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 First off I would consult with the football coaches association and see what their policies and procedures are for ethical violations and proceed to model the IHSWCA's off of those. I am an IFCA member. I have a copy of the ethics code. It is a good model to base one off of if the IHSWCA does not have one in place. Are you a member of the IHSWCA? If so, since it was your idea and you said you would, would you like to draft a code and present it to the IHSWCA? If not, I don't mind to work on that. Again, notice that in a small conversation, we actually could have a plan in place for change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phscoach Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 My sticking point is still how to deal with ethics violations by non-members. It could be an issue in our sport more than football because at this point football (I would assume) has a higher membership percentage than wrestling. I don't know. Just still something that is fuzzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insanoflex Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I've been following this thread with great interest, and as a former coach, I'd like to chip in my two cents (1.9 cents in Canada--check the current exchange rates) on the "renegade programs" and ethical issues. There was a school that we used to wrestle in a dual, and the match was more akin to a street fight than a sport (initiated by the other team, but I won't say my guys were choir boys and didn't retaliate, which didn't sit well with me). So I took action as I saw fit: we stopped scheduling them. Think about it: if your AD hires a wrestling official who (sorry Chuck, just a hypothetical) consistently misses calls (and I know a lot of the interpretations are subjective), would you schedule that official again? No coach in his right mind would, granted I realize the AD does this hiring, but I would let him/her know that I don't want to see that official on our mat again. The same can be done for schools who continually "play the edge" with coaching ethics. I do realize this would not be the easiest undertaking, but think what sort of message you send to a team when no other school wants to wrestle them? The smart money says changes will be made in the violating program if this were to happen. Granted I know conference affiliations and current contracts might make this tougher than what I've outlined, but it could happen and Indiana wrestling as an entity could police itself. Or I could be tilting at windmills with this idea. It was just a thought that crossed my mind when the sanctioning issue came up in a post. Upon rereading this, I realize I'm quite paranthetical, so I apologize if that bothers anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Aaron, Check your email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewrestlingdude Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Oh please... do not give football coaches that much credit. They cheat, recruit and disagree with each other about the issues facing their sport with the best of them. There are some great football coaches out there, but there are just as many lame unethical ones also. I would say that in a few years the IHSAA will come down on them and say, "We gave your coaches association a chance to police the summer workout issue and you couldn't fix it, so now we will." We don't have team state anymore because it DID NOT make money for the IHSAA plain and SIMPLE. The other issues about coaches not sending the "right" squad to regionals is just a scapegoat for the IHSAA to hide behind. The coaches associations are ran by COACHES....so lets say Joe that you get an email from Coach McCommick sends you an email that Bashing other coaches on this site may help you in the short run but hurts our sport in the long run, is that really going to hold any merit with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 My sticking point is still how to deal with ethics violations by non-members. It could be an issue in our sport more than football because at this point football (I would assume) has a higher membership percentage than wrestling. I don't know. Just still something that is fuzzy. A phone call to the offending schools AD by a respected local coach or administrator should get a coach's attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 I am an IFCA member. I have a copy of the ethics code. It is a good model to base one off of if the IHSWCA does not have one in place. Are you a member of the IHSWCA? If so, since it was your idea and you said you would, would you like to draft a code and present it to the IHSWCA? If not, I don't mind to work on that. Again, notice that in a small conversation, we actually could have a plan in place for change. No I am not a member this year after being a member for probably 6 or 7 years. I proposed a few simple ideas when I was a regional rep, but they were shot down. Ideas like this will take more than one person to gain steam. My sticking point is still how to deal with ethics violations by non-members. It could be an issue in our sport more than football because at this point football (I would assume) has a higher membership percentage than wrestling. I don't know. Just still something that is fuzzy. You deal with them the same way, whether they are members or not. The IHSWCA represents ALL coaches whether they are members or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phscoach Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 