Does Indiana Wrestling Need Divisions?

[Silence Dogood]

33 minutes ago, Zach Richards said:

I don't want my thoughts to come across as such that I want every kid to get a participation trophy.  I hate participation trophies.

 

I guess my main point that I was trying to make was that wrestling at a small school looks MUCH different than wrestling at a big school ... for a lot of different reasons.  Not that one is right and one is wrong ... just different.  And in my opinion, treating them as equals seems odd to me.

I think there are a lot of variables that make it different for each individual. 

[Y2CJ41]

2 hours ago, THECountyFan said:

Common denominator CG, CP, BB club/ feeders/ MS programs are all at the top as well. why not work from the bottom up. Very hard but proven success. 

Do you realize the number of kids that didn't wrestle in those program's middle schools or only did for one year? 

[Disco]

3 hours ago, aoberlin said:

If the high school has a wrestling culture then there are a ton of advantages. Take Bellmont, Adams Central, Garrett, and Prairie Heights for instance. None of them have issues with their numbers. I think Prairie Heights and Garrett had like 50 kids this year. On top of that, I am from Eastside High School and I know how small communities work. Most of the time you will have the same last names flowing through the school so you have a generational culture of wrestling that is huge also. Having a parent who wrestled is a big deal when the going gets tough.  The reason I started wrestling is because it was the cool thing to do at Eastside in the 80's and early 90's. You don't need a room full of hammers for your wrestlers to have success. I will say you need 2 or 3 around the same weight that can push each other. Throw on top of the mindset challenges that certain demographics have or don't have that is another factor. 

 

I didn't read the whole thread but I think someone touched on it already. Here is the bottom line now for any of us. If you want your wrestler to reach the podium in Indiana you need to have an all-in wrestler that is willing to wrestle year-round with only a little bit of off time. Times have changed no matter if we like it or not. Yes, there will be some outliers here and there that don't fit this rule. Especially at the upper weights but for the most part, it is what it is.

 

If you state that you will always share athletes with other sports because it is a small school and you don't want to takeaway from anyone's pool then 110% you are at a huge disadvantage unless your school's number 1 sport is wrestling and other coaches accept that and are okay with them possibly getting injured in a wrestling practice during their season.

 

If your whole argument is you want divisions so kids can play other sports and still have some success at wrestling then you are correct. But that doesn't make it easier at a big school to have success. That is what you and your school system have chosen.

 

Very well stated. No matter big or small, if you want at least a podium spot in Indiana, you will  need to go year round in some form. 

[Galagore]

2 hours ago, MatTime said:

Of course not. But is the small school athlete really doing everything they can when the best competitors in the state are going to multiple academy practices, getting privates, and seeking out the best competition at national tournaments during the offseason? If they are not, then why should they expect to be champions or state placers? Seems to be an issue with expectations. Train to be the best does not mean train only during the season. 

 

In my opinion, the purpose of high school athletics is to build skills, character, learn life lessons that sports teach us, and, at the highest competitive levels, prepare for college athletics. Each athlete chooses what they want out of the sports they choose to participate in.

 

Someone made a comment about what the goal of the athlete is in the sport. If they plan to go to college on a athletic scholarship, then they are likely already one sport athletes. If they are looking to be a state placer at an individual sport, then they have to find a way to be competitive with those athletes who have higher goals. Nothing is given in the sport of wrestling.

 

Just seems that the underlying desire for class wrestling is to lower the bar to allow for more athletes to reach success solely based on virtue of attending a small school. If the athlete at a small school has the goal of reaching the next level, then they have to choose to do the extra things that the top kids have been doing since they were young. 

 

If we adopt class wrestling and force the big schools into their own class, doesn't that make becoming a state placer/champion easier for small school wrestlers? This is the crux of the argument. Lets be honest.

 

Of course that's true. Has anyone denied that or given any indication that they deny that? If we didn't think it would be easier for a small school wrestler to have success in a classed system, then why in the world would we push for it? Please, don't pretend we are saying something that we are not.

 

Doesn't having a single class system make it easier for a big school wrestler to have state success? If not, then what is the harm in having two classes? The big schools won't be any worse off and the small school kids will be better off.

[Unknown Caller]

21 hours ago, Galagore said:

Additionally, everyone might say that it is an individual decision is correct. My initial argument is from the perspective of the person running the program. Should I just insist that the wrestlers keep grinding all spring and fall and say who cares what that means to the other sports teams? What if the other coaches did that to wrestling?

you can play multiple sports and still wrestle in the off season. Look at Eastside 3 years ago. They had 1 regional qualifier and the last few years they have had multiple regional champs and SQ’s. 
 

look at Adam Central. Prairie heights. Cowan. Union city. Tell city. Rochester. 
 

they produce title contenders but the big thing is your culture. If you don’t have a culture and support, you’re fighting an uphill battle that is not winnable. 

