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Can the Pirates dethrone the Dogs ?

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Coach77, these numbers you give only strengthen my argument.  As a huge 5A school, you'd expect CP to get their 1 to 2 state qualifiers a year, which they did until 2007.  This is where you see the huge boom!  Did Vlink become a better coach all of a sudden and go from producing 1 to 2 state qualifiers a year which anybody who knows anything about wrestling at a huge school can do to producing state champs, a state championship team, and 5+ placers a year?  I'm thinking not.  I'm attributing this to the move-ins and the success of Bill Hawkins' Crown Point Lightning program.  I'd love to hear how much new found wrestling knowledge that Scott Vlink passed on to Jason Tsirtsis, Eric Roach, Marcus Shrewsbury, Anthony Hawkins, etc. in the past 4 years that took Crown Point from a very average 5A team that hadn't ever won a Duneland title until 4 years ago, hadn't won a Regional title in 18 years, and hadn't produced an individual State Champion until 2 years ago.  Where did Vlink drastically improve his coaching skills in the last 4 years? I'd love to know.

 

 

Whatever dude. You obviously have a bone to pick for some reason. Everyone knows crown point has had a good wrestling program for a long time. Also, you're giving bill hawkins way too much credit. Known him for a real long time and truly love the guy, so I hesitate to say that because I don't want it to sound like I'm taking anythikng away from him. He's great, but everone who knows what they're talking about knows its a total program with the head coach at the top.

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Whatever dude. You obviously have a bone to pick for some reason. Everyone knows crown point has had a good wrestling program for a long time. Also, you're giving bill hawkins way too much credit. Known him for a real long time and truly love the guy, so I hesitate to say that because I don't want it to sound like I'm taking anythikng away from him. He's great, but everone who knows what they're talking about knows its a total program with the head coach at the top.

 

Don't really want to get into this whole discussion, but Bill Hawkins is NOT getting way too much credit.  If anything, he normally does not get enough credit for his role in CPs rise to the top of the heap.  He is a GREAT coach and had a huge hand in getting CP's program where it is today.  There is no substitute for getting a group of freshmen in the room all who have 300+ quality matches under their belts and solid fundamentals due to great youth coaching.  This is what Bill Hawkins was turning out while he was running the CP Lightning youth wrestling program.  Bill was the one putting in the time at all of the practices he ran along with all of the IKWF tournaments he had these kids go to.  Did he do it alone?  Certainly not..... but he did ALOT!  Turns out that sometimes hard work really does pay off.   

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Whatever dude. You obviously have a bone to pick for some reason. Everyone knows crown point has had a good wrestling program for a long time. Also, you're giving bill hawkins way too much credit. Known him for a real long time and truly love the guy, so I hesitate to say that because I don't want it to sound like I'm taking anythikng away from him. He's great, but everone who knows what they're talking about knows its a total program with the head coach at the top.

 

So are you saying the boost in state champions, placers, qualifiers, etc. is attributed to Vlink's coaching? I don't want to put words in your mouth but you didn't answer Rankings Guy's question when he asked why CP's accolades have gone through the roof since Tsirtsis and Roach moved there a few years ago.

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Don't really want to get into this whole discussion, but Bill Hawkins is NOT getting way too much credit.  If anything, he normally does not get enough credit for his role in CPs rise to the top of the heap.  He is a GREAT coach and had a huge hand in getting CP's program where it is today.  There is no substitute for getting a group of freshmen in the room all who have 300+ quality matches under their belts and solid fundamentals due to great youth coaching.  This is what Bill Hawkins was turning out while he was running the CP Lightning youth wrestling program.  Bill was the one putting in the time at all of the practices he ran along with all of the IKWF tournaments he had these kids go to.  Did he do it alone?  Certainly not..... but he did ALOT!  Turns out that sometimes hard work really does pay off.   

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This is why I hardly ever post here. People misconstrue what you say. I didn't say anything negative about anyone, except for maybe that one guy saying cps program is bad. I'm done now though because I don't want to get into this. I just wanted to defend crown point from that one guy.

