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Transgender Texas wrestler wins girls state

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Why is wrestling the only individual sport in Indiana that is not separated by gender?

 

We don't have girls playing boys in tennis, we don't have them swimming against each other, we don't even have them golfing against each other; and yet we have them competing in the only individual contact sport against each other...?

Girls gymnastics is considered the pairing to Boys Wrestling. And the IHSAA restricts boys from participate in girls gymnastics. Edited by MattM

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Why is wrestling the only individual sport in Indiana that is not separated by gender?

 

All you pro-class folks should be fighting for this... want to increase numbers - then have a separate class for girls wrestling... we do it in ISWA, we do it in college, we do it for world championships and for the Olympics... 

 

We don't have girls playing boys in tennis, we don't have them swimming against each other, we don't even have them golfing against each other; and yet we have them competing in the only individual contact sport against each other...?

Probably because most schools have girls swim, tennis and golf teams due to title IX.  It used to happen where girls competed against the guys in tennis and Golf when there was not a girls team at a school.    But we're past that now.  Because every school now has girls teams.   

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A couple thoughts.

 

1st -  He. His name is Mack, referring to him as she or her or worst of all "s/he" is just disrespectful. 

 

2nd - I'm not sure it really matters whether or not he officially put in a petition to wrestle with the boys or not. He has stated he would rather wrestle with the boys but there is a rule against it. He is following the rules as they are written. The issue should be with the rule not with the kid that is following them.

 

3rd - It is not the place of a state athletic asocciation to decide what medication is "medically necessary", and it is definitely not the place for somebody on a message board to decide.  There are a lot of reasons that people choose to transition, but none of them have anything to do with wanting to win a girls state title. To say that he shouldn't be allowed to compete because he is taking hormone therapy, which is prescribed by a doctor, is insane. Forcing a transgender athlete to choose between living in a body that fits their mind or competeing in a sport they love is just plain cruel.

 

4th - I have a feeling texas will be taking a look at their rules after all of this and I hope that other states with similar rules do the same.  These rules need to be changed. 

 

Right with you up to #2 - "He is following the rules as they are written..."

 

Maybe that is the problem - At the end of the day, he/she (it's confusing because the stage of transition reported - that doesn't make those who are confused wrong or inappropriate, it just makes them confused and that's normal), in her current physiological state, (anatomically a girl if the reports are correct) competed with a distinct competitive hormonal advantage against other similarly anatomical girl wrestlers.  That is wrong for those girls. That is no different than the German Olympic Athletes, Flo Joiner, etc. He has chosen an elective procedure - "medically necessary" should not apply. 

 

It is not fair to the other young women. The rules were not followed, and that people were afraid to stand up to the PC police; if "he" wanted to complete with the

boys, which I am all for, then take them to court and do it legally. But to allow it to happen is bowing to the PC police for .00001% while the individuals who follow the rules

are ignored. There are have been plenty of kids who have been pulled for various medicine requirements not allowed, and they were not provided special protections. 

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Again don't blame the athlete blame the governing body that said he followed the rules.

 

He is only doing what he is allowed to do because the state association won't allow him to Wrestle with the males due to what's on the birth certificate.

 

Blaming the athlete for a poorly written and executed rule doesn't solve anything.

 

And maybe Im biased in that I have transgender family members and I would hope that doing something that has been considered "passe" for so long they could just live their life and do what they love.

 

This particular individual loves to Wrestle we as a community should welcome and encourage it. Could the rules be clearer or perhaps modified to handle this situation better absolutely but again please don't put the onus of this issue on the athlete.

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The decision of the athlete and family includes the ramifications of the decision made. This is an unfair advantage and there is likely more to why the state association has this rule. What happens when a male says their gender identity is female, should they compete n the women's tournament? Look at the trackwrestling info, interesting, not seeing a strong desire to compete against males. Regardless, looks like Texas has women's and class wrestling, Indiana is slacking, ought ohh... :-)

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Again don't blame the athlete blame the governing body that said he followed the rules.

 

He is only doing what he is allowed to do because the state association won't allow him to Wrestle with the males due to what's on the birth certificate.

 

Blaming the athlete for a poorly written and executed rule doesn't solve anything.

 

And maybe Im biased in that I have transgender family members and I would hope that doing something that has been considered "passe" for so long they could just live their life and do what they love.

 

This particular individual loves to Wrestle we as a community should welcome and encourage it. Could the rules be clearer or perhaps modified to handle this situation better absolutely but again please don't put the onus of this issue on the athlete.

I wouldn't call it bias, I'd call it a perspective, one that can only come with knowing personally someone affected. Like almost anything, it is hard to be bigoted against something when you know and love someone affected, and therefore understand better the issue.

