IHSWCA New Proposal for a new Team State

[MattM]

If the early report was true about the IHSAA not counting a IHSWCA state dual team event as part of a teams total points, would they still feel the same way about those invited to the Hall of Fame Classic Showcase?

[tspray1]

I am not privy to all the talk in Indiana wrestling anymore.  However is it too much manpower to run a class dual team format for the entire series or just a weekend?  Why not look acrcoss the state after all of the conferences are done and Form a dual format after the individual state is over with.  They way you qualify as a team is you had to win your conference, you class it from there based on what ever school enrollment you choose.

 

 

 

Tim

[MattM]

 Why not look acrcoss the state after all of the conferences are done and Form a dual format after the individual state is over with.

 

IHSAA said the event must be complete prior to the individual tournament series.  They will not allow the season to extend just for a ISWCA dual team competition.   Though some type of ISWA club vs club event maybe possible afterward in some way.  Though it may be without a few wrestlers  (due to other commitments) and we would need to be careful when to have it and how to approach it so the IHSAA does hold it against us.  At least it would be a temporary option while coaches begin to organize their schedules for a legit in season plan.

[tspray1]

What is the official end date for the season?  It can be called club .. even if its 1 week after if the last date is the indvidual finals.. Not sure what the ihsaa could do about it..

[Coach Peck]

AJ,

 

NO i would not support this because it serves NO purpose.  A showcase dual tournament??? Are you kidding me?  Come to calumet duals, come to bellmont duals, go watch North Montgomery Duals.  Come watch Mishawaka vs. Penn or Perry vs. Cathedral, etc.  This does NOTHING for the sport of wrestling because it determines NOTHING new.  It does not crown the best team because you can't go every year which is absolutely dumb and one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.  Screw it - don't even keep track of points at Individual State.  We are all state champs every year.  You were too good the last few years so you can go to the hall of fame thing the next year...STUPID.  We and most teams already wrestle in good duals, dual tournaments, and invitationals.  No I would have absolutely NO interest in ever sending my team.  This is DUMB because it determines NOTHING.  We already wrestle in tough meets and duals that are "showcase" duals or whatever you want to call it.  I can't believe anyone is buying into this OR THE WAY THIS WAS PRESENTED!!!  Why are we members of the IHSWCA when VERY few of us had any input on such a big decision?  NO SURVEY...This idea was not even brought up at the Fall Clinic.  This is NOT okay...I don't what irritates me more - this dumb idea or the way it seems to be pushed through without being voted on by the membership.  NOT professional, productive...and certainly does not feel honest.

 

The IHSAA IS LAUGHING AT US

 

Snyder

 

Not Professional????  And your way of expressing yourself is?

[Smooth34]

Just come to the Bellmont Duals....you won't be disappointed. 

[Darrick Snyder]

Coach Peck,

 

I am one individual.  I represent one opinion, which I am entitled to...and can express freely on here.  The IHSWCA Board is supposed to represent the opinions and interests of coaches throughout the state.  I think its impossible that this was done regarding the fall classic thing - NEVER brought up at fall clinic and NO survey.  So yes this decision is unprofessional in every sense of the word. 

 

Snyder

[1oldwrestler]

 

it serves NO purpose....  This does NOTHING for the sport of wrestling.... absolutely dumb....  ridiculous.... Screw it - ...STUPID....  This is DUMB because it determines NOTHING....  this dumb idea

 

Snyder

 

Hey coach, you're really coming off as immature here.  Why don't you leave that to the professionals like myself? Your program will survive without a team state title to contend for.  I think your just going through the five stages of grief.  Right now you are combining the denial and anger stages.  Next comes bargaining which I've gotten a hint of from you already by you volunteering to be on committees.  Get ready for depression and then, hopefully, acceptance.  If you never accept the loss of team state you will be stuck in a state of depression for your whole life.  Don't let that happen.