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Big difference when you are a good team compared to a great team that is destroying all the competition or nearly all the competition. Good teams win and lose, but rarely win team state. At best average, there are a lot of good programs out there, that don't even come close right now. Hard to keep up. The writing is on the wall. Take it for what it is. The wrestling community as a whole all see it.

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Merrillville has had their fair share of move-ins as well over the past few years if I am not mistaken.  Napules, Garza, Salas brothers, Oria, Lawrence and a few others I may be forgetting, all were residents outside of Merrillville before hopping on board there...I am by no means calling them out on this but just trying to point out move ins have happened at each of these schools benefiting their wrestling lineups...

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Merrillville has had their fair share of move-ins as well over the past few years if I am not mistaken.  Napules, Garza, Salas brothers, Oria, Lawrence and a few others I may be forgetting, all were residents outside of Merrillville before hopping on board there...I am by no means calling them out on this but just trying to point out move ins have happened at each of these schools benefiting their wrestling lineups...

May i say anyone who mentions individual names as you just did, and then say your not calling anyone out. It called an oxy moron.  Your point is: CALLING OUT PEOPLE

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i believe that the score was 42-11 at the 189 match.  with the dual well over the question here is, WHY WOULD MALDONADO BUMP BERRY UP?  a meaningless match,  2 top wrestlers, potential for both to go down state this year, WHY RISK INJURY?  yet kral still wrestled nickson WHO IS IN HIS WEIGHT CLASS, and has the potential of seeing again 3 more times in the post season.

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The score at the time was 42-14. Berry received a forfeit to make it 20. Berry bumped up to wrestle the better competition and avenge a loss that he had last season. Was that a serious question? I think anyone on here could give you multiple answers why he bumped. If your a wrestler and are afraid of getting hurt you might want to  find a basketball and take up a new sport

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I guess since your Mr RankingsGuy and Kral who's 20 - 0 and only majored the #9  215 lber you'll probably knock him down to #7 in the state .

wow your going to dog a guys rankings that he does for free, and I think just about everyone else will agree with me, that he does a really good job. You might not agree with some of his post but hes volunteering his time to do the STATE rankings for you me and the whole state. What are you doing for the sport, or Indiana wrestling?

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May i say anyone who mentions individual names as you just did, and then say your not calling anyone out. It called an oxy moron.  Your point is: CALLING OUT PEOPLE

 

I didn't mean to call anyone out on it as the term "calling out" usually has a negative connotation, but i'm just referencing a few examples. By no means am I condeming for this I'm just saying move-ins happen everywhere, CP isn't the only place,  and as long as it is for the right purposes and is done legally than do what is best for you

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With all the move-ins happening in the sport teams need to start having better selling points to convince wrestlers to come to their school  ;D

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Crown Point Records:

 

Semi-State Champs ? 1988

Regional Champs ? 1988, 89, 1992, and 2006, 08, 09, 10

Sectional Champs ? 1970, 74, 77, 80, 86, 87, 88, 89, 91, 92, 98, 2001, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10

Lake Suburban Conference Champs ? 1986, 87, 88, 89, 1991, 92, 93

Duneland Athletic Conference Champs ? 2007, 08, 09, 10

 

INDIVIDUAL STATE QUALIFIERS (post 1980)

1983 ? Kenny Miller

1984 ? Kenny Miller, Jeff Stokes, Gary Weilbaker

1985 ? Dean Black

1986 ? Jarret Bothwell, Myron Swope, Jim Bogash (2nd), Dan Degani

1987 ? Evan Rees, Jarret Bothwell, Steve Smith (5th), Troy Hepp(5th)

1988 ? Evan Rees, Jeff Greco, Troy Hepp (3rd), Doug Willems (5th), Andy Coburn, Charlie Smith (2nd)

1989 ? Bill Hawkins, Brian Nelson (6th)

1990 ? Bill Hawkins (2nd), Brian Malone (5th)

