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Any change of hearts?

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Good work y2. Would be interested in getting a response from Bobby Cox or faulkens

Seems really close to me for 2a and 3a. 1a is where the big difference is. Perhaps a 2 class state would work for all "individual " sports

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We've taken our team to the iron sharpens iron camp in Iowa and Illinois for the last 3 summers. Every year that we've checked in, we're asked the same question: how many state qualifiers and state champs did you bring? Greensburg is by no means a powerhouse, but we send 6 or so guys to semistate every year here recently. We haven't had a qualifier since 2008 though.

 

During the dual meet portion of the camp, coaches try to match the wrestlers up evenly. And it always seems like there is a coach from Kansas or Nebraska or somewhere else with class wrestling that is frustrated that their team full of state qualifiers has to waste it's time matching up with all of our regional and semistate guys. Then they come to find out that the indiana state tournament series is an absolute buzz saw. We once had a jv heavyweight absolutely run a train on a state qualifier from Kansas.

 

These experiences with teams from other states have really openedy eyes to both sides of the class argument. On the pro-class side, I totally see where a classed individual tournament would help improve the national exposure of Indiana wrestlers who may not be D1 material, but more than capable of going to a smaller program and competing. But on the single class side, I'd hate to give up that level of achievement that comes from being a qualifier or placer in our state. That isn't to say that being a qualifier/placer/champ in a class system wouldn't be an achievement.

 

I think the better compromise would be to find a way to allow 5th/6th placers to advance to state and give semistate finalists a first round bye. That in itself presents its own challenges as far as logistics and will surely rile up the "why don't you just give everyone a trophy" crowd, but I think that would be the best compromise between the 2 sides

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Joe,  

 

If we went to class wrestling, would it be fair to  the small school champions of the past,  the 1A giants of Indiana folklore,  the great Indiana 1A legends who were able to beat the odds.   You know those guys,  the 1a state placers and champions made of the same fabric as Hickory High and the same spirit as "Rudy".   They're the guys  whose classic framed picture you see hanging on the walls in the hallowed hallways of the small school you see in rural Americana.    Its the black and white picture of the young "David who slayed Goliath",  with a wrestler in a polyester singlet wearing tights posing in a stiff wrestling stance.  It has the block lettering typed above it "1978 State, 3rd place".   He's the guy all the young wrestlers at the school someday hope to be and have their state placing picture next to.

 

But if we went to class wrestling,   the above mentioned hallway would be cluttered and littered with new color pictures of the new entitled generation of young average wrestlers.   These pictures would be more colorful and jazzed up and catch the eye of the student body walking down the hallway.    While our older champions picture,  the one with real moxie, would be polluted by the apathy and entitlement of this millennial generation.  His picture would have to be moved to the far corner of the hallway, just like the essence of true American exceptionalism is   also moved to the corner,  so we can make room for the wave of the ribbon spoiled new generation of wrestlers.    Probably the administration wants to make another hallway to display the ribbons of the 5th place JV finishers or display the 4ft tall 3rd place trophy that is so common place.

Maybe we would put a Roger Maris style asterisk by the new pictures of the flood of watered down state placers of class wrestling.      It should say *** Class Wrestling State Placer, but wouldn't have placed when Indiana had the greatest tournament in the country".

 

If one class was good enough for my Uncle Billy or my cousin Joe,   one class should be good enough for the current ribbon generation.   You know what they say "if isn't Broke, then don't break it".   This is our culture our heritage, the one class.   Why move the cheese and upset the ribbon cart.  If other states want to water down their states with class wrestling and waste time with silly wrestle backs, then let them drink their own poison and litter their hallways with pictures of average wrestlers adorned with shiny metals and pretty ribbons. 

 

When I drink from the bar, it better not be watered down.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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We've taken our team to the iron sharpens iron camp in Iowa and Illinois for the last 3 summers. Every year that we've checked in, we're asked the same question: how many state qualifiers and state champs did you bring? Greensburg is by no means a powerhouse, but we send 6 or so guys to semistate every year here recently. We haven't had a qualifier since 2008 though.

 

During the dual meet portion of the camp, coaches try to match the wrestlers up evenly. And it always seems like there is a coach from Kansas or Nebraska or somewhere else with class wrestling that is frustrated that their team full of state qualifiers has to waste it's time matching up with all of our regional and semistate guys. Then they come to find out that the indiana state tournament series is an absolute buzz saw. We once had a jv heavyweight absolutely run a train on a state qualifier from Kansas.