[Darrick Snyder]

1oldwrestler,

 

I have accepted the IHSAA dropping Team State.  What I can not understand or accept is the purpose of the Fall Classic as a showcase dual.  Already have lots of those.  I also can not understand and accept that this decision was made without the input of coaches throughout the state. 

 

Snyder

[Coach Peck]

I think the answer is simple... Coach Snyder (you are probably the most vocal proponent of a "classed" State Dual Tournament) you should go to the next IHSWCA Meeting and offer to form and lead a committee to institute and run an all inclusive "class" Dual Meet Tournament.  If you want it then you should be willing to put your beliefs (and time/energy) on the line and take charge. I do not think this will happen because I fear you that you may be one of the throng who yells loudly yet is content to stay on the edges instead of throwing themselves in the heat of the true battle.  I think there are plenty of people willing/wanting to take part in a Dual Tournament, but few willing to do the  work of making it happen.

 

The amount of true furor over the IHSAA taking away the Dual Tournament was minimal at best.  If there would have been widespread support for the Dual Tournament (and someone to lead the fight) we would have at least put up a battle like we did for Wrestlebacks in the Sectional a few years ago.  Coach Snyder...you could have led that fight.  I remember that you and several other coaches were at the first IHSWCA meeting last year and you were very vocal about how "WE" needed to do something, but then I do not believe I ever saw you again.  Someone asked me if I planned to fight for the Dual State like I fought for wrestlebacks when the IHSAA was going to make it "one loss and done" in the Sectional and I told them that I wasn't going to do that because I did not have the time and energy to invest at that point in time.  I knew what it would take in terms of time, energy, and stepping on Administrators toes, and I counted the costs and felt someone else that was more passionate about the Dual event (maybe you) should take up the fight......but no one did.

 

If you truly feel a State Dual Tournament is as important as you say it is then nothing should be off the table, but would you cancel the "Al Smith" to have one....I don't think so, yet you want to disrupt other peoples events to have an event you feel is incredibly important (but just not as important as your event).  Would you disrupt the tradition of the Marion County Tournament to have it that week?  You are already okay with disrupting an event Bellmont has so the event you feel is incredibly important can be held.  How about the last week of the season.  All of those conference Tournaments...they certainly aren't as important as the "Al Smith"...are they?  I am not saying this to suggest that the "Al Smith" should be touched (I don't think it should), but what makes it more right to mess with any other event that is meaningful and traditional?

 

The IHSAA threw the IHSWCA the "bone" knowing that an all inclusive classed State Dual Tournament would not happen....they knew:

 

1.  The IHSWCA is disjointed for lots of reasons...most of which have nothing to do with a President or Vice-President.

 

2.  The availabilty of schools to host the lead up events to the Finals of the Dual State Tournament would be problematic during the available weeks of the season.

 

3.  A good number of school would not even be willing to take part since the only State Champion the IHSAA will recognize is the State Champion at the Individual Tournament in Conseco.

 

4.  The IHSAA knows the amount of time, money, and etc. that it takes to run the meager Dual tournament they were running and they know that Teacher/Coaches do not have that time.

 

 

 

I may have more later....at least I did manage to make it through the entire post without resorting to calling anyone, or their ideas, STUPID....DUMB...or any other degrading terms.

[tskin]

Coach Peck,

 

If I had of been invited to the other meetings I would of went.  I am a strong proponent of the class State Duals.  I went to the meeting that I knew was happening in Franklin over the summer.  This last meeting I was with family and didn't go because from my understanding the IHSWCA had already had the proposed invite only Team State Duals set up and was just working out the details of criteria for inviting teams.  And since they had their  "Team State Committee"  already selected according to the info we were giving at our last IHSWCA meeting at the Fall Clinic, I agree that alot of us in the wrestling community had no clue why we all of a sudden switched gears??

 

I did recieve a email from you a week or so ago in which you were stating the proposed Team State Duals would not work and that we should go to some type of "Hall of fame" meet like they do in basketball.  So I guess once you emailed this we decided to change our plan that had been given to everyone in the association.  I am far from being in the loop but I have to aggree that a event like this i would be less likely to attend than I would a team duals State.