1991 ? Eric Bothwell (4th), Brian Malone (3rd), Andy Tucker

1992 ? Jason LaPorta, Eric Bothwell (5th), Paul Nierman, Kyle Loudermilk

1994 ? Tom Stanojevic (5th)

1995 ? Chris Catalano

1996 ? Chris Catalano (8th)

1998 ? Mark Kaiser, Kevin Wilkinson

1999 ? Kevin Wilkinson

2000 ? Kevin Wilkinson, Ryan Wilkinson (3rd). Wayne Postelthwait

2001 ? Brian Mellis, Kevin Wilkinson (8th), Ryan Wilkinson, Tony Schoeffel

2003 ? Mark Vlink (4th)

2004 ? Brett Mellis, Cory Bush (4th)

2005 ? Brett Mellis, (7th)

2006 ? Brett Mellis, Tony Conway

2007 ? Anthony Hawkins, Tony Conway, Andrew Szymborski (5th), Marcus Shrewsbury (7th)

2008 - Anthony Hawkins (4th), Dallas Schurg, Anthony Fennel, Eric Roach (2nd), Tony Conway (4th), Mark Myers (5th), Marcus Shrewsbury (2nd)

2009 ? Cameron Halsted (7th), Anthony Hawkins (1st), Jason Tsirtsis (1st), Eric Roach (4th), Mark Myers (3rd), Marcus Shrewsbury (1st), Jimmy Bakalik

2010- Anthony Hawkins (5th), Jason Tsirtsis (1st), Josh Flamme, Eric Roach (1st)

 

State Finalists- 71

State Place Winners- 35

State Champions- 5

 

 

These are impressive numbers especially post 2007. Is there a website to get other schools or were these from the cp website?

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Coach77, these numbers you give only strengthen my argument.  As a huge 5A school, you'd expect CP to get their 1 to 2 state qualifiers a year, which they did until 2007.  This is where you see the huge boom!  Did Vlink become a better coach all of a sudden and go from producing 1 to 2 state qualifiers a year which anybody who knows anything about wrestling at a huge school can do to producing state champs, a state championship team, and 5+ placers a year?  I'm thinking not.  I'm attributing this to the move-ins and the success of Bill Hawkins' Crown Point Lightning program.  I'd love to hear how much new found wrestling knowledge that Scott Vlink passed on to Jason Tsirtsis, Eric Roach, Marcus Shrewsbury, Anthony Hawkins, etc. in the past 4 years that took Crown Point from a very average 5A team that hadn't ever won a Duneland title until 4 years ago, hadn't won a Regional title in 14 years, and hadn't produced an individual State Champion until 2 years ago.  Where did Vlink drastically improve his coaching skills in the last 4 years? I'd love to know.

 

Actually in 2007 you started to see some of the great Taft teams (Crown Points Middle School) were at the High School level and that is why they really started to to come on strong.  Yes, I will admit in the late 90s CP was down in terms of a program, but as you can see from the list I posted they were still winning some sectionals as a team and still sending kids to state.  So, with that said we have all seen teams go through up and down cycles and Crown Point is no different as it relates to that and the other thing that we really need to look at is when did the DAC really start to become somewhat of a state power in wrestling.  Well from what I recall it was not until Portage started their run in the mid-90s and you started to see all of these wrestling schools pop up as well as the organization of the club teams and feeder programs and then they started to see major results.  I have watched this shift from my days of wrestling in the dungeon at the old CPHS to what it is now.  Times change teams adapt and that is what CP has done and I will acknowledge that these move-ins did help, but to say that they could not have done some of these things without these move-ins is crazy.  Oh and one other thing Anthony Hawkens and Marcus Shrewsberry are products of the Crown Point system they did not move in so 2 of the 4 state champions are a direct product of Crown Point Wrestling.

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These are impressive numbers especially post 2007. Is there a website to get other schools or were these from the cp website?

 

Got it from CP's website.

