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Westforkwhite

Class Wrestling - Participation

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Benefit #1

Participation

 

One of the goals of Multi class wrestling would be to increase participation. Please discuss how you believe participation would or wouldn't be impacted by class wrestling.

 


Here is a link to the wrestling participation numbers for all states from 1969-2015.

 

http://www.nfhs.org/ParticipationStatics/ParticipationStatics.aspx/

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I am totally new, and therefore totally unqualified and I haven't participated in previous discussions / debates...but if the argument is that class wrestling would increase participation that would seem to be totally illogical.

 

Of any sport that I have seen, you either love to wrestle or you don't.  I really don't think expecting a "successful state run" will matter much to a 14-18 year old kid making a choice to wrestle.  

 

And of any sport there is...wrestling is the ultimate meritocracy.  It does not matter where you are from...if you can beat the guy in front of you then you advance.  Just the incredibly long list of schools participating in the state finals...and the fact that small schools can have multiples more participants than the behemoth high schools (or some 5A and 6A football schools having ZERO participants in the state finals) proves this fact.  

 

Any statistics that would seem to show a correlation between class wrestling and an increase in participation would be a study in false equivalency in my opinion.  

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I've added the information from several states into a spreadsheet, for easier handling of the data. I'll be attaching it shortly.

 

Some initial observations.

1) Wrestling is down nationwide (we all know this), but from historical high of 355K wrestlers in 75-76 we have fallen off quite a bit.

2) Class Wrestling was largely implemented in 70's and had little (if any) effect in curbing the downward participation trends. I have no reason to believe multi class wrestling was the cause of the drops, as I believe a myriad of societal factors played the biggest role.

3) NY has shown increases since going to class, but has receded in the past 4 years. NY is the most current example of a state going to multi class, and a better comparison I believe than many of the states that classed back in the 70's.

4) IN has recently classed a sport which is entwined in the very fabric of the states identify, and that hasn't gone quite as well as we hoped. IN has seen major drops in basketball participation since multi class, which doesn't coincide with the major national decline which subsided prior to multi class implementation. The friday night bball game was under pressure from societal forces but multi class drove the death knell towards public apathy. That apathy translated into less kids that were interested and thus less that played in HS.

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I am totally new, and therefore totally unqualified and I haven't participated in previous discussions / debates...but if the argument is that class wrestling would increase participation that would seem to be totally illogical.

 

Of any sport that I have seen, you either love to wrestle or you don't.  I really don't think expecting a "successful state run" will matter much to a 14-18 year old kid making a choice to wrestle.

Schools with more success tend to have better participation, why is that? If more schools have MORE success do you think that will grow the sport?

 

And of any sport there is...wrestling is the ultimate meritocracy.  It does not matter where you are from...if you can beat the guy in front of you then you advance.  Just the incredibly long list of schools participating in the state finals...and the fact that small schools can have multiples more participants than the behemoth high schools (or some 5A and 6A football schools having ZERO participants in the state finals) proves this fact.

That is anecdotal evidence.

Here are real statistics rather than general observations

From 2011-2016

3 classes

Pla- 3A(xx.xx%)  2A(xx.xx%)  1A(xx.xx%)

1st- 63(75.00%)  17(20.24%)  4(4.76%

2nd- 67(79.76%)  14(16.67%)  3(3.57%

3rd- 56(66.67%)  23(27.38%)  5(5.95%

4th- 52(61.90%)  27(32.14%)  5(5.95%

5th- 58(69.05%)  22(26.19%)  4(4.76%

6th- 59(70.24%)  20(23.81%)  5(5.95%

7th- 65(77.38%)  16(19.05%)  3(3.57%

8th- 61(72.62%)  13(15.48%)  10(11.90%

 

Qualifiers- total

3A- 1160- 64.73%

2A- 468- 26.12%

1A- 164- 9.15%

 

Any statistics that would seem to show a correlation between class wrestling and an increase in participation would be a study in false equivalency in my opinion.

More success means more people recognized for their hard work. More people recognized would lead to more promotion of the sport and thus more popularity. That is good.

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If you're measuring factor that caused decreased participation rates,  I think you have to explain by more sports available to athletes including club sports and specialization in one sport.


How many players has wrestling to Hockey, Lacrosse, Water Polo, Tennis  or even Quidditch.  That's a real thing.   Also,  most of those kids placing on Saturday night wrestle year round.   They're less likely to play other sports.

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That is anecdotal evidence.