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The decision of the athlete and family includes the ramifications of the decision made. This is an unfair advantage and there is likely more to why the state association has this rule. What happens when a male says their gender identity is female, should they compete n the women's tournament? Look at the trackwrestling info, interesting, not seeing a strong desire to compete against males. Regardless, looks like Texas has women's and class wrestling, Indiana is slacking, ought ohh... :-)

I wish Indiana had enough female wrestlers competing to warrant a full tournament like this. Texas has some 4x the number of people, and so probably also 4x the number of interested competitors in female wrestling. To your other point, this has actually been addressed in sports with the support and consent of the Endocrine Society. Four years of anti-androgen therapy must be done before a male-to-female transition is considered female, biochemically. The IOC guidelines require that female trans athletes declare their gender for four years, and then demonstrate a testosterone level of less than 10 nanomoles/liter for at least one year prior to competition and throughout the period of eligibility. This also came up in MMA a couple years ago. It has been demonstrated that strength and structure effects of male-to-female transition are fully abrogated by 4 years of therapy and more than one year with the 10 nmole/L T level. So, probably in effect this would eliminate a male-to-female from competing as a female for intents and purposes in high school.

I would suspect that those promoting the "birth certificate assigned gender" laws popping up in certain states should know this--it is well documented. They are either intellectually lazy or with sinister intent in passing these laws, therefore. Pretty much when in doubt the athlete should compete as a male. I am quite certain that the promoters of these laws are much more interested in making political firing shots than they are in understanding the issues at a deep level. This is why they pass the laws with such haste, and why Mack and his female opponents are now in the situation that the STATE LAW put them in.

Looks like the stats do not sway far from the average post-transition, but this could be in part due to those that have transitioned are more likely to report an attempt. Still either way, a horrible stat to look into. 

 

Source: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Thank you, Novice bat, for the info. Still not clear from these data about non-transitioned TGs verses fully-transitioned, but anyway the main issue you addressed. Acceptance and living as they truly are is the true issue. You are right though, it is a terrible stat to be contemplating. Our job as people should be to help them in anyway we can!

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Right with you up to #2 - "He is following the rules as they are written..."

 

Maybe that is the problem - At the end of the day, he/she (it's confusing because the stage of transition reported - that doesn't make those who are confused wrong or inappropriate, it just makes them confused and that's normal), in her current physiological state, (anatomically a girl if the reports are correct) competed with a distinct competitive hormonal advantage against other similarly anatomical girl wrestlers.  That is wrong for those girls. That is no different than the German Olympic Athletes, Flo Joiner, etc. He has chosen an elective procedure - "medically necessary" should not apply. 

 

It is not fair to the other young women. The rules were not followed, and that people were afraid to stand up to the PC police; if "he" wanted to complete with the

boys, which I am all for, then take them to court and do it legally. But to allow it to happen is bowing to the PC police for .00001% while the individuals who follow the rules

are ignored. There are have been plenty of kids who have been pulled for various medicine requirements not allowed, and they were not provided special protections. 

 

You claim to have agreed with me "right up to #2" then immediately go back on that and dispute my first point. 

 

Look, we can disagree about the ruling and whether or not he should be allowed to wrestle. We can disagree about who is at fault for him wrestling girls while being treated with hormones that give a competitive advantage (to be clear, the state governing body is at fault and no one else).

 

What is not up for debate is the fact that Mack has decided to transition to male. He wants to be referred to as a boy, using male pronouns and his new name. To disrespect that and continue to refer to him as "he/she" is not "confusion" it's willful ignorance at best and outright bullying at worst.  It is no different than if everyone in your life decided to stop calling you by your name and instead refer to you as Sharon. It's just being mean.

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I wouldn't call it bias, I'd call it a perspective, one that can only come with knowing personally someone affected. Like almost anything, it is hard to be bigoted against something when you know and love someone affected, and therefore understand better the issue.

Enough with the PC nose thumbing. Disagreeing with a policy or legal position for your opinion of the legal interpretation is not ''bigoted' , it's called rational discussion & beliefs.

 

In theory according to legal tradition, the ideal judge is entirely dispassionate, not swayed by his/her experiences. Our sport is under attack from the Title IX moles, no different than sound rational opinions of individual accountability & equal protections is under assault in the US.

 

I'n sorry but Mack is not the victim here, the other girls are. He or she (at time) made the conscious choice to enter into hormonal drug therapy, that even most international government sport oversight agencies would require 4 year transition, and Mack's family chose not to follow those guidelines. Mack also had legal standing to challenge wrestling boys division but did not. She/He (again because anatomically she was s girl competing against girls) also could have did the right thing and admit or realize certain advantages gained from the drugs/growth hormone did not make it fair for her to compete against other equally anatomic or biologically configured girls, but she didn't.