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i believe that the score was 42-11 at the 189 match.  with the dual well over the question here is, WHY WOULD MALDONADO BUMP BERRY UP?  a meaningless match,  2 top wrestlers, potential for both to go down state this year, WHY RISK INJURY?  yet kral still wrestled nickson WHO IS IN HIS WEIGHT CLASS, and has the potential of seeing again 3 more times in the post season.

If there is risk for injury don't send the kid out there to wrestle at heavyweight either where he could be wrestling someone up to 70lbs heavier.

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Actually in 2007 you started to see some of the great Taft teams (Crown Points Middle School) were at the High School level and that is why they really started to to come on strong.  Yes, I will admit in the late 90s CP was down in terms of a program, but as you can see from the list I posted they were still winning some sectionals as a team and still sending kids to state. 

Things that a 5A school should be doing on a regular basis.  In the 90's and early 2000's, CP was a run of the mill 5A program.  They were nothing special until they got a few national studs to come to their school.

 

 

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No one said that the move-ins were the only reason CP is doing good, but they wouldn't be the same without them. Their move-ins are all ranked top 5. That's a 24 point swing in most duels. I'm sure wrestling wasnt the only reason these kids went to CP, I'm sure CP academics played a roll in it as well. 2 of the 4 statechamps are home grown CP kids, but the other 2 were move ins. That means half of their champs were move ins.  On the other had 3 of their 5 (probably going to be 6 out of 8) 1st place medals are move-ins.

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You guys are right Crown Point would have been nothing with out these lucky move-ins and they should just be ready to be an average run of the mill program once these kids are gone.

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With all the move-ins happening in the sport teams need to start having better selling points to convince wrestlers to come to their school  ;D

 

With two wrestlers on the cover of the ESPN high school magazine this year...I think the edge goes to CP..hee hee :)

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wow your going to dog a guys rankings that he does for free, and I think just about everyone else will agree with me, that he does a really good job. You might not agree with some of his post but hes volunteering his time to do the STATE rankings for you me and the whole state. What are you doing for the sport, or Indiana wrestling?

M.R.G. does a great job at the rankings and my hats off to him for his contribution to this sight , but that doesn't give him the right to say that Kral ran away from the match with Berry  when that was the coaches decision . It's easy for everyone to rip on someone sitting  behind a computor , I would really love to see you call Kral a chicken to his face then I guarantee someone would be running away , and it wouldn't be Tyler .

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M.R.G. does a great job at the rankings and my hats off to him for his contribution to this sight , but that doesn't give him the right to say that Kral ran away from the match with Berry  when that was the coaches decision . It's easy for everyone to rip on someone sitting  behind a computor , I would really love to see you call Kral a chicken to his face then I guarantee someone would be running away , and it wouldn't be Tyler .

I'm guessing he didn't mean he was literally running away, because we all seen him wrestle at HWT after the forfeit, and everyone knows that the coach ultimately makes the decision to bump or not.  That's funny that you say that if someone calls Kral a chicken to his face that there would be running away but it wouldn't be from him, what is this back to the future with Marty mcfly? I hope and think the young man wouldn't get worked up by someone calling him a chicken and make a dumb decision that would cost him his season. There's a mma post somewhere on this site, but this section is for wrestling. Tyler Kral is a tuff kid and im sure him and berry would of been a great match, I just wish I could of seen it. No one is bashing a kid that did nothing wrong, everyone but a select few are questioning the decisions to bump him away from the 2 best kids he would of seen thus far in the season

 

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i have to say hearing all this stuff about move-ins is bull. my first year of wrestling was 1989 and by 1992 i was a state qualifier and had a record of 32-6. going from 12-26 my first year. if it wasnt for coach vlink and the way he coached i dont beleive i would have been the wrestler i was, not saying i was great but dont beleive anyone else could have made me the wrestler i turned out to be.

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sOMEONE mentioned earlier about taft teams. Dat kinda got da ball rolling/ ole Vlink got it out of his head about kids just in his little wraslin in his little leauge. Hawkins got da club rollin- good kids want coachin and work out partners- parents want da best education - coachin - faciliies - dats da story

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