KarlHungus Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 There will alwyas be ego's most states have classed well in the past and a lot is about size were not a big state and not a small state so it doesn't benifit us there. Other states class because there democrat and believe things always are unfair. Wrestlign is not unfair and trying to make it unfair makes it less fair for others if you had a perfect system I would say yeah but there is none. How can you argue with that statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 There will alwyas be ego's most states have classed well in the past and a lot is about size were not a big state and not a small state so it doesn't benifit us there. Other states class because there democrat and believe things always are unfair. Wrestlign is not unfair and trying to make it unfair makes it less fair for others if you had a perfect system I would say yeah but there is none. How can you argue with that statement? I really can't... I am speechless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbulldog152 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Ok lets say we do go class... would the classes each have 154 teams? what would be enrollment of the smallest team in the bigger division compare to the biggest team in the bigger divsion? I would also like to know what what the difference for the smaller school. My biggest consern is that it wouldn't be fair for the smaller schools in the big division. What if that smallest school in the biggest division only has 1 more student than the bigest school in the small division. I want some imput on this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 The IHSAA has split up each class evenly in all the other sports, so I would not expect them to reinvent the wheel. Every time the state realigns the classes in other sports, there are always schools a few students from one classification. This would be no different in wrestling. The schools in the big class would see an increase of 25% in the number of state qualifiers, while the smaller class would see an increase of 75%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCard Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Little off topic, but since data has been compiled here, does anyone have any data on how long each state has had a folkstyle little kids program in place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 That would be interesting and it could show why indiana has been on the rise for the past few years. It use to be all freestyle i think you need to wrestle all styles to be the best you can be but folkstyle from younger ages would really help out the development process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbulldog152 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 What if the smallest school in the big div had only 750 students and the biggest has 4500 students? I looked at the football teams by size and Hamilton heights is right at the 50% of the teams mark with 728 students as of 2007. so it's fair for the small division range from 0-728 and the big to range from 728-4500? Thats the problem if we go with just 2 class system. I know the wrestling class would be different but it wouldn be fair to Hamilton heights who had no state qualifires to practically go throught the same teams since most of the New Castle Semi-State is bigger schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Exactly right no one to make the system fair for everyone no matter how you try and right now its perfectly fine the way it is. A dynasty of matre dei has been broken up by competitive programs coming up. Let the parity happen on its own don't force it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 But its perfectly fine for Garrett with 550 students to go up against schools of 4500 students though? So you are alright with beating up on the smaller schools, but if you have to face the bigger schools you are going to have issues with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 No he is saying there is no perfect way to fix it so why give anyone an advantage. An advantage to some make for dissadvantages to others. You can't make it perfect so don't switch it and last time i checked garrett was a .700 program vs big schools maybe they should have to move up after all you want it to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manvswild1 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Basically quit trying to change whats not broke your goingto break it and it will forever be screwed up 750 vs 550 is not that big of an advantage but your moving one up to wrestle 4500 kids 750 ets screwed so don't change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I'm not going to quit, long live the Democrats and Obamanation that is for class wrestling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbulldog152 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I will say I don't think politics has anything to do with it like manvswild1 said earlier. I'm more Liberal than conservative and I'm against class wrestling. I just don't think it's fair that a school with 750 kids would have to go up against a school with 4500 while a school with 749 can face a school with 100. if the cut off point was 2000 than maybe i 2250 (or 50% of the biggest school) than I could maybe see giving class wrestling in Indiana a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 So basically you are against it because you'll have to face the big boys more often instead of now where you can beat up on the little kids. That sounds like a great reason to not class wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbulldog152 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 no that's not what I'm saying I would rather it be classless I'd rather go against all the schools. But for me to go with class wrestling it would have to be fair for all teams which it won't be. to be honest my school would probably be in the lower half of the state. My school hasn't had a state qualifire since 1993. But I don't want my school to take the easy way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 no that's not what I'm saying I would rather it be classless I'd rather go against all the schools. But for me to go with class wrestling it would have to be fair for all teams which it won't be. to be honest my school would probably be in the lower half of the state. My school hasn't had a state qualifire since 1993. But I don't want my school to take the easy way out. The current system isn't fair to 155 schools right now, but you are alright with that correct? A proposed two class system "wouldn't be fair" to 20 schools that are close to the break and you are absolutely against that? Hamilton Heights would still have to go through Perry Meridian, Lawrence North, New Castle, etc to get kids to state. There would be little to no difference in the state tournament for them. The difference would be no teams like Alexandria, Frankton, Elwood, Guerin Catholic, Lapel, Tipton and Tri Central in your sectional. Do you prefer to wrestle those teams? I take it you enjoy beating up on a school like Lapel with 333 kids right? Is that what you train for is to beat a kid from Lapel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Y2, you are in favor of class wrestling, I get that, and I understand your arguements. I dont agree with all of them, but I understand them. So for the sake of arguement, lets assume that we go to 2 or 3 classes. Right now, you state that you get about 16 matches per year against schools that would be in a different class then you are in. If we have class wrestling, what would be the benefit to the large schools to ever wrestle against a small school. What you will