 

I have also stated our program is far from being a top program at this time but our goal is to be just that.

 

 

[Darrick Snyder]

Coach Peck,

 

You seem to believe I am all talk.  Sounds like you think I complain and will not work for something.  I would say that's somewhat of an insult, but stuff like that rolls off my back so to speak.  

 

If you believe that I attended one meeting in Indy and spoke out in favor of Team State and then did nothing else, you are VERY incorrect.  I have been to Indy several times...I have communicated with Bobby Cox...wrote letters...set up the clinic for team state...heck I even lobbied politicians...met with my athletic department, principal and communicated with principals and AD's at many other schools.  I took my entire team to team state, etc. etc.

 

I think you are wrong about the type of person I am.  I am not a sit on the sidelines guy.  Never have been.  

 

As far as your suggestion that I lead the charge for the IHSWCA Team State, my answer is YES.

 

Main issue is that we would first need to find out what the coaches want.  As you pointed out, I am very vocally in favor of team state.  Am I the minority?  I don't know because we have not surveyed the membership on an IHSWCA Classed Team State vs. The Fall Classic.  

 

Would membership want a classed team state over the Fall Classic where the same teams can not attend even if they are the best teams?  I would think the answer is yes, but we will not know until we ask the question.  

 

Listen coach if the answer is our membership does not want the IHSWCA to host a classed team state, I will shut up and move on.  However, to not do it without asking is unacceptable.  

 

If coaches want it, YES I will lead the charge.  Will it be perfect? No?will we have make changes, will some people be upset?  Yes?But if we ask the coaches and they want it, how can we not give it to them.  At least ask the question.  Do not make an arbitrary decision.

 

I would love an all in tournament, but I understand that is probably unrealistic.  I like what was presented at the Fall Clinic. It was not perfect and I was trying to wrap my brain around it, but it is better than just dropping.  We are not saying a team has to go and adjust their schedule.  We are saying that a team would have the opportunity to if they chose to.  

 

Just ask the membership and do what the majority of coaches want.  Classed Team State vs. Fall Classic?If membership doesn?t want a classed team state, I have no leg to stand on.

 

Snyder

 

[Short Jay]

Coach Peck,

Before it gets mentioned I will state that I have never attended one of these meetings in Indy but do come to the clinics.  My question is this.  Do we have reps from all areas of the state?  Then, what are the responsibilities of these reps?  We do have men who have volunteered for positions like President, VP, Sec., and reps.  Wouldn't it be thier job to put together a Dual Team State since they have decided to take on those task?  Just trying to get answers. 

[Darrick Snyder]

Forgot to answer another question regarding the Al Smith Classic.  No I wouldn't cancel the Al Smith for a Classed Team State, but YES I would absolutely alter the date.  If there was a classed team state, the Al Smith Classic would not be the same date.  I would be willing to adjust the date of the Al Smith Classic so that teams, us included, could go to the Al Smith Classic and a Classed Team State.  Would that be a tough couple weeks?  Yes but we already go from the Al Smith Classic to Bellmont.  Teams would have to decide what is best for them, but yes I would adjust our tournament. 

 

Snyder

[Coach Peck]

I won't bother to say anymore after this post.  I just feel like a glorified invitational duals labeled as a "State Tournament" will do no more than a "Hall of Fame Classic" (not a fall classic) to build the sport. It might satisfy some egos, but it is not a "State Championship" anymore than the winner of the Bellmont Duals, or the Franklin Duals, or any other tournament can claim to be the best team in the State.  We could get to the point where it is like National Tournaments and there will be six or eight "State" Dual Championship events.

 

I do think the membership should be surveyed and ask whether they are for an Invitational (non all inclusive) Tournament to be used to determine the State Dual Champion.  I think a majority of coaches responding might be for it, but it would be interesting to see if there are enough coaches who even care about it to make it a valid survey.