 

And if one argues that her decision to transition was not "conscious" but medically necessary, that just feeds and proves the other narratives...

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I am not trying to start a political war on here its a wrestling website for damn sake. I will agree to disagree on this topic. That being said I do want to commend everyone for their level of respect on the issue like I said the transgender and LGBT community hits home for me a little harder than most and everyone here while maybe not in agreement has been very respectful towards the issue while defending their point. Another reason why I love this community so much.

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Agree Fabio, there's a place for all in the sport, but sound legal basis & rational fairness used by governing body is required to avoid making the sport look bad; that should matter.

 

Sadly, I await in the next few years, the legal crap-storm when we or other sports will have the opposite scenarios, being legally challenged by pre-transitioned of transitioned males wanting to compete as women.

 

It Doesn't mean we can't care about individuals & those in our personal spheres, but I dread the assault on reasonable & rational non-discriminate societal norms, to protect groups that in those scenarios, that are actually biologically advantaged.

 

I'm satisfied with Indiana's current policy in that regard, but realize this will also raise new awareness & discussion on female participation in the sport of wrestling in Indiana, which I welcome 100%, as long as it is not used as the hammer or anvil at the mercy of Title IX, which has directly & passive aggressivly scarred our sport.

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Enough with the PC nose thumbing. Disagreeing with a policy or legal position for your opinion of the legal interpretation is not ''bigoted' , it's called rational discussion & beliefs.

 

In theory according to legal tradition, the ideal judge is entirely dispassionate, not swayed by his/her experiences. Our sport is under attack from the Title IX moles, no different than sound rational opinions of individual accountability & equal protections is under assault in the US.

 

I'n sorry but Mack is not the victim here, the other girls are. He or she (at time) made the conscious choice to enter into hormonal drug therapy, that even most international government sport oversight agencies would require 4 year transition, and Mack's family chose not to follow those guidelines. Mack also had legal standing to challenge wrestling boys division but did not. She/He (again because anatomically she was s girl competing against girls) also could have did the right thing and admit or realize certain advantages gained from the drugs/growth hormone did not make it fair for her to compete against other equally anatomic or biologically configured girls, but she didn't.

 

And if one argues that her decision to transition was not "conscious" but medically necessary, that just feeds and proves the other narratives...

Just to be clear, no one who took part in this discussion exhibited any bigoted behavior, and we're all agreeing it seems that Mack should have competed as a male. However any read of any news article on this event can see the comments sections filled with bigotry against transgendered people, and society in general is loaded with anti-transgender bigotry right now. Fabio thought his position was biased in favor of transgendered people because he personally knows and has loved ones in this situation, and merely point out that I don't think that is really biased, but rather an inside perspective. One's perspective is undeniably changed when you know and love someone in the targeted group, no matter what that group may be. Those in that Texas arena who were swirling insults at Mack, or those filling the news pages with their hate-filled comments would figure NOT to have the inside perspective that Fabio has.

I think the sport will be fine as long as we stick to the science and recommendations of those who know how transgender works. If we fall back on the IOC style policy and require a 4 year time with at least one year at the appropriate serum T level, we'll have all the legal justification to keep the girls division fair from those who might try to game the system.

One of the great things about wrestlers in my experience is that they want to be the champion and EARN it. It just would be empty for any real boy to "fake" being female to get a medal. If they want a medal that bad they can just come see me and I'll go buy them one. If one stoops to that level to be fake, any championship would be meaningless, and I have faith in our boys that they won't do that--I just don't see it happening, but who knows. Like I said, if we stick to scientifically-justified policy, we'll be fine.

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What is not up for debate is the fact that Mack has decided to transition to male. He wants to be referred to as a boy, using male pronouns and his new name. To disrespect that and continue to refer to him as "he/she" is not "confusion" it's willful ignorance at best and outright bullying at worst.  It is no different than if everyone in your life decided to stop calling you by your name and instead refer to you as Sharon. It's just being mean.

I would disagree with this. Is gender a choice like what kind of soda do I like Coke or Pepsi? I for one do not think it is. You can call it bigoted all you want (this does hit home for me and I love the person who is caught in this) I do not think I am. There was a president of an NAACP chapter who turned out to be white but identified as an African-American. Should that not be bigoted? Should she then, by the logic being presented here, be able to choose her ethnicity?

 

Not trying to be disrespectful, but I do not buy what the cultural elites are trying to force on me!