 

These experiences with teams from other states have really openedy eyes to both sides of the class argument. On the pro-class side, I totally see where a classed individual tournament would help improve the national exposure of Indiana wrestlers who may not be D1 material, but more than capable of going to a smaller program and competing. But on the single class side, I'd hate to give up that level of achievement that comes from being a qualifier or placer in our state. That isn't to say that being a qualifier/placer/champ in a class system wouldn't be an achievement.

 

I think the better compromise would be to find a way to allow 5th/6th placers to advance to state and give semistate finalists a first round bye. That in itself presents its own challenges as far as logistics and will surely rile up the "why don't you just give everyone a trophy" crowd, but I think that would be the best compromise between the 2 sides

I find these reasons very superficial, that's great your JV kid beat a state qualifier, but who is more likely to wrestle in college or at least look into it? Who gets their picture on the wall at school? Who gets to parade through the school before state? Who gets a cool write-up in the newspaper? Who is more likely to give back to the sport as a coach, volunteer, ref, super fan, parent, etc?

 

Taking pride in beating someone that on paper you shouldn't beat is great, but in reality that kid that went to state no matter how horrible he was is having a way better wrestling experience than the kid that went to regional. Those kids that go to state will look back and say they had a great time wrestling. Those that went to regional won't likely think the same thing.

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I also acknowledged that class wrestling benefits those state qualifiers by improving their exposure.

 

"On the pro-class side, I totally see where a classed individual tournament would help improve the national exposure of Indiana wrestlers who may not be D1 material, but more than capable of going to a smaller program and competing."

 

I wasn't trying to use one piece of anecdotal evidence to support single class wrestling. I was saying the experience as a whole when dealing with multi-class states allowed me to see both sides of the argument, and then share that perspective.

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Making 2 or 3 classes will not help the situation.  Small schools have inherent issues simply based on their student population.  There is no getting around the fact that ultimately, Carmel has far more potential athletes for any sport than Prairie Heights does.  

 

If we want to raise the level of wrestling across the board, then there are other methods other than just inserting a multi class tournament.

 

If the goal is to get more exposure, then expand the current state tournament another round or two and bring in more of the top wrestlers regardless of class.

 

Once a classed tournament is put in place, there is likely no going back.  What if this mythical flocking of more youth to wrestling doesn't occur.  And if it does, are we benefitting the kids, the schools, or only our sport?

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He has provided mounds of data to support his claim.  It is not enough for someone to say, "Yeah, but what about this data?  I am not sure what the data is, but I am pretty sure it supports my point."  Once a person makes a statement like that the burden of proof is on him/her.

 

Haha, that's rich:}

I do believe I am the reason you got that little nickname...

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For me it's simple, in wrestling either you are one of the best or you're not. Wrestling a sport that involves hard work, talent and determination. If you are an exceptional wrestler and make it to State regardless of school size, you deserve to be there. Wrestling shouldn't have to cater to anyone or to a class system, it's the toughest sport there is! I started wrestling when I was 4 and never left the mat year round (like most of us). I put in the hard work and still never made it to State. Never once, did I consider class wrestling to be an option. I wasn't one of the best in the state and that's a simple fact. Large school, small school, podunk town...it doesn't matter where you come from, if you aren't one of the best you won't make it to State. I think that's what makes our sport so great!

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The classic "give everyone a ribbon" response, I love it.

 

I know Rensselaer has had some good success on the gridiron, are they disappointed it's only at the 2A level and they don't get to play Penn or Merrillville?

absolutely not, it was one of, if not the greatest thing for our community, but it was something our community had worked for for 10+ years when Coach Meeks took over the football program. But we are comparing apples to oranges here. Your claim is that more kids will get college exposure and it will help grow the sport if we were to class wrestling. Well, we have three kids from our 2014 State Championship football team that went 15-0. Our senior class from 3 years earlier that went 5-7 also had 3 kids go and play college football. But you can't justify classing wrestling by comparing it to football. A school like Penn who has 150+ kids from grades 9-12 will not be as severely affected by a season ending injury to say that of a North Judson, who may only get 40 kids from grades 9-12. In wrestling, you don't have that issue, you have weight classes and many "small school" kids have proven that if you work hard, you can beat the Penn's and the Merrillville's. That's not the case with team sports like football where it takes an entire team and program to beat these bigger schools. 