 

 

[a_fleenor171]

Alright I'm going to attempt my idea of a proposal for a classed team state duals, here it goes..

 

There's approximately 320 schools participating in high school wrestling in Indiana.  Find the median enrollment of these schools, top 160 are 2A, bottom 160 are 1A.  Recalculate enrollment every 4 or 5 years and redivide classes accordingly.

 

Through a coach's poll, calculation, or however you want to do it, take top 5 teams from each semi-state for each class.(10 total teams from each semi-state, 5 1A schools and 5 2A schools.)  Divide each class into 4 pools of 5 teams each based on what semi-state they come from.  So you would have pool 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D for the 1A class, then pools 2A, 2B, 2C, and 2D for the 2A class.

 

Then take pool A from both 1A and 2A, so 10 teams.  Have 4 mats, 1A on 2 mats and 2A on 2 mats.  Wrestle out the pool matches on one Saturday over Christmas break.(10 dual matches per pool, so 5 duals on each mat should take around 8-9 hours. (This means the 10 teams from New Castle semi-state wrestle at a school from New Castle semi-state i.e. New Castle, Carmel, Warren Central all have gyms big enough)

 

Next take the 8 pool match winners and that would be your 1A and 2A state finals. Hold the 1A and 2A at the same location(i.e. Carmel, Center Grove, somewhere around central Indiana with a huge gym) on the following Saturday.  Have 2 mats and wrestle 1A and 2A semi-finals at same time.  Losers wrestle next at same time for 3rd and 4th place in respective class.  Go down to 1 mat wrestle 1A finals, then wrestle 2A finals.  It would be like having 4 dual meets which would take around 6-7 hours on a Saturday.

 

I know everything is about money so charge $8-$10 for semi-state.  At 10 teams, 14 kids per team, then average about 2 family members per kid per team equals 280 family members attending times $10 per head is $2,800, not counting additional family members, friends, and other wrestling supporters that would attend.

Charge $10 for team state for the semi-final and 3rd and 4th place matches.  Clear out gym while setting up for championship matches.  Charge $5 per person for finals.  $12-$13 for full day pass.  On average thats about 224 family members at $13 per head is $2912, not counting additional family, friends and other wrestling supporters.

Not to mention the money the concessions will make...

 

This way you have a 1A and 2A state champion. It only effects 32 schools for one Saturday and 8 schools for 2 Saturdays, but I don't foresee the 8 schools complaining about spending an extra Saturday during the season attempting to win a team state title.  Or the other 32 schools complaining about wrestling 4 dual meets against the other top 4 schools in their semi-state.

 

I'm sure there are some problems with my idea but it is just an idea to see if it would actually work..

[Fabio Jr.]

So...

 

I've been out the game a while....

 

What are we trying to accomplish here?

 

Find a replacement team tournament or showcase wrestling in Indiana?

 

I love Big D, and I Love Indiana HS wrestling but all this stuff is just people  spouting off opinions instead of discussing solutions or compromises...

 

I will be done with school in May and look forward to moving back to IN and hopefully getting involved in coaching.

 

So if we could just get a clarification or perhaps minutes of this IHSWCA meeting that went down maybe we can cut the crap and look for a solution.

[tspray1]

IHSWCA switch gears?  No way ! This happened about 10 years ago, when it was voted on by over 90% to go for class team duals.  After thinking on it and feeling that the IHSAA would not give into this they added the wrestlebacks as a part of their proposal.  Of course the IHSAA told them the IHSWCA that they don't even know what they want they scrapped the Classed Team part and forged on with the wrestlebacks.  Now I don't think ill toward those who decided it.  I do however think that the IHSAA thinks the IHSWCA has no backbone and will not fight very long for what the membership really wants.  I have heard it from a few principals and an AD that is on the board that the IHSWCA is wishy washy at best and changes their fight every other year.  Why not stay the course for what ya believe in?  Quit changing your stance and taking less than what ya really want. The IHSAA know they can take whatever they want away from the wrestling community because the Membership will accept it and settle for less.