Here are real statistics rather than general observations

From 2011-2016

3 classes

Pla- 3A(xx.xx%)  2A(xx.xx%)  1A(xx.xx%)

1st- 63(75.00%)  17(20.24%)  4(4.76%

2nd- 67(79.76%)  14(16.67%)  3(3.57%

3rd- 56(66.67%)  23(27.38%)  5(5.95%

4th- 52(61.90%)  27(32.14%)  5(5.95%

5th- 58(69.05%)  22(26.19%)  4(4.76%

6th- 59(70.24%)  20(23.81%)  5(5.95%

7th- 65(77.38%)  16(19.05%)  3(3.57%

8th- 61(72.62%)  13(15.48%)  10(11.90%

 

Qualifiers- total

3A- 1160- 64.73%

2A- 468- 26.12%

1A- 164- 9.15%

 

More success means more people recognized for their hard work. More people recognized would lead to more promotion of the sport and thus more popularity. That is good.

 

I don't have time to do the research at the moment, but my hypothesis is that your stats on State Qualifiers would seem to prove my point.  How is that?

 

Well...I would venture to say that 65% of IHSAA wrestlers go to 3A schools, 26% go to 2A schools, and 9% go to 1A schools.  In other words, if those 2 figures match up (overall wrestling population by school vs. state finals participation) then that would seem to say that where you go to school doesn't matter.  

If the Ellis kid from Eastern went to Ben Davis, Penn, or Warren Central...that kid is still going to win state.  

 

What am I missing?

Edited by Kookie953

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I've added the information from several states into a spreadsheet, for easier handling of the data. I'll be attaching it shortly.

 

Some initial observations.

1) Wrestling is down nationwide (we all know this), but from historical high of 355K wrestlers in 75-76 we have fallen off quite a bit.

2) Class Wrestling was largely implemented in 70's and had little (if any) effect in curbing the downward participation trends. I have no reason to believe multi class wrestling was the cause of the drops, as I believe a myriad of societal factors played the biggest role.

3) NY has shown increases since going to class, but has receded in the past 4 years. NY is the most current example of a state going to multi class, and a better comparison I believe than many of the states that classed back in the 70's.

4) IN has recently classed a sport which is entwined in the very fabric of the states identify, and that hasn't gone quite as well as we hoped. IN has seen major drops in basketball participation since multi class, which doesn't coincide with the major national decline which subsided prior to multi class implementation. The friday night bball game was under pressure from societal forces but multi class drove the death knell towards public apathy. That apathy translated into less kids that were interested and thus less that played in HS.

 

1. That could also be why New York has low participation numbers too.

2. From what i have gathered here are the numbers of states that went to class during these times

1980-6
1970-7
1960-8
So your statement is false and based on a generality and not on facts
3. New York has goofy rules where you don't represent your school at state, but your region. On top of that you basically have to be a regional champ to advance to state.
4. That is an opinion, That is not based on fact. There was no way we would keep having 100,000 people at our state finals like during the Damon Bailey years.
 
Lastly, the NFHS data is a decent gauge, but it's not the bible. It is all based on what schools report as their rosters. I saw the data from California and they had schools reporting 200+ wrestlers when they have like 1000 students. So take those numbers with a little bit of a grain of salt.

I don't have time to do the research at the moment, but my hypothesis is that your stats on State Qualifiers would seem to prove my point.  How is that?

 

Well...I would venture to say that 65% of IHSAA wrestlers go to 3A schools, 26% go to 2A schools, and 9% go to 1A schools.  In other words, if those 2 figures match up (overall wrestling population by school vs. state finals participation) then that would seem to say that where you go to school doesn't matter.  

If the Ellis kid from Eastern went to Ben Davis, Penn, or Warren Central...that kid is still going to win state.  

 

What am I missing?

3A schools don't enter 65% of the kids at sectional though. They enter 33% of them.

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1. That could also be why New York has low participation numbers too.

2. From what i have gathered here are the numbers of states that went to class during these times

1980-6
1970-7
1960-8
So your statement is false and based on a generality and not on facts
3. New York has goofy rules where you don't represent your school at state, but your region. On top of that you basically have to be a regional champ to advance to state.
4. That is an opinion, That is not based on fact. There was no way we would keep having 100,000 people at our state finals like during the Damon Bailey years.
 
Lastly, the NFHS data is a decent gauge, but it's not the bible. It is all based on what schools report as their rosters. I saw the data from California and they had schools reporting 200+ wrestlers when they have like 1000 students. So take those numbers with a little bit of a grain of salt.

3A schools don't enter 65% of the kids at sectional though. They enter 33% of them.

 

I'm making some quick observations not laying out a complete factual case.