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absolutely not, it was one of, if not the greatest thing for our community, but it was something our community had worked for for 10+ years when Coach Meeks took over the football program. But we are comparing apples to oranges here. Your claim is that more kids will get college exposure and it will help grow the sport if we were to class wrestling. Well, we have three kids from our 2014 State Championship football team that went 15-0. Our senior class from 3 years earlier that went 5-7 also had 3 kids go and play college football. But you can't justify classing wrestling by comparing it to football. A school like Penn who has 150+ kids from grades 9-12 will not be as severely affected by a season ending injury to say that of a North Judson, who may only get 40 kids from grades 9-12. In wrestling, you don't have that issue, you have weight classes and many "small school" kids have proven that if you work hard, you can beat the Penn's and the Merrillville's. That's not the case with team sports like football where it takes an entire team and program to beat these bigger schools. 

 

Couldn't the Bombers prove that with hard work, they could compete with the the big boys?   I think you are selling them short.

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absolutely not, it was one of, if not the greatest thing for our community, but it was something our community had worked for for 10+ years when Coach Meeks took over the football program. But we are comparing apples to oranges here. Your claim is that more kids will get college exposure and it will help grow the sport if we were to class wrestling. Well, we have three kids from our 2014 State Championship football team that went 15-0. Our senior class from 3 years earlier that went 5-7 also had 3 kids go and play college football. But you can't justify classing wrestling by comparing it to football. A school like Penn who has 150+ kids from grades 9-12 will not be as severely affected by a season ending injury to say that of a North Judson, who may only get 40 kids from grades 9-12. In wrestling, you don't have that issue, you have weight classes and many "small school" kids have proven that if you work hard, you can beat the Penn's and the Merrillville's. That's not the case with team sports like football where it takes an entire team and program to beat these bigger schools. 

I get it now, since you are 2A in football the teams don't have to work hard. You only work hard in a single class sport. Just like in Ohio where those class kids definitely don't work hard, same goes for Pennsylvania, Illinois, Idaho, Wisconsin, etc.

 

I'm glad I finally understand it.

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I don't get the whole 1a needs to work harder...where did this argument come from?

 

I think most will admit that IF...IF you can make varsity at one of the better (larger...ie. 3A)wrestling schools you have a better chance of making it to state.

 

However, aren't there inequalities in every sport regardless of class?

 

I'm not sure what to answer is but I vote to class a true ihsaa team state and keep individual one class. But let's take 24 to state. Top 2 from semi state gets a bye.

 

And I'm not against classed individual but I don't see how so many people are entrenched on one side or the other and can't at least acknowledge pros and cons

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I do believe I am the reason you got that little nickname...

Oh, I KNOW you are.  You actually got an audible laugh out of me with the most recent comment.

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I don't get the whole 1a needs to work harder...where did this argument come from?

It's the wrestling mentality that the hardest worker always wins. Thus anyone that doesn't win...well must be lazy.

 

 

I think most will admit that IF...IF you can make varsity at one of the better (larger...ie. 3A)wrestling schools you have a better chance of making it to state.

The statistics show that if you are a varsity wrestler at a 3A program that you have a 1 in 10 chance of making it to state.

 

However, aren't there inequalities in every sport regardless of class?

The goal of classing athletics is to help level the playing field based on school size. Instead of schools of 250 going up against mega schools of 2000+ they now would go up against schools with 700 kids. There will never be a perfectly level playing field, there will always be winners and losers, but a classed system will help tremendously.

 

I'm not sure what to answer is but I vote to class a true ihsaa team state and keep individual one class. But let's take 24 to state. Top 2 from semi state gets a bye.

 

And I'm not against classed individual but I don't see how so many people are entrenched on one side or the other and can't at least acknowledge pros and cons

Increasing the number of state qualifiers will only increase the 3A participants drastically. Following the same data over the past 7 years we would see an increase in 3A qualifiers by 73, 2A by 29, and 1A by 10. So we now get 10 more 1A qualifiers...hate to say it, but YIPPEE. 

 

Before I continue, I'll share the 2 class stats to show my point. Over the past 7 years there has been an average of 12.5 qualifiers from the top half and 3.5 from the small half.

 

If we would go to 24 qualifiers all in one class, we would go to 19(+6.5) qualifiers in the big class and 5 in the small class(+1.5) per weight. Even if we stayed with 24 qualifiers, 16 from the big schools and 8 from small schools we'd have a better affect on the whole state going +3.5 big schools and +4.5 small schools.

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There are 14 champs, maybe we can arrange a super champion and see Cummings vs. Streck and Parris vs. Red.

Ahhh.  The classic "Let's just have one weight class" response.  I love it.

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I find these reasons very superficial, that's great your JV kid beat a state qualifier, but who is more likely to wrestle in college or at least look into it? Who gets their picture on the wall at school? Who gets to parade through the school before state? Who gets a cool write-up in the newspaper? Who is more likely to give back to the sport as a coach, volunteer, ref, super fan, parent, etc?

