SunDevils

2 hours ago, brickfor6 said:

Why isn't Micic on your list? Also his score at the world championship is better than everyone on the list, can you configure in world placement to this? 

 

Great catch - it was strictly an oversight. I have updated it accordingly. Did Stevan happen to qualify all 4 years at NCAA's? It looks like he was strictly a 3 time placer at NCAA's and lost a year of qualifying due to transferring out of Northwestern.

Best ever - focused strictly on high school and college accolades since the styles are the same:

Wrestler/Avg High School Placement/ Avg College Placement/Combined Total

Andrew Howe, 1.25, 2, 3.25

Nick Lee, 2, 3, 4

Angel Escebedo, 1, 3.25, 4.25

Jason Tsirtsis, 1, 5*, 6

Mason Parris, 1.5, 4.25*, 5.75

Reece Humphrey, 4*, 5.75*, 9.75

Chad Red, 1, 7.5*, 8.5

Stevan Micic , 2, 4.5*, 6.5

*years they were strictly a qualifier for NCAA's or state it is assumed a place of 9th.  

Like golf the lower the number the better. Simply following this logic: 1) Andrew Howe; 2) Nick Lee; 3) Angel Escebedo; 4) Mason Parris; and 5) Jason Tsirtsis.

3 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Ok, What we've learned about Evansville food from Indianamat:

1. Best Pizza is Pizza King

2. Best Tacos are Taco Bell

3. Best Italian Beef is Arby's

 

Is it a fair assumption to say best Chinese is Panda Express?   

Hey don't be too hard on Evansville, it is not like Indiana is some food mecca. People in Indiana think City BBQ is good BBQ... that couldn't even sell at a gas station here in Texas  - joking aside St. Elmos - stellar for any city in the U.S. 

1 hour ago, TysonNisley said:

Agree, most kids over 285 are probably not healthy, and it would be beneficial to most to make 285. Basically every other sport doesn't force kids to get down to weight in order to compete, but losing weight in wrestling is not something isolated to only heavyweight wrestlers. It doesn't seem like an unfair restriction imposed on heavyweight wrestlers when most wrestlers also have to make weight as well.

 

And before it's brought up as a rebuttal, of course you aren't forced to cut weight in wrestling. However, most wrestlers at the very least follow a somewhat strict schedule and are forced to maintain some sort of weight throughout the season. Nobody is trying to jump up weight classes during wrestling season.

 

Establishing a 315 weight class would create a very small weight class (ironically) in which most (not all) could make 285 instead, and probably be healthier at that weight.

I couldn't careless if there is a weight class that is 95lb or +300lb. However, facts should be weighed, and if lawsuits are going to be suggested at least have a basic understanding of the law. Courts have decided sports are "a privilege not, a right" as recently as 2008. If a sport chooses to set limits, then it has liberty to do so and so long as it fairly and equally enforces those limitations they are not at fault. And if weight is not a protected class, then a sport has every right under current construct of the law to develop competitive parameters. 

Additionally, other sports impose restrictions UFC and bodybuilding have weight classes. The NBA has only had 25 players 5'9" or shorter despite the fact there are possibly shorter players more skilled than their taller counterparts. The average NFL player weight was 243.74 in 2022 (per the NFL) and the last player to weigh 150lbs and play in the NFL is Brandon Banks (2010-2012). Granted the NBA and NFL do not have rules officially prohibiting short players or light players but functionally they are historically exclusionary. And since sport is legally a privilege, not a right as the law is currently written they would have the right to set up their own parameters if they desire. 

What you are asking is should there be a weight class of 315? Which is entirely different and warrants a legitimate conversation, rather than referring to the ACLU and suggesting a lawsuit. 

8 hours ago, BooBoo Bear said:

I think we are currently discriminating against big kids and are open to a discrimination lawsuit (anyone work for the ACLU). My son is 6’7, 325. I think it’s dangerous for him to cut to get to 285 and I won’t allow it.

 

Show me any other sport where a kid is not allowed to play (I know some are difficult, but they still have an opportunity to tryout). This 285 cap is just plain wrong.