 

1) You are speculating

2) So the 70's is really the mean and without listing each state it gave an accurate glance when looking at the info as a whole

3) This supports your points, don't fight it

4) No it isn't an opinion, attendance numbers were down significantly immediately following multi class, and the participation #s dropping are straight out of the NFHS. It only requires evaluating the rate of decline pre class vs post class and comparing that to the national rate of decline. We were doing better than the national average before class, and worse after.

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I coached at at small school for several years. I don't think winning a watered down sectional would have had any impact on my numbers. I think my kids enjoyed the chance to compete with the larger schools. We played a weak football schedule and that didn't help out numbers. 

It all boils down to how much time a coach can put into the youth programs. Get the kids and keep them interested. 

To me the class Basketball tournament is like Varsity, Junior Varsity and Freshman championships. 

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I'm making some quick observations not laying out a complete factual case.

 

1) You are speculating

2) So the 70's is really the mean and without listing each state it gave an accurate glance when looking at the info as a whole

3) This supports your points, don't fight it

4) No it isn't an opinion, attendance numbers were down significantly immediately following multi class, and the participation #s dropping are straight out of the NFHS. It only requires evaluating the rate of decline pre class vs post class and comparing that to the national rate of decline. We were doing better than the national average before class, and worse after.

Be careful when debating Joe on Class wrestling.  He has a huge file full of data, stats and other relevant info.  He can dig deep.  Many a poster, has gone away with their legs  between their tails after taking Joe on class wrestling.

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Here are the IHSAA basketball tournament attendance figures from 1992-2008

 

2008 427,974

 

2007 456,960

 

2006 474,881

 

2005 497,266

 

2004 475,023

 

2003 474,088

 

2002 438,430

 

2001 457,010

 

2000 387,710

 

1999 429,140

 

1998 434,752(first year multi-class -352,728 fans in one year)

 

1997 786,024 (last season of single class)

 

1996 786,852

 

1995 812,859

 

1994 775,670

 

1993 839,545

 

1992 861,124

 

If 352K people drop off the attendance in one year and that coincides with the year they changed to class wrestling, it suggests without too much speculation that that not near as many people cared about it as did prior to multi class.

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I'm making some quick observations not laying out a complete factual case.

 

1) You are speculating

2) So the 70's is really the mean and without listing each state it gave an accurate glance when looking at the info as a whole

3) This supports your points, don't fight it

4) No it isn't an opinion, attendance numbers were down significantly immediately following multi class, and the participation #s dropping are straight out of the NFHS. It only requires evaluating the rate of decline pre class vs post class and comparing that to the national rate of decline. We were doing better than the national average before class, and worse after.

4. False, attendance was steadily dropping. In 1980 over 1 million people went to an IHSAA state series(sectional on) game. In 1997 before class basketball it was about 786,000. 

Here are the IHSAA basketball tournament attendance figures from 1992-2008

 

2008 427,974

 

2007 456,960

 

2006 474,881

 

2005 497,266

 

2004 475,023

 

2003 474,088

 

2002 438,430

 

2001 457,010

 

2000 387,710

 

1999 429,140

 

1998 434,752(first year multi-class -352,728 fans in one year)

 

1997 786,024 (last season of single class)

 

1996 786,852

 

1995 812,859

 

1994 775,670

 

1993 839,545

 

1992 861,124

 

If 352K people drop off the attendance in one year and that coincides with the year they changed to class wrestling, it suggests without too much speculation that that not near as many people cared about it as did prior to multi class.

 

And...

1991: 903,430 (decrease)

1990: 981,395 (increase)

1989: 965,042 (increase)

1988: 940,838 (increase)

1987: 916,872 (decrease)

1986: 946,705 (decrease)

1985: 994,899 (decrease)

1984: 1,036,261 (decrease 32K)

1983: 1,064,987 (decrease of 12K makes it even for two years)

1982: 1,076,886 (rise in attendance of 12K)

1981: 1,064,764 (rise in attendance of 55k)

1980: 1,005,778 

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I don't have time to do the research at the moment, but my hypothesis is that your stats on State Qualifiers would seem to prove my point.  How is that?

 

Well...I would venture to say that 65% of IHSAA wrestlers go to 3A schools, 26% go to 2A schools, and 9% go to 1A schools.  In other words, if those 2 figures match up (overall wrestling population by school vs. state finals participation) then that would seem to say that where you go to school doesn't matter.  

If the Ellis kid from Eastern went to Ben Davis, Penn, or Warren Central...that kid is still going to win state.  

 

What am I missing?