No I am not a member this year after being a member for probably 6 or 7 years. I proposed a few simple ideas when I was a regional rep, but they were shot down. Ideas like this will take more than one person to gain steam. You deal with them the same way, whether they are members or not. The IHSWCA represents ALL coaches whether they are members or not. I am judging by the response to Wednesday's events that more than just one person sees the need for a tangible response to ethical questions. I think the steam is gathered. It just so happens that it is vented by folks popping off on here instead. I like your second statement. Takes the union/non-union feel out of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Bring back Honor and dignity over winning in our sport and we will be better for it. Wrestling is a combat sport. Adrenalin runs high. People get hurt. We all know that and we all know that is what we signed up for. Send your best guys out there every-time and see what happens. Stop trying to find the easy way out and the loop holes that may help you or your wrestler advance. That is not why we love this sport. If you can't earn it. It does not belong to you. That is the way it used to be and that is the way it should be now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 With the departure of the team state series, so departs one of the primary reasons for the so-called ethical violation of sending 1/2 a team or a team full of jv wrestlers to team regionals. As I read the posts, that is the primary focus. So good riddance, I say. There will be fewer ethical violations now that the temptation of team state isn't there. Frankly, I really don't think it an ethical violation to send a jv team to team regional. Sorry folks, but wrestling still is an individual sport. When a coach decides he wants to save his kids for the indivdual competition, that's his perogative and my guess is his kids really don't have an issue with it either. Boo hoo all you want for the second place sectional team that would have "gladly" sent their entire varsity squad to team regional and "given their all." They should have won sectionals if they wanted a shot at team regionals so badly. If we're talking etical violations, let's stop talking about the coach sending his jv squad to team regionals (the guy who knows he has no shot at advancing), and instead let's talk about the unethical bull crap that gets pulled by the teams that have a legit shot at winning a team title. Now that is a whole new subject on ethics no one wants to talk about but is very real. With no team state title to contend for, those very real ethical violations will disappear. I for one am delighted with the demise of team state as it exists in it's current state. The focus on wrestling should be the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornton Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 With the departure of the team state series, so departs one of the primary reasons for the so-called ethical violation of sending 1/2 a team or a team full of jv wrestlers to team regionals. As I read the posts, that is the primary focus. So good riddance, I say. There will be fewer ethical violations now that the temptation of team state isn't there. Frankly, I really don't think it an ethical violation to send a jv team to team regional. Sorry folks, but wrestling still is an individual sport. When a coach decides he wants to save his kids for the indivdual competition, that's his perogative and my guess is his kids really don't have an issue with it either. Boo hoo all you want for the second place sectional team that would have "gladly" sent their entire varsity squad to team regional and "given their all." They should have won sectionals if they wanted a shot at team regionals so badly. If we're talking etical violations, let's stop talking about the coach sending his jv squad to team regionals (the guy who knows he has no shot at advancing), and instead let's talk about the unethical bull crap that gets pulled by the teams that have a legit shot at winning a team title. Now that is a whole new subject on ethics no one wants to talk about but is very real. With no team state title to contend for, those very real ethical violations will disappear. I for one am delighted with the demise of team state as it exists in it's current state. The focus on wrestling should be the individual. So do you favor not handing out a team trophy at the individual state finals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 With the departure of the team state series, so departs one of the primary reasons for the so-called ethical violation of sending 1/2 a team or a team full of jv wrestlers to team regionals. As I read the posts, that is the primary focus. So good riddance, I say. There will be fewer ethical violations now that the temptation of team state isn't there. Frankly, I really don't think it an ethical violation to send a jv team to team regional. Sorry folks, but wrestling still is an individual sport. When a coach decides he wants to save his kids for the indivdual competition, that's his perogative and my guess is his kids really don't have an issue with it either. Boo hoo all you want for the second place sectional team that would have "gladly" sent their entire varsity squad to team regional and "given their all." They should have won sectionals if they wanted a shot at team regionals so badly. If we're talking etical