Weight is not a protected class. Unlike religion, sexual orientation, gender, ethnicity, race, and so on. Here is a link to 1 of dozens of articles you can find by simply googling "is weight a protected class." The only state currently a lawsuit could be issued and won is Michigan. It would be an extremely costly difficult lawsuit to win. A judge, if they are good, won't (or shouldn't) render a judgment based feeling or emotion and adhere to Title VII policies. 

For your son in particular given the fact they are 6'7'' and 325 that is unfortunate - at that height and weight it is highly unlikely they have an unhealthy BMI. He is also in a rare category since only 1% of the U.S. population exceeds 6'4" in height (source) and only 3.8% of the total U.S. population weighs more than 300lbs. Your son seems to be the rare athlete that would qualify for NFL or NBA type body. But for most others that is not a healthy weight. Per the National Health Institute it results in multiple issues like cardiovascular, heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, and so on. 

I hope they do not make this decision. In 2019-2020 NFL season only about 25% of NFL players weighed over 300lbs - all of them defensive line or offensive line. They are rare athletes that are also typically 6'3"-6'8". The % of population that weighed in over 300lbs was at that time 3.8% of U.S. citizens. 

Unless the athlete is in that rare category of NFL caliber athlete and body build - making 285 seems like the best interest for their longterm health. 

https://www.audacy.com/national/sports/gallery/the-nfls-12-most-dominant-300-pound-stars 

18 minutes ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

Da GOAT Indiana Heavy.  Sorry Big Wag.

When you take high school and college combined he just might be the GOAT of Indiana. Strong case for Mason, Howe, and Lee. I would imagine Mason, if healthy last year, might be a two time national champion. 

Very strong case for Parris now:

High School: 206-1 (1, 1, 1, 3)

College: 1st, 5th, 2nd (1 national title) 

World: 2019 junior world champ 

Crazy to think that Davison had a great showing placing 6 and the gap between 1/2 and 6 at heavy this year was a wide margin. Mason won I believe 10-1? 

But no doubt about it between Mason, Steveson (for those who claim him) Davison, and what I suspect will be next up Christian Carrol - the Hoosier State has been dominant at Heavy Weight recently. 

8 hours ago, GenHeavyHandz said:

Gunner Henry has put together two the best campaigns for a light heavy and he is not mentioned enough.  To put things in perspective. His trajectory is on par with Shawn Streck.  His only loses at State are to Orlando Cruz and John Purdy. They graduate.  He has 2 thirds as a light heavy.  He should be nationally ranked I already complained to Flo.  

Is this a foreshadowing of the General's lock for next season? 

On 7/14/2022 at 10:31 AM, Y2CJ41 said:

There are levels of baggage and Ferrari has quite a bit right now with the legal case against him. Add on top of that the other antics that he seems to enjoy.

 

There is no doubt a coach will take a shot on him. It will be interesting to see which coaches will take the good with the bad. Will the ones that preach about culture, accountability, etc be on the phone with Ferrari?

If college wrestling coaches are anything like NFL coaches then yes, someone will 100% take a shot on him. I agree with you there are levels of baggage. But talent = tolerance/forgiveness. Please do not misinterpret this - I do not think this is right and certain offenses should allow for due process to run its course before any team "claims/offers" an athlete - especially which, if charged, are criminal in nature. If NCAA was worth its salt they would implement such a rule.

Let's not forget Gable had accusations leveled against him, he was found innocent, or at the very least he was exonerated. Imagine if he had entered the transfer portal, I bet he would have been picked up in 24 hours from any number of coaches who preach accountability. 

Bottomline, Ferrari can help a team win. If Ohio State or Michigan add him then maybe they make a run at a national title this year and beat out Iowa or Penn State. Imagine the back to back - Ferrari and Parris. 

Though I agree with others that you can make qualifications between men/women, some disagree and that is fine. The reality is this conversation is about splitting hairs on levels of greatness. 

However, I think the qualification can be she is the best freestyle wrestler in Indiana's history, especially if the UTB is medal.

Folkstyle would be Howe (in my opinion) but there are a lot of other great ones out there - like Mendez, Tsirtsis, Lee, and many more.