Edited March 5 by Unknown Caller

[CFleshman]

I would say Adam Central and Prairie Heights had more qualifiers and medal winners 15 -20 years ago. Both of those schools have a wrestling culture and kids that wrestle year around. Basketball despised going to a class tournament. Let's ask and see if they want a single class back. Probably not. Being able to compete in a sectional or for a state title is within reach. 

[aoberlin]

22 hours ago, Galagore said:

Additionally, everyone might say that it is an individual decision is correct. My initial argument is from the perspective of the person running the program. Should I just insist that the wrestlers keep grinding all spring and fall and say who cares what that means to the other sports teams? What if the other coaches did that to wrestling?

You make really good points, and you aren't wrong. Coming from a big school, the mindset of the coaches is to get the athletes to focus almost solely on their sport. The baseball coach doesn't care to have their player wrestle.  In a small school, there is a good chance you are friends with all the coaches and know them by name when you see them. I would imagine you have talks about each of the athletes and the their strengths and weaknesses. You share the athlete. I don't think that happens at big schools too much so there are some advantages you have if the kids do multiple sports. Not saying it wouldn't be better if they totally focused on wrestling but at least there is that. I also truly believe that, for the bigger boys, wrestling is a huge asset to football. I think if you are 165ish and above and your main sport is football but you still get some offseason and mat time when you can you can still be very successful. I do hear you when you say even your mid weights and smaller wrestlers play football, since it is a small school, so that can be tough, but it can also make them tougher. One of my best wrestlers is football first and wrestling second and I am okay with that. Currently, he is one of a few of my wrestlers with a real competitor mindset but he has been that way since sharks in minnows as a little kid.

 

My stance is that either we class the state or we add more qualifiers and have wrestle backs. Our wrestlers deserve more opportunities because of how hard they now have to work now.  I also really do see the advantage of classing for a small school and helping drive the numbers up. One of the reasons I would like to coach at a smaller school would be to get invited to Team State and be a part of that. Doing that at a 4A school while you are still trying to build a culture is a challenge. So don't get me wrong I don't disagree with you. I will keep saying it's not rainbow and butterflies in big school land. We all have battles we are fighting. Keep up the good fight.

 

 

 

[Galagore]

12 minutes ago, aoberlin said:

You make really good points, and you aren't wrong. Coming from a big school, the mindset of the coaches is to get the athletes to focus almost solely on their sport. The baseball coach doesn't care to have their player wrestle.  In a small school, there is a good chance you are friends with all the coaches and know them by name when you see them. I would imagine you have talks about each of the athletes and the their strengths and weaknesses. You share the athlete. I don't think that happens at big schools too much so there are some advantages you have if the kids do multiple sports. Not saying it wouldn't be better if they totally focused on wrestling but at least there is that. I also truly believe that, for the bigger boys, wrestling is a huge asset to football. I think if you are 165ish and above and your main sport is football but you still get some offseason and mat time when you can you can still be very successful. I do hear you when you say even your mid weights and smaller wrestlers play football, since it is a small school, so that can be tough, but it can also make them tougher. One of my best wrestlers is football first and wrestling second and I am okay with that. Currently, he is one of a few of my wrestlers with a real competitor mindset but he has been that way since sharks in minnows as a little kid.

 

My stance is that either we class the state or we add more qualifiers and have wrestle backs. Our wrestlers deserve more opportunities because of how hard they now have to work.  I also really do see the advantage of classing for a small school and helping drive the numbers up. One of the reasons I would like to coach at a smaller school would be to get invited to Team State and be a part of that. Doing that at a 4A school while you are still trying to build a culture is a challenge. So don't get me wrong I don't disagree with you. I will just keep saying it's not rainbow and butterflies in big school land. We all have battles we are fighting. Keep up the good fight.

 

 

 

 

First of all, it is great that we can finally have this conversation in a civil and open-minded way. That wasn't the case ten years ago.

 

Second, my concern for the other sports is because if a kid wants to be able to play baseball (or ____ sport), they should have a baseball team to play on. This is not a reference to wrestlers playing baseball. This is a reference to any arbitrary Culver Community student. If we small school coaches push too hard and make our kids choose, then other students will suffer due to lack of options.