violations, let's stop talking about the coach sending his jv squad to team regionals (the guy who knows he has no shot at advancing), and instead let's talk about the unethical bull crap that gets pulled by the teams that have a legit shot at winning a team title. Now that is a whole new subject on ethics no one wants to talk about but is very real. With no team state title to contend for, those very real ethical violations will disappear. I for one am delighted with the demise of team state as it exists in it's current state. The focus on wrestling should be the individual. Team state will be back in december of 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 So do you favor not handing out a team trophy at the individual state finals? Yes because it's based on individual performance. A sacrilege, I know, to those 10 teams that have a shot at a team title (classed tourney would up the opportunity to 30 teams). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munges Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Yes because it's based on individual performance. A sacrilege, I know, to those 10 teams that have a shot at a team title (classed tourney would up the opportunity to 30 teams). So is that a whole lot different from other sports in a given year? I would say that most people could predict which 10 teams have a chance of winning state in any sport any given year. So just because it is not a team I support I am not going to participate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Yes because it's based on individual performance. A sacrilege, I know, to those 10 teams that have a shot at a team title (classed tourney would up the opportunity to 30 teams). Check out the team champions of Swimming, Tennis, Cross Country, Golf etc.. all in a lot of ways individule sports somewhat and yes most all dominated by the same teams year in and year out. Why do people have such a tough time with programs with such traditions it's just the nature of the beast, and are we now getting to a generation where everyone has to be the champ at sometime or another? Some programs just have the best coaches, system, out of season clubs ,and kids and parents that's buying into that system that breeds winning and success!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I was wondering why another coach would call another coach out in this manner on a message board? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Team state will be back in december of 2012 I'm all for the Holiday Classic. It's an invite tourney, a best of the best classed tournament. The teams that go will be jacked to be there and there won't be any "half filled teams" showing up. On the other hand, the team that wins the title at Conseco (formrly known as the Coaches Trophy) will be, IMO, the true IHSAA team champ. That trophy will have more significance in a high school's trophy case than the winnner of the IHSWCA Team Holiday Classic Tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Check out the team champions of Swimming, Tennis, Cross Country, Golf etc.. all in a lot of ways individule sports somewhat and yes most all dominated by the same teams year in and year out. Why do people have such a tough time with programs with such traditions it's just the nature of the beast, and are we now getting to a generation where everyone has to be the champ at sometime or another? Some programs just have the best coaches, system, out of season clubs ,and kids and parents that's buying into that system that breeds winning and success!! The bolded statement has nothing at all to do with my point. Frankly, if the IHSAA came out and said no team would be crowned champion from this point forward, I would have no problem with that either. I really could give a crap who wins a team title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 I'm all for the Holiday Classic. It's an invite tourney, a best of the best classed tournament. The teams that go will be jacked to be there and there won't be any "half filled teams" showing up. On the other hand, the team that wins the title at Conseco (formrly known as the Coaches Trophy) will be, IMO, the true IHSAA team champ. That trophy will have more significance in a high school's trophy case than the winnner of the IHSWCA Team Holiday Classic Tournament. I wonder which one will have more significance with the team and coaches, a title won a with 2 studs and 3 other guys on the podium or a title won by 14 guys and selected backups winning 3 tough duals in the same day. If you are correct the Team Dual State Championship will go away or not get off the ground at all. If Indiana is like Ohio and Michigan than the dual state championships will become very popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I wonder which one will have more significance with the team and coaches, a title won a with 2 studs and 3 other guys on the podium or a title won by 14 guys and selected backups winning 3 tough duals in the same day. If you are correct the Team Dual State Championship will go away or not get off the ground at all. If Indiana is like Ohio and Michigan than the dual state championships will become very popular. I think the tourney will definitely get off the ground and im not against it at all. The more wrestling opportunities for kids the better. you are correct, coaches will feel better about a solid performance at the Holiday Classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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