On 5/31/2022 at 8:03 AM, MUSKEEWRESTLING said:

That was awesome!!  He is such a competitor.

It's the mindset that really stands out. I think of Nick Lee, Andrew Howe, Jason Tsirtsis, Cashe Quiroga (his senior year was insane), and Zeke Seltzer who didn't run from anyone in fact probably chose their freshmen year some of the toughest weight classes to win. All have that mindset of bumping up and competing against the best competition. They definitely don't avoid it. No disrespect intended to any other greats I failed to list.

I also thought Steiber was insightful as well, Mendez had a good balance of elite and average competition - which is the trajectory of most long-term elite wrestlers.

Not sure how many people have seen this yet but it is really good, worth the watch. 

1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Honestly this reasoning is why the IHSAA has not been in favor of a change. They feel that this might be an "unfair" advantage for schools in any sport that have the means to travel to big out of state events. They also have stated in the past that there is "enough competition" within the 300 mile radius that it shouldn't be an issue.

Maybe if football pressed the issue more then it could pass? I agree that within wrestling and basketball there is a ton of talent within the 300 mile rule. But having lived in other states Indiana High School football is nowhere near the level of states like Louisiana, Texas, Florida, Georgia, California, Tennessee, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Ohio. Granted I don't think any Indiana High Schools should be traveling to California for a football game these are student-athletes but typically it seems like if football presses the issue things are more likely to swing in favor of a proposal. 

Everyone missed the obvious match up:

@FCFIGHTER170 and @GenHeavierHandz!!!

Joking aside:

Parris vs Carroll 

Nick Lee vs Brayton Lee 

Bradley vs Vega/Schafer 

Howe vs Brayton Lee/Joe Lee 

On 3/25/2022 at 7:49 PM, Ahawkeye said:

C'mon! Does college wrestling really cost that much?

Serious question.

 

It can't be anymore expensive as lacrosse.

College athletics is costly. Coaches salaries, travel, and athletic departments. Athletes have to attend study table and that requires tutors. Often athletics has their own (largely incompetent) academic advisors, and so on.  Athletics is supposed to operate as an auxiliary service - meaning it is self-sustaining and should not borrow from the endowment or the universities academic budget. Sadly, this is not always the case in practice. But for universities that operate under that assumption then if a program is non-revenue generating and revenue generating sports (i.e. Men's Football & Basketball) can't sustain the cost of the other programs then they will get the axe. 

I can tell you from first hand experience its probably less expensive than Lacrosse but the wealth that surrounds Lacrosse families is on average larger than that of the average wrestling family. A lot of alumni/family donations are involved in maintaining Lacrosse. 

I don't like the "greatest versus best" argument. It is splitting hairs for ultimately what means the same thing. I think of how people on sports TV ask is "Tom Brady the greatest ever/best ever/most accomplished or so on" the reality is you can only gauge greatest/best strictly off of accomplishments/results. 

That being said my vote goes to Andrew Howe - under any label you want to give him, greatest/best/most dominant and so on. To dominate at the level of Mendez, Seltzer, Howe, Humphrey, Escebedo, Tsirtsis, Bradley, Parris, Brayton and Nick Lee, and a long list of others you have to be technical, physically gifted, smart, and so on. But each of them have earned their place permanently in Indiana wrestling folklore. 

1 hour ago, regionrat1 said:

Throw Andrew Howe in the mix - one loss to Reece Humphrey. If there was not someone named Jordan Burroughs we would be looking at Olympic medals. 

I agree with the rat, just the eye test, the gap between Andrew Howe and everyone else (regardless of weight) his junior and senior year was insane.

But Jesse Mendez has a win over Seltzer and Chad Red has a win over Nick Lee (injured or not) still impressive - so Mendez and Red have claim to the best win on their resume. And you can argue that since Howe top tier talent has increased exponentially so on paper Mendez likely had the overall tougher competition. 

Agreed it’s hard to compare but I think there is an argument some of the 3x champs trump even some of the 4x champs. Howe, Bradley, and Humphrey, Parris, and Seltzer are so good. Also, I feel like Lance Ellis has to get serious consideration. 
 