 

Finally, you are absolutely right that big schools also face challenges. You are doing as much right as anyone that I am aware of, and not just for your wrestlers. You have taken on the challenge of making an entire area more competitive, and that is outstanding. Hopefully we can all continue to truly work toward functioning as one wrestling community.

[Wrestling Scholar]

On 3/2/2024 at 7:53 PM, Zach Richards said:

With the 1A/2A State Championship this weekend, it got me thinking … Is it time for Indiana to have different divisions for wrestling, similar to football or basketball?

 

I’ll save my opinion for later, but I’m curious as to what others think.

Geez Zach,   do see what you did.  @Galagore job productivity went to zero the last two days.     For sure he's been saving content for this post all season.  We dont want it to go to waste.

[casualwrestlingfan]

58 minutes ago, CFleshman said:

I would say Adam Central and Prairie Heights had more qualifiers and medal winners 15 -20 years ago. Both of those schools have a wrestling culture and kids that wrestle year around. Basketball despised going to a class tournament. Let's ask and see if they want a single class back. Probably not. Being able to compete in a sectional or for a state title is within reach. 

I can only speak for Adams Central, but the culture isn't just wrestling. The culture goes throughout the athletic department and in the classroom. I feel all 3 sports seasons try to work together to share the athletes & there has been a huge focus on the weight training end of being multiple sport athletes. There are a few wrestlers that wrestle year round, but more 2-3 sport athletes on the roster. The goal seems to be focusing on the team state duals, competing with the normal wrestling powers at sectional & regional in team standings, and then hopefully a few state qualifiers. If those qualifiers are just wrestling all year, then hopefully state placers. Though this year was abnormal with no qualifiers, it has worked out for the most part. 3 straight runner up finishes in football, 2 straight team state dual runner ups, won the conference team duals & individual tournament this year, and solid years in spring sports. Plus the prior 25 or so straight years of having a state qualifier in wrestling before this season. 

[Wrestling Scholar]

 

Yea,  small schools get the raw deal.   But does the IHSAA care?  They'll never change its part of the IHSAA "Hoosier" DNA. 50 years from now   @Galagore grand kids will be posting on Indianamat futurama on why small schools have such a low success rate at the state tournament.

 

[Unknown Caller]

1 hour ago, CFleshman said:

I would say Adam Central and Prairie Heights had more qualifiers and medal winners 15 -20 years ago. Both of those schools have a wrestling culture and kids that wrestle year around. Basketball despised going to a class tournament. Let's ask and see if they want a single class back. Probably not. Being able to compete in a sectional or for a state title is within reach. 

i do believe your first go around at a school that had a cougar mascot was at the bottom of the sectional and near the end had 4 SQ’s, 2 medals, regional team title, and a semi-state 2nd place finish . 
 

takes work to build these programs up as a coach. 

Edited March 5 by Unknown Caller

[Cmoney125]

23 hours ago, Galagore said:

 

Good in theory, but as @Y2CJ41 has pointed out, has not worked in other states. Priority 1 (on this topic) is getting to an individual classed tournament. If we can swing an "ultimate tournament" of some sort, great. But we should not forego the classed individual simply because we won't have a "true champion."

Yes we should. Get better and stop making excuses. You could always move to any state bordering Indiana if you want classed that bad. I had to live in states that had 6 and 4 classes respectively and the state tournament was crap. It just becomes the big school division matters and the college coaches just come watch the bid division guys and no one even looks at the small school champ as a real champ.

[Galagore]

34 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

 

Yea,  small schools get the raw deal.   But does the IHSAA care?  They'll never change its part of the IHSAA "Hoosier" DNA. 50 years from now   @Galagore grand kids will be posting on Indianamat futurama on why small schools have such a low success rate at the state tournament.

 

 

If wrestling is still around at the HS level and thriving enough for there to be a message boar where my grandchildren post, that will be wonderful.

[Galagore]

2 minutes ago, Cmoney125 said:

Yes we should. Get better and stop making excuses. You could always move to any state bordering Indiana if you want classed that bad. I had to live in states that had 6 and 4 classes respectively and the state tournament was crap. It just becomes the big school division matters and the college coaches just come watch the bid division guys and no one even looks at the small school champ as a real champ.

 

You seem upset. It is not my intention to upset you. I just want there to be an equitable playing field based on school size. You disagree, and that's OK. No need to get worked up about it. It doesn't even really make me that upset that you insinuate that I/we don't work hard here at Culver Community. We work hard and we don't need to prove that to anyone.