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TCCender - agree % , especially your point about gaming the system. As to the Texas event, that they booed is one thing that might be inappropriate, but their personal reasons why the might be in disagreement is another issue. Those in attendance might be more versed in the situation than us here, as it was in the news down there, A good majority could have been knowledgeable enough to have taken issue with the drug issue making the woman's match unfair.

Personally I myself wouldn't boo a student athlete for this either....but actually I was referring the harsh comments some were said to have yelled (I wasn't there, obviously, so I'm going on news paper reports), and comments I hear all the time regarding transgenderism, including news article comment section entries.

I wonder what the truth is regarding whether they even tried to use the law to get into the male division. I wonder what would have happened if in September or October they had filed suit. I'm sure a big time lawyer might have picked up that case pro bono to bring national attention to these types of ill-fated laws. Now I read that some in Texas are so pissed that they want a full out ban on all potential therapeutics, all with mandatory and random testing. This policy can be debated on its merits of course, but it is amazing to me that   nationally some 20-25% of high school athletes have admitted to using various forms of PEDs, with some sports more than others. But that staggering number isn't what prompts the call for widespread testing in Texas: it's the fact that there's a transgender involved that puts them over the edge. I wonder though, in football-crazed Texas, what is going to happen when some rootin' tootin' Texan's all-star D1 recruit linebacker son gets suspended senior year for PED use that is picked up as a result of a possible mandatory policy that is put in place to target transgender students.

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I would disagree with this. Is gender a choice like what kind of soda do I like Coke or Pepsi? I for one do not think it is. You can call it bigoted all you want (this does hit home for me and I love the person who is caught in this) I do not think I am. There was a president of an NAACP chapter who turned out to be white but identified as an African-American. Should that not be bigoted? Should she then, by the logic being presented here, be able to choose her ethnicity?

 

Not trying to be disrespectful, but I do not buy what the cultural elites are trying to force on me!

Let me try to answer this. The answer to your question of is this a choice is, NO, it is not a choice. It is biologically-driven, but the phenotypes that arise are much more complex than simply external genitalia, and so in truth there is assigned gender, and there is true biological gender. What happens in the brain during development may or may not correlate to what grew in the groin area in utero. You can read my previous post on the genetic and biological basis of gender for more detail. For 99.7% of people, this is easy, coordinated and consistent. Assigned gender equals biological gender in these circumstances. For the other 0.3% of cases, gender assigned at birth does not correlate to the rest of their biology. The only choices to be made, then, are whether to live life as the wrong gender, or change to the correct one, and then WHEN to make any change.

So those of us who are men....think about all of our thoughts, urges, behavioral tendencies, etc. We don't really choose these. Some is taught by our upbringing, but some is not--it is part of our biology. It is encoded in us. Males and females are distinct, mentally as well as physically. This is controlled by brain chemistry, and brain chemistry is ultimately controlled by our hormonal axis. Now imagine having all of these same thoughts, behaviors, urges, etc, but being born with female external genitalia (or in some cases ambiguous genitalia that is guessed upon and surgically corrected at birth). Imagine the confusion this person must have. Almost all of transgender situations can be traced back to expression ambiguities or polymorphisms in either the hormonal axis genes or the sex chromosomes. So, no, in that sense you are correct--you cannot "choose" your gender, only whether or not be public as one or another gender.

To this end, the comparison to ethnicity is flawed. You cannot choose your ethnicity either, but there isn't necessarily an agreed upon "norm" to what ethnicity behaves as. True, if one is of a certain ancestry, one has to be aware of certain genetic tendencies toward some diseases. Yet this woman you speak of who "decided" to be African American cannot, in truth, choose this. What does that even mean?  Any African American can do anything someone of European, Asian, or Hispanic ancestry can do, and vice versa. On the other hand, there is a pattern to what a man does, and a pattern to what a female does, and feels. In this, then, the bigotry here comes in if one does not accept a person for who they truly are, or discriminates against a person simply for who they are in an unwarranted fashion. We can debate the particulars, such as this great thread has done above, in that it would be more appropriate for Mack to wrestle in the male division. This statement is not bigoted. It also is not bigoted to be concerned about what exogenous hormonal therapy might mean for performance, as long as we keep it based on the science and not hyperbole. On the other hand, if we scorn transgender people, call them crazy, think of them as weirdos, or discriminate against them in an unwarranted fashion, then I would say that this would qualify as bigotry. So far the only example on this thread of that (someone referring to Mack as an "it") was taken down. I hope, as a society, all of us can have the type of discourse shown on this thread. If so, we can help transgender people achieve normalcy in their lives, and be better for it.

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