 

Taking pride in beating someone that on paper you shouldn't beat is great, but in reality that kid that went to state no matter how horrible he was is having a way better wrestling experience than the kid that went to regional. Those kids that go to state will look back and say they had a great time wrestling. Those that went to regional won't likely think the same thing.

Apparently you can only have a good time and make memories in wrestling if you qualify for state.  Interesting perspective.  

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I get it now, since you are 2A in football the teams don't have to work hard. You only work hard in a single class sport. Just like in Ohio where those class kids definitely don't work hard, same goes for Pennsylvania, Illinois, Idaho, Wisconsin, etc.

 

I'm glad I finally understand it.

actually the odds of becoming a state qualifier in football are lower than becoming a state qualifier in wrestling. More schools have football teams and less teams qualify for the state tournament in football than do wrestlers per weight class. I'm not sure where you got the "2A football teams don't work as hard" as I clearly stated this was a 10+ year goal that our school and community worked for. 

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I've always been on the one-class side of the argument. But in the discussion thread someone mentioned going to a camp with other states and they were matching up state-qualifying kids, and such with the Indiana kids looking downed on for being semistate participants, etc. That is the first thing that has actually made a little bit of sense to me. I assume, if other states see our kids as being second-tier wrestlers, somewhat, if they didn't make state - college coaches might as well.

Classing the tournament would certainly get some smaller school kids more college exposure - which is great. But would the kids at the bigger schools lose exposure in that case?

So you have a kid from a bigger school qualify for semistate, and he, hypothetically, is far better than a kid at a smaller school that makes it to state. That kid from the smaller school gets to wrestle and get the college exposure, but the larger school semistate only qualifier would not.

I don't see any good answer for the argument. Both sides have valid arguments.

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I will complain a little, then offer a different solution

 

Football comparisons to wrestling are ridiculous -- you are comparing a classed team sport (football) and projecting that on an individual tournament.  We do have a classed team tournament for wrestling.  

 

As far as exposure -- the best wrestlers should be rewarded, period.  I cannot see how you can justify that a wrestler at a 1A school should be exposed to college coaches over a superior wrestler from a 2A or 3A school.  Again, if college coaches want to see more athletes in one setting then expand the state finals to 2 more rounds.  You could add the same amount of mats that you would add for a small-school tournament and divide up rounds 1/2 by weight.  The most skilled wrestlers should be getting the exposure to college coaches

 

The statistics do show that 1A schools do not get a proportional number of state placers.  The statistics also show that nearly 10% of the state's forfeits are from a single sectional.  Statistics can show many things, depending on what solution you are trying to beat everyone else over the head with.

 

I know this has been hashed and rehashed over and over on the forums.  I've had an open mind about classing the individual tournament, but have moved more towards the single class side of the fence.

 

 

My solution:  Open up in-season wrestling so that athletes can practice with other schools and with academies.  Expand the state finals by 2 rounds by adding 4 mats and splitting the first and second rounds between weight classes.  College coaches could choose to attend the first day (where wrestlers may be knocked out of the tourney, but may be a great fit for some colleges) or only attend the final day where they would theoretically see the "cream of the crop"

 

Pros:  

  • Wrestlers from small schools could find area cooperative training centers where they would receive excellent instruction from skilled coaches (thus increasing the wrestling skill level state-wide)
  • Wrestlers from small schools with many forfeits would have the chance to work out with varied practice partners to alleviate any discrepencies where a school only has a 106, 132, 160 and 250 lb wrestlers
  • College exposure is given to the best wrestlers regardless of school size
  • The area training centers would provide a great transition into freestyle and greco wrestling post-season for those who would continue wrestling

Cons:

  • Would need to determine how to staff and coach at the area training facilities, and provide enough of them so that travel time isn't too big of a burden.  Could potentially rotate between a cluster of area schools
  • Would the IHSAA ever allow something such as this?  Do other states restrict wrestlers to only wrestle within their school during season, or are they allowed to supplement that with Contenders/RWA/CIA/Pride/Red Cobra/Maurer-Coughlin type training?
Edited by base

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I've always been on the one-class side of the argument. But in the discussion thread someone mentioned going to a camp with other states and they were matching up state-qualifying kids, and such with the Indiana kids looking downed on for being semistate participants, etc. That is the first thing that has actually made a little bit of sense to me. I assume, if other states see our kids as being second-tier wrestlers, somewhat, if they didn't make state - college coaches might as well.

Classing the tournament would certainly get some smaller school kids more college exposure - which is great. But would the kids at the bigger schools lose exposure in that case?