 

Do a lot of college coaches attend our state tournament in hopes of landing prospects?

[MatTime]

They are when nationally ranked kids are wrestling. 

 

I believe Purdue sent a representative to the finals and I am almost certain our D2 school had someone there. 

 

The top wrestlers are being recruited regardless of coaches attending the tournament. Most of that is based on their national level performance and the buzz around the national rankings. Something the wrestlers will only get if they are wrestling all season and doing the offseason national tourneys. 

[Galagore]

18 minutes ago, MatTime said:

They are when nationally ranked kids are wrestling. 

 

I believe Purdue sent a representative to the finals and I am almost certain our D2 school had someone there. 

 

The top wrestlers are being recruited regardless of coaches attending the tournament. Most of that is based on their national level performance and the buzz around the national rankings. Something the wrestlers will only get if they are wrestling all season and doing the offseason national tourneys. 

 

Thank you, that was the point I was driving at.

[Wrestling Scholar]

1 hour ago, MatTime said:

They are when nationally ranked kids are wrestling. 

 

I believe Purdue sent a representative to the finals and I am almost certain our D2 school had someone there. 

 

The top wrestlers are being recruited regardless of coaches attending the tournament. Most of that is based on their national level performance and the buzz around the national rankings. Something the wrestlers will only get if they are wrestling all season and doing the offseason national tourneys. 

I agree.  College coaches have so many more tools now to recruit kids.  There are all kinds of national rankings, big national tournaments, USA Wresling PIn rankings and Flowrestling videos.  Its much more of a science now to recruit as a result.   Actually, any state tournament event is now outshined and minimized by the plethora of data and video for coaches to use.    Class or no class wrestling, it really doensnt mean much to the college coach.

[MikeTython]

thumtimeth da wittle guy winth----ribalta wath 6'6 n i won via TKO...dont thsleep on da wittle guy

[MatTime]

@Galagore My issue is with the argument that I am reading in support of why there should be class/division wrestling. Your argument, I am paraphrasing, is that there should be because small school athletes are not able to focus on one sport and should not be penalized because of this because they have to wrestle big school athletes that are able to be single sport athletes. You seem to also argue that class wrestling will not hurt big school athletes so why not adopt that system. 

 

My contention is that adopting your argument would water down the state series and is not a good enough argument for why we should adopt class wrestling in the state. Accepting your argument would mean giving athletes who have chosen to make wrestling a secondary sport (I think you say this in one of your posts) the opportunity to earn a medal. It would make the smaller class division champs meaningless in a sense. 

 

Wrestling in Indiana is unique in that there is one champion crowned in each weight class. One athlete that represents the most consistent, if not the best, wrestler in their weight throughout the state tournament series. I don't think any sport that has multiple champions can honestly say they are the best in the state. They simply could not know this without a tournament that puts all of the best teams against each other like wrestling does.

 

I also take issue with the hypothetical of if every small school athlete only does one sport then that will be the end of wrestling in the state. Many schools do not offer swimming, golf, gymnastics, lacross, bowling, archery, etc., but these sports continue to exist in the state. Those that want to participate in these sports are very likely moving into schools that offer them or they are finding their own ways to excel at them through out of season practices and competitions on a national stage. 

 

I get wanting to give opportunities for kids to excel. But changing the system that crowns one state champion to one that create multiple, just for the sake athletes who choose to do multiple sports, in my opinion, is not a good enough justification or answer to the question that was posed. 

 

Perhaps we can talk about the impact it would have on transfers. If class wrestling/divisions were implemented would that lower the number of transfers that are occurring thereby strengthening small school program? Or, if we are going to make a meaningful change to the state tournament, wouldn't adopting wrestlebacks ensure that the most consistent wrestlers throughout the season get rewarded by being a placer?

 

 

 

 

[MikeTython]

life ith justh unfair...juth like indiana rethlin...juth like boxthin...

 

juth like ith dey'd had theeth gimmicks for evandah...i'd hath neva been pertheived as da bad guy

[CFleshman]

4 hours ago, Unknown Caller said:

i do believe your first go around at a school that had a cougar mascot was at the bottom of the sectional and near the end had 4 SQ’s, 2 medals, regional team title, and a semi-state 2nd place finish . 
 

takes work to build these programs up as a coach. 

 

[CFleshman]

Yes that is true. It was a great run me made. That was with 2 full time wrestlers and several others that put in extra work. With 1 of those medal winners only getting 1 full year of HS wrestling. Injuries kept him from his true potential. Maybe the next couple of years we might be able to do it again. 