If things were fair obviously the 10 % of the kids who go to small schools would make up 33% of the qualifiers. Common sense.

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I don't have time to do the research at the moment, but my hypothesis is that your stats on State Qualifiers would seem to prove my point.  How is that?

 

Well...I would venture to say that 65% of IHSAA wrestlers go to 3A schools, 26% go to 2A schools, and 9% go to 1A schools.  In other words, if those 2 figures match up (overall wrestling population by school vs. state finals participation) then that would seem to say that where you go to school doesn't matter.  

If the Ellis kid from Eastern went to Ben Davis, Penn, or Warren Central...that kid is still going to win state.  

 

What am I missing?

Ellis is one of only six state champions over the past six years from the bottom 1/3 of schools. That is 1 out of 98 state champions. On top of that he is one of 10 finalists from those small schools also.

 

That is called anecdotal evidence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

If things were fair obviously the 10 % of the kids who go to small schools would make up 33% of the qualifiers. Common sense.

I'll offer you the wager again this year.

 

You get all 1A wrestlers that enter the state tournament which is about 1000. I'll pick 50 wrestlers of my choosing from a 3A school and we'll see who gets more state qualifiers.

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All of the statistics are nice and all. As a mathematics teacher I should appreciate them more.  But mathematically speaking, even if you show a correlation it does not mean a causation.  MY OPINION is that the decline is wrestling numbers has to do with several factors that we probably don't have statistical evidence for.  I do not think single v. multi-class is significant. Here are 2 factors that I think are contributing:

  1. Despite all our societal lip service to things like grit, persistence and personal accountability, these are on the decline in actual practice.  Since wrestling has a high demand for all of these, it is not surprising to me that fewer kids are interested.
  2. Increase in other sports and the ability to do those sports year round.

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4. False, attendance was steadily dropping. In 1980 over 1 million people went to an IHSAA state series(sectional on) game. In 1997 before class basketball it was about 786,000. 

 

And...

1991: 903,430 (decrease)

1990: 981,395 (increase)

1989: 965,042 (increase)

1988: 940,838 (increase)

1987: 916,872 (decrease)

1986: 946,705 (decrease)

1985: 994,899 (decrease)

1984: 1,036,261 (decrease 32K)

1983: 1,064,987 (decrease of 12K makes it even for two years)

1982: 1,076,886 (rise in attendance of 12K)

1981: 1,064,764 (rise in attendance of 55k)

1980: 1,005,778 

One interesting relevant point of reference.  "Hoosiers" the most movie came out in 1986.    This movie is the epitome and essence of single class sports as it celebrates the Cinderalla Lore of Indiana traditions.  But with the Hype and celebration of one class in Indiana by Gene Hackman movie,   attendance decreased by 50K that year.    Explain that.

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4. False, attendance was steadily dropping. In 1980 over 1 million people went to an IHSAA state series(sectional on) game. In 1997 before class basketball it was about 786,000. 

 

 

And...

1991: 903,430 (decrease)

1990: 981,395 (increase)

1989: 965,042 (increase)

1988: 940,838 (increase)

1987: 916,872 (decrease)

1986: 946,705 (decrease)

1985: 994,899 (decrease)

1984: 1,036,261 (decrease 32K)

1983: 1,064,987 (decrease of 12K makes it even for two years)

1982: 1,076,886 (rise in attendance of 12K)

1981: 1,064,764 (rise in attendance of 55k)

1980: 1,005,778

We lost more in one year (the 1st year of multi class) than we did in the prior 15 years combined. Losing 45% of your fanbase in one year, is huge and directly linked to classing the sport. That said we don't know that it would have the same impact on wrestling, but it's hard to formulate a coherent argument against the fact that class bball hurt attendance instantaneously.

Edited by Westforkwhite

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If things were fair obviously the 10 % of the kids who go to small schools would make up 33% of the qualifiers. Common sense.

 

Last I looked 11% of the population was from 1a schools, so 11% of the population, based on your logic, should produce 11% of the placers and champs, right?

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Last I looked 11% of the population was from 1a schools, so 11% of the population, based on your logic, should produce 11% of the placers and champs, right?

Yes, that would be true.  I have no problem admitting that this is a possible fault in my argument, no questions. I believe there are several possible reasons for why you see a drop in the number of placers and qualifiers at small schools, but I can admit that this is the one level that the class wrestling argument may hold some relevance.