see are schools scheduling tourney's against schools more there size. It wont happen over night, but eventually, unless the small school is like EMD, no large school is going to go out of thier way to put them on the schedule. They will however go out of thier way to make sure they go to tournaments that will feature kids in thier class. So the entire season will for the most part be divided, and you wont get near as many chances to wrestle against the large schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 So you are certain that would happen? Has that happened in basketball or baseball? I still see our baseball and basketball teams playing 3A and 4A schools from the area. Teams are going to want to face the best competition, no matter the size of the school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Just to add to it I looked over our girl's basketball schedule. I would consider the girl's team comparable to our wrestling team...just classed . They play 10 games out of conference this year, they played 4 games against 4A teams, 2 games against 3A teams and 5 against 2A teams. The 2A teams they played were all in their sectional. They played 6 games out of sectional and conference against bigger schools. To me it doesn't look like they had trouble scheduling some bigger schools in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire77 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 the school i went to is in a conference that has teams (schools) from different classes' from 5A to 2A in football. other than the sectional the schedule did not really change. we did not break up the conference or only schedule schools the same class as us. teams travel to participate in the Al Smith, i assume to get the best competition they can. i really don't think classing sports has changed the schools you would participate against except at tourney time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbulldog152 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 no that's not what I'm saying I would rather it be classless I'd rather go against all the schools. But for me to go with class wrestling it would have to be fair for all teams which it won't be. to be honest my school would probably be in the lower half of the state. My school hasn't had a state qualifire since 1993. But I don't want my school to take the easy way out. The current system isn't fair to 155 schools right now, but you are alright with that correct? A proposed two class system "wouldn't be fair" to 20 schools that are close to the break and you are absolutely against that? Hamilton Heights would still have to go through Perry Meridian, Lawrence North, New Castle, etc to get kids to state. There would be little to no difference in the state tournament for them. The difference would be no teams like Alexandria, Frankton, Elwood, Guerin Catholic, Lapel, Tipton and Tri Central in your sectional. Do you prefer to wrestle those teams? I take it you enjoy beating up on a school like Lapel with 333 kids right? Is that what you train for is to beat a kid from Lapel? I'm not from Hamilton Heights I'm from Batesville who is torwards the bottom of their sectional. We can compete with the smaller schools in our sectional but not the bigger ones. Batesville's last state qualifire was in 1993... a lot of that has to do with not having wrestle backs in semi-state. In class wrestling we'd maybe have one every year. And we'd probably be in the smaller division. so don't judge my school based on the fact that I want classless wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Getting a little feisty are we? I was just using the example you threw out there of Hamilton Heights. Do you really think that the numbers would change dramatically if we had wrestle-backs? Would small schools double their number of state qualifiers if there were wrestle-backs? I would say the numbers would not change enough to make a difference. So what is your reason for staying a single class state tournament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busstogate Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 All I was saying that was from whenever to '74 there was less of a total population for everyone than there was from '74 to now. So as population grows programs will grow and as total population grows then state pop. grows and then the NCAA champs from a state will go up. Theoretically, this should prove to be true if urban and community planning could be anything more than a process of contours, but are we taking into account outside and immeasurable factors that make the chances of a fringe sport like wrestling have a snowball's chance in hell of registering within the collective conscious of the masses, especially in urban and suburban communities that have full access to the media narcotizing of our revenue sports, their dishonest tax-abating political benefactors, and their spectacle-clothed and-producing "stars"? We have to fight the good fight and hope that, wrestler by wrestler, life by life, we can help the sport survive by allowing the individual wrestler's successes and virtues to be both reflective of the sport's virtues and also projective toward showing even the most miniscule number of bystanders that we as a sport of individuals are viable and are in fact still showing the ideals displayed during the times of the Greeks toward their city-state communities and that these communities are the better for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I wrestled in IL in the late 70's early 80's. We were a Class A Catholic school (our conference disbanded after my frosh yr) and there were 3 public Class AA schools in our tri-city area. Frankly, the only duals we wrestled against AA competition were those same city schools. Now tourney's were different. We were able to get into a lot of AA ivitational tourney's but not against the best of the best, mostly south suburban chicago AA tourneys. We didn't do the super dual format like is prevalent today but I would agree that a classed system would, during the season, move big schools to wrestle other big schools in their duals as well as super duals. The only thing that would help small schools to schedule big schools for duals would be their intra conference foes. This isn't an argument against class system because, frankly, I think it would make the big schools better in the long run and that would put more IN h.s. wrestlers into D1 programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinedad Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Just a question to see where it goes. If we institute class wrestling, and we start sending more kids to the DI level, how will that affect the DII and D III schools that we have in the state. My hypothisis is that since we are sending only a few of the studs to the DI programs, the majority of the other kids that would presumably be going to the DI schools in a class system, are the same kids that are populating the rosters of Wabash, Manchester, Trine, U of Indianapolis. My assumption is that if these kids were good enough to go DI, the coaches would know that, and recruit them anyway. So we send more kids to populate the practice squad at more DI schools. It is a fairly safe assumption that they will not be varsity, since they are not being recruited heavily, atleast for the 1st 2-3 years. We will then in fact hurt the DII and DIII programs that we have in state that are preforming at a high level nationally, and are accepting our states high schools wrestlers and allowing them a place to wrestle that is usually much closer to home, and offers them an outstanding education in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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