[Galagore]

31 minutes ago, MatTime said:

@Galagore My issue is with the argument that I am reading in support of why there should be class/division wrestling. Your argument, I am paraphrasing, is that there should be because small school athletes are not able to focus on one sport and should not be penalized because of this because they have to wrestle big school athletes that are able to be single sport athletes. You seem to also argue that class wrestling will not hurt big school athletes so why not adopt that system. 

 

My contention is that adopting your argument would water down the state series and is not a good enough argument for why we should adopt class wrestling in the state. Accepting your argument would mean giving athletes who have chosen to make wrestling a secondary sport (I think you say this in one of your posts) the opportunity to earn a medal. It would make the smaller class division champs meaningless in a sense. 

 

Wrestling in Indiana is unique in that there is one champion crowned in each weight class. One athlete that represents the most consistent, if not the best, wrestler in their weight throughout the state tournament series. I don't think any sport that has multiple champions can honestly say they are the best in the state. They simply could not know this without a tournament that puts all of the best teams against each other like wrestling does.

 

I also take issue with the hypothetical of if every small school athlete only does one sport then that will be the end of wrestling in the state. Many schools do not offer swimming, golf, gymnastics, lacross, bowling, archery, etc., but these sports continue to exist in the state. Those that want to participate in these sports are very likely moving into schools that offer them or they are finding their own ways to excel at them through out of season practices and competitions on a national stage. 

 

I get wanting to give opportunities for kids to excel. But changing the system that crowns one state champion to one that create multiple, just for the sake athletes who choose to do multiple sports, in my opinion, is not a good enough justification or answer to the question that was posed. 

 

Perhaps we can talk about the impact it would have on transfers. If class wrestling/divisions were implemented would that lower the number of transfers that are occurring thereby strengthening small school program? Or, if we are going to make a meaningful change to the state tournament, wouldn't adopting wrestlebacks ensure that the most consistent wrestlers throughout the season get rewarded by being a placer?

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to understand my perspective. My argument is not solely based on small school wrestlers needing to contribute to other sports in order for the other sports to exist, but it is a major factor as to why wrestling at a small school has challenges different than wrestling at a large school.

 

If any of my arguments have seemed to indicate that a class system would have no impact on large schools, then I apologize for not being clear. Of course classing would make winning an individual title more challenging for a large school wrestler. However, if making things a little "easier" for the small schools waters down the titles, why does making things a little "easier" for the large schools not water down their titles? This is in reference to all titles and recognition one can earn along the way of a state tournament, not just the state championship.

 

Additionally, speaking to the multi-sport athlete and the potential erosion of opportunities, maybe wrestling wouldn't die out completely. My issue is with reducing opportunity for kids to do things that help them learn life skills and keep them out of trouble when they're not in the classroom.

 

If the small school division existed and all of those champions (now referring to the actual state champion) were considered "watered down," how does that negatively impact the large school division? And if a small school feels like they are being cheated, why couldn't they just elect to compete in the large school division? It is very difficult for me to find a group of state champions who are negatively impacted by a multi-class individual tournament.

Edited March 5 by Galagore
clarification

[Zach Richards]

I had a thought, which led me to crunch some more numbers (sorry guys).

 

Maybe the numbers I was crunching earlier were biased ... Maybe the majority of kids attends larger schools so we should expect them to win more.

 

So here's what I did ... And again, this is just data, so take it for what it's worth ...

 

1. I grabbed the school population data based on the current 6 class system used for football.  I totaled up all the students in the state to determine how many students attend each class.  For example, over 30% of the student population in Indiana attends a 6A school whereas only 6% attend a 1A school.

2. Then, I looked at the top 4 placers over the last 3 years, using the same classes as football.

3. In theory, you would expect the percentages to be about the same.  In other words, if 30% of students attend 6A schools, then you would expect 30% of the top 4 placers to come from 6A schools.

4. The data suggets (for whatever reason) that a wrestler is more likely to place in the top 4 if he is at a 6A or 5A school.  Surpisingly, 4A kids are actually worse off than 1A kids (just based on the data).

 

Maybe kids at smaller schools aren't as focused on 1 sport like kids at the bigger schools.  Maybe kids at smaller schools just haven't been exposed to see how hard you have to work to place in the top 4.  Maybe kids at smaller schools don't get access to the same resources as kids at bigger schools.  But for whatever reason, it does appear to be disproportionate.  That doesn't necessarily mean that classes/divisions are the right answer ... A lot can be said about the beauty of just having 1 class and seeing the champs wrestle under the lights.

 

But just something to consider.