 

 

Just my two cents.

 

 

Tim Spray

[Coach McCormick]

I would like to weigh in on this dialogue for what it is worth.  I don't know that there is anything I can say that will satisfy all interested parties, but I will try to bring some clarity (at least from my perspective).

 

1.  It should be noted that the IHSWCA is not the responsible party for hosting championship winter events in our state.  There is an agency called the IHSAA that holds the reigns to this job.  The IHSWCA is made up of a small group of volunteers who try to do their best to offer programs and services to kids and coaches in our state.  Personally, I would like to thank the gentlemen who give of their valuable time in carrying out the positive experiences that the association does offer to our members and wrestlers in our state.

 

2.  As the name indicates, the IHSWCA is an organization that is supposed to assist coaches/programs --- not lay extra burden on coaches/programs.  I, too, was pretty excited about the Team State Duals format we had designed for the 2012-13 season.  But after further thought and careful discussion with other coaches, it became apparent to me that we were going to put many programs in a bad scheduling dilemma.  I, and others, just don't feel that this was fair to ask of coaches/teams.

 

3.  Not every wrestling event has to determine the "champion of the world".  By nature, wrestling coaches are very competitive individuals, so we do enjoy pitting the best against the best to see the outcome.  I do think there is merit though, at times, in hosting events that celebrate our sport by putting an emphasis on participation rather than domination.  

 

4.  I will point out again that the IHSWCA will keep the Team State Duals (classed) concept in mind.  Just please be patient as we work through some very difficult decisions that impact programs around the entire state.  Who knows... maybe soon you will see a Hall of Fame Classic transition into a Classed Team State Duals in a few years.

 

Coach McCormick

[infowrestling]

Along the lines of what is being said here, the IHSWCA isn't going to become a viable, strong  entity, with backbone, in 3 months.  It will take time, consistency, and staying the course for the IHSAA to view the IHSWCA as a legitimate organization.  Therefore we need to make improvements such as posting the minutes from the IHSWCA meetings on this public forum (as Fabio Jr. asked for), and by being firm and consistent in our attempts to improve our sport.  Like what has been stated before, let's be firm and consistent in what we are working for.  If we want a classed Team State, or wrestle-backs at Semi-State,  let's shove it down their throats year after year, improving our proposal year in and year out until we get it.  If the IHSAA tells us no way, let's keep pushing.  I know that we tell our wrestlers to keep pushing even when the outlook appears bleak.  We should only expect the same from ourselves.  Communication from the IHSWCA to the coach's needs to improve for the organization to improve.

[Smooth34]

Alright I'm going to attempt my idea of a proposal for a classed team state duals, here it goes..

 

There's approximately 320 schools participating in high school wrestling in Indiana.  Find the median enrollment of these schools, top 160 are 2A, bottom 160 are 1A.  Recalculate enrollment every 4 or 5 years and redivide classes accordingly.

 

Through a coach's poll, calculation, or however you want to do it, take top 5 teams from each semi-state for each class.(10 total teams from each semi-state, 5 1A schools and 5 2A schools.)  Divide each class into 4 pools of 5 teams each based on what semi-state they come from.  So you would have pool 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D for the 1A class, then pools 2A, 2B, 2C, and 2D for the 2A class.

 

Then take pool A from both 1A and 2A, so 10 teams.  Have 4 mats, 1A on 2 mats and 2A on 2 mats.  Wrestle out the pool matches on one Saturday over Christmas break.(10 dual matches per pool, so 5 duals on each mat should take around 8-9 hours. (This means the 10 teams from New Castle semi-state wrestle at a school from New Castle semi-state i.e. New Castle, Carmel, Warren Central all have gyms big enough)

 

Next take the 8 pool match winners and that would be your 1A and 2A state finals. Hold the 1A and 2A at the same location(i.e. Carmel, Center Grove, somewhere around central Indiana with a huge gym) on the following Saturday.  Have 2 mats and wrestle 1A and 2A semi-finals at same time.  Losers wrestle next at same time for 3rd and 4th place in respective class.  Go down to 1 mat wrestle 1A finals, then wrestle 2A finals.  It would be like having 4 dual meets which would take around 6-7 hours on a Saturday.

