IHSWCA Survey Results

[phscoach]

I voted in the IHSWCA poll and received the email from Bobby Cox.  I have not received the IHSAA survey.  I replied looking for a link and also invited him to check in with you and get a copy of your results.  I am glad you posted results on here to make a public record of what we voted.  I wonder if the IHSAA will do the same.

[charger.dad]

looks to me like the masses have spoken......team state should be a dual tournament series and should be classed......individual champions should not be classed.....i totally agree.....our individual tournament is awesome just as it is.......but by classing the team state, we will draw more fans and support, in my opinion......

[mtv2112]

Maybe the best athletes in PA and OH wrestle, but in California they don't.  California, Texas, and Florida are the best football states, but not wrestling.  Maybe those athletes just aren't interested in wrestling as they are in more midwestern states, where wrestling tends to be more popular. 

 

I think that's part of the problem in Indiana.  We have very good athletes who are willing to sit on the bench in basketball, rather than put in the time and be pretty decent in wrestling.  Other sports are just easier.  I think there is a different mindset in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Iowa. 

 

I don't know whether your argument is valid or not but there should be evidence to support it somewhere.  If Indiana and California put out more DI basketball players, per capita, than Penn, Iowa, or Ohio then your argument could be a good one.

[KarlHungus]

Maybe the best athletes in PA and OH wrestle, but in California they don't.  California, Texas, and Florida are the best football states, but not wrestling.  Maybe those athletes just aren't interested in wrestling as they are in more midwestern states, where wrestling tends to be more popular. 

 

I think that's part of the problem in Indiana.  We have very good athletes who are willing to sit on the bench in basketball, rather than put in the time and be pretty decent in wrestling.  Other sports are just easier.  I think there is a different mindset in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Iowa. 

 

Are you saying there are more mentally tough kids in ohio than indiana.  That hurts my hoosier pride

[gstemv81]

Ohio, Pennsylvania and Iowa have been powerhouse states for decades - before and after class wrestling.  It's the culture.  I have to believe classing has nothing to do with it.

 

Ohio does more of what we should be doing to popularize our sport, like their incredible sportwriters and ohiowrestling.net.  Y2's IndianaMat has been a big step in the right direction.

 

This hasn't been mentioned yet but the 3-class breakdown by enrollment will have MD in the small school class (under 560).  Are small schools really competitive here?  I don't want to see any 70-3 dual scores at Team State.  Any class "state title" won by MD would be virtually worthless.  And I can predict that Yorktown and Bellmont will be the finals of the mid-size class every year, and along with MD, would have no opportunity to take on the rest of Indiana's biggest and best.

 

St. Eds and Graham never meet in Ohio postseason, and it's a never ending source of frustration for Ohio fans.

[chambers]

Ohio, Pennsylvania and Iowa have been powerhouse states for decades - before and after class wrestling.  It's the culture.  I have to believe classing has nothing to do with it.

 

Ohio does more of what we should be doing to popularize our sport, like their incredible sportwriters and ohiowrestling.net.  Y2's IndianaMat has been a big step in the right direction.

 

This hasn't been mentioned yet but the 3-class breakdown by enrollment will have MD in the small school class (under 560).  Are small schools really competitive here?  I don't want to see any 70-3 dual scores at Team State.  Any class "state title" won by MD would be virtually worthless.  And I can predict that Yorktown and Bellmont will be the finals of the mid-size class every year, and along with MD, would have no opportunity to take on the rest of Indiana's biggest and best.

 

St. Eds and Graham never meet in Ohio postseason, and it's a never ending source of frustration for Ohio fans.

 

Mater Dei or any other school can move up to 2A or 3A if they are in a lower class.

[Y2CJ41]

Ohio, Pennsylvania and Iowa have been powerhouse states for decades - before and after class wrestling.  It's the culture.  I have to believe classing has nothing to do with it.

 

Ohio does more of what we should be doing to popularize our sport, like their incredible sportwriters and ohiowrestling.net.  Y2's IndianaMat has been a big step in the right direction.