So you have a kid from a bigger school qualify for semistate, and he, hypothetically, is far better than a kid at a smaller school that makes it to state. That kid from the smaller school gets to wrestle and get the college exposure, but the larger school semistate only qualifier would not.

I don't see any good answer for the argument. Both sides have valid arguments.

If we'd go to a two class system, we'd probably be able to shorten our state series by a week...so sectional, regional, state.

 

Right now we qualify 16 for state with 12.5 of them big school kids(approximately 153 schools with 700+ students).

 

In a two class system, those big schools would get 3.5 more qualifiers per weight. So thus they'd see a slight increase. Our big school kids would still get the same exposure they get now.

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I will complain a little, then offer a different solution

 

Football comparisons to wrestling are ridiculous -- you are comparing a classed team sport (football) and projecting that on an individual tournament.  We do have a classed team tournament for wrestling.  

 

As far as exposure -- the best wrestlers should be rewarded, period.  I cannot see how you can justify that a wrestler at a 1A school should be exposed to college coaches over a superior wrestler from a 2A or 3A school.  Again, if college coaches want to see more athletes in one setting then expand the state finals to 2 more rounds.  You could add the same amount of mats that you would add for a small-school tournament and divide up rounds 1/2 by weight.  The most skilled wrestlers should be getting the exposure to college coaches

 

The statistics do show that 1A schools do not get a proportional number of state placers.  The statistics also show that nearly 10% of the state's forfeits are from a single sectional.  Statistics can show many things, depending on what solution you are trying to beat everyone else over the head with.

 

I know this has been hashed and rehashed over and over on the forums.  I've had an open mind about classing the individual tournament, but have moved more towards the single class side of the fence.

 

 

My solution:  Open up in-season wrestling so that athletes can practice with other schools and with academies.  Expand the state finals by 2 rounds by adding 4 mats and splitting the first and second rounds between weight classes.  College coaches could choose to attend the first day (where wrestlers may be knocked out of the tourney, but may be a great fit for some colleges) or only attend the final day where they would theoretically see the "cream of the crop"

 

Pros:  

  • Wrestlers from small schools could find area cooperative training centers where they would receive excellent instruction from skilled coaches (thus increasing the wrestling skill level state-wide)
  • Wrestlers from small schools with many forfeits would have the chance to work out with varied practice partners to alleviate any discrepencies where a school only has a 106, 132, 160 and 250 lb wrestlers
  • College exposure is given to the best wrestlers regardless of school size
  • The area training centers would provide a great transition into freestyle and greco wrestling post-season for those who would continue wrestling

Cons:

  • Would need to determine how to staff and coach at the area training facilities, and provide enough of them so that travel time isn't too big of a burden.  Could potentially rotate between a cluster of area schools
  • Would the IHSAA ever allow something such as this?  Do other states restrict wrestlers to only wrestle within their school during season, or are they allowed to supplement that with Contenders/RWA/CIA/Pride/Red Cobra/Maurer-Coughlin type training?

 

I can't see many coaches wanting to go practice "with the enemy" so to speak. Other states do this, but they are wrestling with teams from other classes so it's not directly practicing with someone you'll see in the state series. I really doubt I'd let my kids go train at Garrett during the state series. 

 

College coaches don't come to Indiana's state finals very often. My college coach came a couple times and deemed it a waste of time. First off you have 16 kids per weight to watch, then half of them only one time. You can go to Ohio and Illinois for 48 kids per weight, or Michigan with 64 kids per weight, etc. By practicing with our neighbors is not going to help college exposure one bit. 

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I can't see many coaches wanting to go practice "with the enemy" so to speak. Other states do this, but they are wrestling with teams from other classes so it's not directly practicing with someone you'll see in the state series. I really doubt I'd let my kids go train at Garrett during the state series. 

 

College coaches don't come to Indiana's state finals very often. My college coach came a couple times and deemed it a waste of time. First off you have 16 kids per weight to watch, then half of them only one time. You can go to Ohio and Illinois for 48 kids per weight, or Michigan with 64 kids per weight, etc. By practicing with our neighbors is not going to help college exposure one bit. 

 

Why is this any different than training kids from different schools at your summer RoadRunner club, then having them go match up at ISWA Folkstyle or Freestyle state?

 

Iron sharpens iron.  If a coach/team chooses not to send their kids anywhere else then perhaps they will be the ones that are left behind as other schools work together for the betterment of all.  Seems like the RWA kids practice together 60% of the year, why not make it 100% -- wouldn't it improve their overall wrestling level?

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