 

I know everything is about money so charge $8-$10 for semi-state.  At 10 teams, 14 kids per team, then average about 2 family members per kid per team equals 280 family members attending times $10 per head is $2,800, not counting additional family members, friends, and other wrestling supporters that would attend.

Charge $10 for team state for the semi-final and 3rd and 4th place matches.  Clear out gym while setting up for championship matches.  Charge $5 per person for finals.  $12-$13 for full day pass.  On average thats about 224 family members at $13 per head is $2912, not counting additional family, friends and other wrestling supporters.

Not to mention the money the concessions will make...

 

This way you have a 1A and 2A state champion. It only effects 32 schools for one Saturday and 8 schools for 2 Saturdays, but I don't foresee the 8 schools complaining about spending an extra Saturday during the season attempting to win a team state title.  Or the other 32 schools complaining about wrestling 4 dual meets against the other top 4 schools in their semi-state.

 

I'm sure there are some problems with my idea but it is just an idea to see if it would actually work..

 

So Christmas Eve and New Years Eve if your proposal went into affect in a year like this one?

[Darrick Snyder]

Coach McCormick,

 

So this decision is being made without finding out what a majority of coaches want?

 

Snyder

[Coach McCormick]

I just e-mailed Joe the IHSWCA minutes from Sunday.

 

In addition to the Team Duals discussion that took place Sunday, much of our discussion at the meeting revolved around how to increase membership.  The question that was posed was, "what do members expect to get for their money/dues?"

 

One product that will be coming out in December will be our first IHSWCA e-newsletter.  Thank you to Coach Riesen (Churubusco) for volunteering to head that project up.  

 

It was noted that we do have an awful lot of lay coaches in our ranks, and sometimes, they just don't get the information or don't have the resources to join the association.  Our regional reps were charged Sunday with contacting every school in their regional in increasing membership.

 

If there is/are other services and or products that you have in mind, please e-mail one of the officers and let us know what your idea is.  We are searching for things that truly benefit our membership in a meaningful way.

 

Coach McCormick

[tskin]

The Newsletter is a great idea.  

 

I think we need to put together a simple spreadsheet of every high school coach in the state with his contact info

 

Then have a sectional rep in charge of keeping this info up to date and reporting it back to the reg rep, then reg rep to main person in charge of this data.

[KarlHungus]

 

1.  It should be noted that the IHSWCA is not the responsible party for hosting championship winter events in our state.  There is an agency called the IHSAA that holds the reigns to this job.

 

A. The IHSAA gave the IHSWCA the go ahead to organized and host a championship event because they would not.  To say that it is not the IHSWCA's job seems like an attempt to pass the blame for no team state event back on the IHSAA.  It is disappointing that the IHSWCA has decided that a team state dual event is unworkable at this time.

 

 The IHSWCA is made up of a small group of volunteers who try to do their best to offer programs and services to kids and coaches in our state.

 

This is the mindset which leads to decisions like not undertaking a team state dual event.  The IHSWCA see themselves as a  small group of individuals that seem to make decisions without communicating with their membership instead of viable multi layered group.  The perception that the IHSWCA is  a "Good Ol' Boys Club" is pretty much confirmed in the above quote.  A strong viable statewide organization would have no problem finding volunteer schools, coaches, administrators, and other individuals to help develop this event.

 

Personally, I would like to thank the gentlemen who give of their valuable time in carrying out the positive experiences that the association does offer to our members and wrestlers in our state.

 

Coach McCormick

 

The IHSWCA has offered many events that are positive for HS wrestling and for this they deserve thanks.  Many think a coach's association should and could do more.