 

This hasn't been mentioned yet but the 3-class breakdown by enrollment will have MD in the small school class (under 560).  Are small schools really competitive here?  I don't want to see any 70-3 dual scores at Team State.  Any class "state title" won by MD would be virtually worthless.  And I can predict that Yorktown and Bellmont will be the finals of the mid-size class every year, and along with MD, would have no opportunity to take on the rest of Indiana's biggest and best.

 

St. Eds and Graham never meet in Ohio postseason, and it's a never ending source of frustration for Ohio fans.

Mater Dei would be in the 1A class in a three class system by less than 10 students, on top of that they can voluntarily move up a class if they want to. 

 

Also Ohio fans are not frustrated with not seeing St. Eds and Graham in the same state series as they see each other during the season at the Ironman and in a dual.  It is pretty hard for fans to get frustrated and upset when the top teams see eachother twice.

[tskin]

I voted in the IHSWCA poll and received the email from Bobby Cox.  I have not received the IHSAA survey.  I replied looking for a link and also invited him to check in with you and get a copy of your results.  I am glad you posted results on here to make a public record of what we voted.  I wonder if the IHSAA will do the same.

 

This is the exact reason we posted our results.  I want to make sure everyone knows how our coaches voted before the IHSAA tells us their results to see what the difference is.

[edb41]

Mater Dei would be in the 1A class in a three class system by less than 10 students, on top of that they can voluntarily move up a class if they want to.   

 

Also Ohio fans are not frustrated with not seeing St. Eds and Graham in the same state series as they see each other during the season at the Ironman and in a dual.  It is pretty hard for fans to get frustrated and upset when the top teams see eachother twice.

 

And if MD doesn't choose to move up then the 1A schools can start clammering for a multiplier or other handicap for the non-public schools which will give us another year-round topic for the board..........or this board could just merge with gridirondigest at that point. 

[Boot]

Ohio, Pennsylvania and Iowa have been powerhouse states for decades - before and after class wrestling.  It's the culture.  I have to believe classing has nothing to do with it.

 

Ohio does more of what we should be doing to popularize our sport, like their incredible sportwriters and ohiowrestling.net.  Y2's IndianaMat has been a big step in the right direction.

 

This hasn't been mentioned yet but the 3-class breakdown by enrollment will have MD in the small school class (under 560).  Are small schools really competitive here?  I don't want to see any 70-3 dual scores at Team State.  Any class "state title" won by MD would be virtually worthless.  And I can predict that Yorktown and Bellmont will be the finals of the mid-size class every year, and along with MD, would have no opportunity to take on the rest of Indiana's biggest and best.

 

St. Eds and Graham never meet in Ohio postseason, and it's a never ending source of frustration for Ohio fans.

 

I spend a lot of time in Ohio, I'm in Toledo as I type this, and I've never heard that complaint. And Yorktown and Bellmont are close enough they would face each other and one would eliminate the other most likely. And MD every year? Take a look at last year's results. That area is catching up fast. I grew up thinking MD was an unstoppable force, but that's been shown to be false, and I hope the duals continue to be close and produce several different teams going to state from that area.

[Y2CJ41]

And if MD doesn't choose to move up then the 1A schools can start clammering for a multiplier or other handicap for the non-public schools which will give us another year-round topic for the board..........or this board could just merge with gridirondigest at that point.  

Once you go to a classed system the muliplier chants will start, just like in every other sport that has p/p domination.  Mater Dei could become the LCC of 1A wrestling.

[GrecoCoach]

Mater Dei would be in the 1A class in a three class system by less than 10 students, on top of that they can voluntarily move up a class if they want to. 

 

Name one football or basketball powerhouse who has voluntarily moved up a class.  It doesn't happen.  That's why there are topics on the football discussion board about making it mandatory after 2 consecutive state championships.  However, it is being disputed because it punishes the younger players who might not be as talented as those who have graduated.

 

Everyone needs to imagine themselves as a coach at a small school powerhouse.  You have a choice:  stay in your class and be very confident that you'll win state or move up a class and maybe win state.  The choice is pretty easy, especially when ADs expect success.