Indiana should be proud. Seems to be a golden era of top tier talent. Just appreciate it. We are watching some spectacular talent. 

7 hours ago, formercollegekid said:

I honestly wish I knew the answer to changing their mind. 

 

I dont want to get into the "class" wrestling debate.  But wrestle backs... or maybe a 24 man bracket at state (more qualifiers) would definitely help get more national exposure and recruitment to college programs.

 

Every year deserving kids go home without a chance to wrestle at state.

 

Now let me be clear I (like most) have a love/hate relationship with our single class no wrestle back system.  Its great when you go to state...place at state... or win. You know you are one of the 16 best, 8best or the best kid in the state. It makes it that much sweeter

 

On the other side tho it can be devastating to get a "death" draw. Often times kids can/have beat 3 of the other kids that go to state but they can't beat the one kid they need to in the ticket round.

 

As you get more acquainted with indiana wrestling you will see how important a good draw is. No matter how good you might be a good draw always helps... can take you from qualifier to under the lights.

 

I always feel for the kids that do everything in their power to go to state but due to a bad draw won't get the chance to wrestle. You can win regionals and be undefeated... and still fall victim to the death draw 

 

Yes I know life's not always fair.... still doesn't stop kids from being crestfallen and half depressed when they see another kid advance that they beat only because of a draw or a weak/strong semi-state 

 

All you can do is support and encourage. 

The answer to changing the IHSAA leaderships minds is quite easy… lots of $$$. 
 

The IHSAA like the NCAA has proven itself useless. The NCAA on a functional level makes more sense due  to the national scale but it clearly governs poorly. I think every state should really begin to question the validity of their athletic governing bodies. 
 

In Texas girls & boys wrestling runs concurrently. Girls must compete exclusively with girls and boys with boys. When a team enters a tournament they host both girls and boys at the same tournament. 
 

At times you’ll have 64 teams represented at a single tournament 32 girls and 32 boys. Granted high schools are much larger here so space isn’t at as much of a premium. Furthermore, a majority of districts have community football fields or athletic complexes. For example, imagine the MIC built a centrally located athletic complex to host events for all of its teams. 

Awesome match even though the camera angle was brutal.  Two amazing competitors. When was the last time (outside of Koontz) that Mendez was taken down by another Indiana wrestler? I am just guessing Zeke might be the only wrestler to have taken him down in the last 2 years. Which is insane. Vice versa might also be true. 

48 minutes ago, KoontzDaddy said:

Dad is alive and well. Just talked to him. According to the gram, he’s been working out too! 

Thanks! I updated the post. I knew someone in the Evansville area had a difficult lost. I wasn’t sure if it was him. 

4 hours ago, indypharmd said:

How's that work in southern Indiana regarding eligibility with IHSAA transfer rules? Usually high profile moves in central IN get scrutinized pretty closely... (Honest question, no cynicism intended)

My guess is since he is transferring from EMD to Castle there wouldn't be any issues private to public or vice versa given the cost factors alone.

However, going a step further 1) Hayhurst started at Castle; and 2) Coach Schaefer is genuinely about as nice as they possible come - though a fierce competitor - and wants what is best for all athletes not only on but off the mat. Coach Schaefer was an assistant at Beech Grove prior to returning to EMD, in my time knowing him there if I were ever to relocate to Indiana and pick a coach to coach my children it would be coach Schaefer.

5 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

He'll have to send his resume to

 

IndianaMatJobSearch@aol.com

 

Please include 25 references and all social media and messageboard handles.

From what I have gathered observing this website it is unlikely even the NSA/Uncle Sam can track all of Pistol Pete/Team Garcia's social media and message board handles.  But thank goodness for him, he makes the board far more entertaining. Could turn into a 25 page resume of handles. 

1 hour ago, 1prouddad said:

@Y2CJ41do ya reckon this is the address for that Holiday Inn?

Based on a quick google search it seems to be an apartment but the exterior looks like it could have previously been a holiday inn express. So it cannot be ruled out entirely.
 

(Joking before anyone gets overly sensitive).