Edited by buscowrestling

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I'm coaching at a small school, with small numbers. I don't believe a change to class wrestling would help get more kids into the wrestling room. From my experience at a small school, we have a problem with parents not wanting to get their kids involved. It's too much work and responsibility for them to pick their kids up from practice everyday, so the don't let them join the youth clubs. Involvement is down because the generation of adults with school aged children are busy chasing the American dream and would rather their kids just stay home and play video games. Where they don't have to be responsible for picking them up and dropping them off especially on the early Weekend mornings involved in wrestling. Also, the kids can get a sense of winning without putting in any work.

 

I also think that it is easier to train to be the best when you have 30 kids in the room everyday instead of 8-10. You also tend to have more chances and places to in the off season at communities where your bigger schools are. There is more population so it is easier to support a club or training center. For one of my kids to get to a decent wrestling academy there is atleas an hour drive.

 

So what I'm saying is small community schools where I'm from in the middle of nowhere southern Indiana are at a disadvantage to larger schools (not necessarily larger schools but more densely populated areas) but watering down the state series won't help the sport but just take all merit away from winning a state title.

Edited by sweepsingle113

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Good points above, sounds like they have been argued as nasueum before so nothing to really add.

 

One argument I have yet to see made however is the same argument I had about class basketball. I happened to be the last class that ever played single class basketball, and was asked to give a "player's opinion" way back when.

 

Too much emphasis is put on the "ultimate" win (state finals) than what is just as much of a storyline...which is the cinderlla that may beat a big guy for a sectional title.

 

This is antecodtal evidence, but Tri West is a consolidation of 3 small Hendricks county schools...the former Pittsboro, Lizton, and North Salem High Schools. Back in 1975 Pittsboro pulled the mammoth upset and won their sectional over the "big boys" of Plainfield and Brownsburg. That sectional win is still talked today on the barstool of the Mason Inn in Pittsboro just as much or if not more as the class State championship TriWest participated in.

 

There's also something to be said about geography and being able to beat those you live close to that is totally lost by doing classes.

 

It's not always about state finals...sometimes beating the guy from the big school to punch your 4th place and ticket to regional is as meaningful as 2 forefeits and pinning a scrub would do to advance to the small school regional.

Edited by Kookie953

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Yes, that would be true.  I have no problem admitting that this is a possible fault in my argument, no questions. I believe there are several possible reasons for why you see a drop in the number of placers and qualifiers at small schools, but I can admit that this is the one level that the class wrestling argument may hold some relevance.

Reasons the qualifiers are closely attached to enrollments

1. No wrestle-backs so our true state qualifiers are hindered by a draw.

2. Big schools are handicapped by only having 14 entries, many JV kids at these schools could be knocking the smaller school kids out earlier in the tournament

3. Regionals are made up of mostly same size schools. This produces more semi-state champions from those similar sized schools and better chances for a draw...see #1

Good points above, sounds like they have been argued as nasueum before so nothing to really add.

 

One argument I have yet to see made however is the same argument I had about class basketball. I happened to be the last class that ever played single class basketball, and was asked to give a "player's opinion" way back when.

 

Too much emphasis is put on the "ultimate" win (state finals) than what is just as much of a storyline...which is the cinderlla that may beat a big guy for a sectional title.

 

This is antecodtal evidence, but Tri West is a consolidation of 3 small Hendricks county schools...the former Pittsboro, Lizton, and North Salem High Schools. Back in 1975 Pittsboro pulled the mammoth upset and won their sectional over the "big boys" of Plainfield and Brownsburg. That sectional win is still talked today on the barstool of the Mason Inn in Pittsboro just as much or if not more as the class State championship TriWest participated in.

 

There's also something to be said about geography and being able to beat those you live close to that is totally lost by doing classes.

 

It's not always about state finals...sometimes beating the guy from the big school to punch your 4th place and ticket to regional is as meaningful as 2 forefeits and pinning a scrub would do to advance to the small school regional.

So you want to hold out on class wrestling so that we can sit at the bar and talk about Evan Ellis winning a state title?

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Yes that's exactly it.

 

You've convinced me. What Indiana needs is 6 classes and much bigger trophies. That way the kids will feel extra special and more will participate!

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Yes that's exactly it.

 

You've convinced me. What Indiana needs is 6 classes and much bigger trophies. That way the kids will feel extra special and more will participate!

Ahhh yes...an oldie but goodie there! Can't stop you now.

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Yes that's exactly it.

 

You've convinced me. What Indiana needs is 6 classes and much bigger trophies. That way the kids will feel extra special and more will participate!

Why does everybody have to bail out with the old "with me need more participation awards" line.  Also, the fatalistic, if aint the old way It used to be , then we need to blow it up with 20 classes. Make an argument, and but your losing it with stupid comments like this.

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