 

I still think classing team state is the right thing to do, though.

[tskin]

Actually EMD is a class AA school based on our current 3 class breakdown that Indianamat has been using all year.

[Y2CJ41]

With the new enrollment figures they would be 1A by about 10 students.  They lost 40 students from 2009 until 2011.  They were 3A in football in 2009 and are now in the middle of the back in terms of 2A schools in Indiana.

[tskin]

Really than you are correct they will dominate 1A. 

 

 

[MD92]

I spend a lot of time in Ohio, I'm in Toledo as I type this, and I've never heard that complaint. And Yorktown and Bellmont are close enough they would face each other and one would eliminate the other most likely. And MD every year? Take a look at last year's results. That area is catching up fast. I grew up thinking MD was an unstoppable force, but that's been shown to be false, and I hope the duals continue to be close and produce several different teams going to state from that area.

MD has lost to Reitz and Castle the last couple of years.  Those aren't small schools.  In a class dual tournament, MD would be in the finals every year.  No small school in the south would be within 50 points of them in a dual.  Small schools from the north would be lucky to keep it that close as well.

[Y2CJ41]

MD has lost to Reitz and Castle the last couple of years.  Those aren't small schools.  In a class dual tournament, MD would be in the finals every year.  No small school in the south would be within 50 points of them in a dual.  Small schools from the north would be lucky to keep it that close as well.

Already planting the seed as the LCC of 1A wrestling, I love it!

[MD92]

Already planting the seed as the LCC of 1A wrestling, I love it!

did I say something incorrect?  If the dual tournament goes to 3 classes and MD is in 1A, nobody will be within 50 points of them.

 

I believe that the only indiana schools to beat MD in a dual in the last 30 years are:  LN, Portage, Mishawaka, Castle, Reitz and Delta.

 

What 1A school will be able to knock them off? 

[Y2CJ41]

You didn't say anything wrong at all.  The LCC thing is a joke where many people are not fans of theirs based on their fans on the football board.  They always rant and rave at how great they are and like to pat themselves on the back.  Their fans love to predict they will win games by 50 or more and always chastise others for not agreeing with them.

 

Mater Dei fans are in no way like them.

[chambers]

Name one football or basketball powerhouse who has voluntarily moved up a class.  It doesn't happen.  That's why there are topics on the football discussion board about making it mandatory after 2 consecutive state championships.  However, it is being disputed because it punishes the younger players who might not be as talented as those who have graduated.

 

Everyone needs to imagine themselves as a coach at a small school powerhouse.  You have a choice:  stay in your class and be very confident that you'll win state or move up a class and maybe win state.  The choice is pretty easy, especially when ADs expect success.

 

I still think classing team state is the right thing to do, though.

 

Indianapolis Cardinal Ritter moved up in football. They were a powerhouse in 1A football at that time.

[MCKAJC]

I've spoke to some of the Illinois people about this subject. In their three class system(which none of the folks I spoke to care for) I'm told, that the 1A division is very weak while 2A and 3A are comparable but 3A has considerably more depth. They have all mentioned a single wrestler by name(I'll leave his name out)that will "tell the tale" of the 1A division. This is a wrestler who has for years been at or near the top of the heap nationally. Will he stay there over the next 3 years wrestling in a much weaker division than the other 2? This is from an individual not team standpoint.

 

My opinion, class team not individual state.

[Y2CJ41]

I've spoke to some of the Illinois people about this subject. In their three class system(which none of the folks I spoke to care for) I'm told, that the 1A division is very weak while 2A and 3A are comparable but 3A has considerably more depth. They have all mentioned a single wrestler by name(I'll leave his name out)that will "tell the tale" of the 1A division. This is a wrestler who has for years been at or near the top of the heap nationally. Will he stay there over the next 3 years wrestling in a much weaker division than the other 2? This is from an individual not team standpoint.

 

My opinion, class team not individual state.

What prevents the said wrestler from going to Fargo, the Super 32, FloNationals, etc during the offseason?  Also what is even preventing him from competing in some of Illinois' better in season tournaments like the Dvorak(sp)?  Heck his coach can even probably give Bob Preusse a call and get him in the Ironman if he wants. 

 

Andrew Howe could "tell the tale" of Indiana wrestling when he barely broke a sweat his last two years of high school.  Wrestling in weak Indiana didn't prepare him for the battles of NCAA competition, it was the offseason training and tournaments that did that.  It wouldn't have mattered if Indiana had one class or 10, he was going to dominate EVERYONE in his weight.  You could also insert the names of Angel Escobedo and Alex Tsirtsis into that mix as they were rarely tested in the state during their four years.   

 

 

[MCKAJC]

What prevents the said wrestler from going to Fargo, the Super 32, FloNationals, etc during the offseason?  Also what is even preventing him from competing in some of Illinois' better in season tournaments like the Dvorak(sp)?  Heck his coach can even probably give Bob Preusse a call and get him in the Ironman if he wants. 

 

Andrew Howe could "tell the tale" of Indiana wrestling when he barely broke a sweat his last two years of high school.  Wrestling in weak Indiana didn't prepare him for the battles of NCAA competition, it was the offseason training and tournaments that did that.  It wouldn't have mattered if Indiana had one class or 10, he was going to dominate EVERYONE in his weight.  You could also insert the names of Angel Escobedo and Alex Tsirtsis into that mix as they were rarely tested in the state during their four years.   

 

 

My point is we will find out, should this wrestler continue as he has in the past to attend national events, if he stays at or near the top. I don't believe that Indiana was as "weak" as all that. They were just that good. I've asked one of the three you mentioned his opinion on this. He believes it's hurt Illinois and also says class team not individual. Not sure, but I'd bet the other two would agree. I don't understand how anyone could think that classing individual wouldn't water down the level of competition.

[Y2CJ41]

My point is we will find out, should this wrestler continue as he has in the past to attend national events, if he stays at or near the top. I don't believe that Indiana was as "weak" as all that. They were just that good. I've asked one of the three you mentioned his opinion on this. He believes it's hurt Illinois and also says class team not individual. Not sure, but I'd bet the other two would agree. I don't understand how anyone could think that classing individual wouldn't water down the level of competition.

Won't classing the team water down the competition too?  Why would you be so much in favor of watering down the team portion and not individual portion?

 

No one has said it wouldn't water down the state tournament, but it wouldn't hurt the in-season matches one bit.  In the end our state could grow wrestling at the small school level and give more kids an opportunity for success(both big and small schools).  With more kids having success, especially at the small school level, you could see an increase in the level of wrestling because those kids would be pursing more camps, clubs, etc in the offseason and going on to wrestle in college.  With more kids going to wrestle in college you would see more coming back to the state to give back to the sport as coaches, refs, fans, etc.  To me, I would sacrifice that for growing the sport and helping small schools grow the sport.  

 

The cream of the crop wrestlers will not be affected by classing wrestling in any way shape or form.  They are the best of the best for a reason and it is NOT because we have a one class system.  If our one class system was the reason for guys like Leroy Vega, Andrew Howe, Angel Escobedo were/are good, we would have a lot better showing at the NCAAs in all divisions than we currently do.  

 

While Indiana does not currently come close to the depth of our surrounding states, we have enough that would make for numerous great matchups if we had two classes.  Here are some examples from this year:

103- Micic vs. Hamm

112- Petrov vs. Phillips

119- ??? vs. Roe

125- Crume vs. Griessmer

130- Barroquillo vs. Crume

135- Raley vs. Moore

140- Lannert vs. Pyke

152- Johnson vs. Yoder

160- Sims vs. Judkins

171- Manning vs. Lynde

189- Boots vs. Stevenson

215- Reese vs. Grubb

285- Harvey vs. Forrest

 

[timbo]

There are more than twice as many high schools in Ohio than in Indiana.  I would go with two classes for team state vs 3.

 

I hear Ohio will be introducing a new team state format next year where all teams are in it---not sure how they are doing it though.

 

if you used two classes for Individual as well you could have a dual meet with each divisions state champs