State Championships need full wrestlebacks

[Fabio Jr.]

Which whatever thats fine...

 

my arguement is that OP said

 

I love that the state championships are now determined at one meet.  It is similar to college where the best team takes the big prize. 

 

which is wrong...the best team doesn't always take the prize

 

is it going to change...no

 

i can accept that but i also know that its not the best system to determine a Team State Champion. The IHSWCA Duals are great but who is going to take that seriously? The IHSAA already hindered the sport one way they are not going to go outta their way to add another aspect to the Individual tournament.

 

in a perfect world we would have a classed team tournament and an individual wrestling tournament with wrestle backs at all levels

 

unfortunately with the way the IHSAA is ran and treats wrestling we are LIGHT YEARS away from a perfect world

[NickS]

Going off the individual rankings, this is what the top 10 looks like with advancement and placement points under our current model:

 

1st - 22

2nd - 18

3rd - 13

4th - 11

5th - 8

6th - 6

7th - 4

8th - 3

 

1. Perry Meridian 116

2. Bloomington South 55

3. Merrillville 48

4. Yorktown 45

5. Mishawaka 39

6. New Palestine 35

7. Jimtown 33

8. Cathedral 30

t9. Crown Point, Franklin, Penn 29

 

If we had full wrestlebacks:

 

1st - 22

2nd - 18

3rd - 14

4th - 12

5th - 9

6th - 7

7th - 5

8th - 4

9th-12th - 1

 

1. Perry Meridian - 122

2. Bloomington South - 58

3. Merrillville - 51

4. Yorktown - 48

5. Mishawaka - 43

6. New Palestine - 40

t7. Jimtown, Penn - 35

t9. Crown Point, Cathedral - 34

 

Bonus points were not considered, plus these projections are assuming maximum advancement and placement points. Interesting enough, Mater Dei does not crack the top 25 in either model.

[decbell1]

it happens i know Griffith won it one year when they had all their studs. fact being it should be determined by a team competition not how 3-8 kids do in an individual tourney.

 

that Griffith team made it all the way to state runner-up. they beat a lot of good teams along the way

 

 

add in all the time they had to spend signing autographs and they probably deserved a trophy!

[decbell1]

Going off the individual rankings, this is what the top 10 looks like with advancement and placement points under our current model:

 

1st - 22

2nd - 18

3rd - 13

4th - 11

5th - 8

6th - 6

7th - 4

8th - 3

 

1. Perry Meridian 116

2. Bloomington South 55

3. Merrillville 48

4. Yorktown 45

5. Mishawaka 39

6. New Palestine 35

7. Jimtown 33

8. Cathedral 30

t9. Crown Point, Franklin, Penn 29

 

If we had full wrestlebacks:

 

1st - 22

2nd - 18

3rd - 14

4th - 12

5th - 9

6th - 7

7th - 5

8th - 4

9th-12th - 1

 

1. Perry Meridian - 122

2. Bloomington South - 58

3. Merrillville - 51

4. Yorktown - 48

5. Mishawaka - 43

6. New Palestine - 40

t7. Jimtown, Penn - 35

t9. Crown Point, Cathedral - 34

 

Bonus points were not considered, plus these projections are assuming maximum advancement and placement points. Interesting enough, Mater Dei does not crack the top 25 in either model.

 

EMD is never represented in individual polls like they should be

[Unknown Caller]

Indiana will never be a true power  house state until we have wrestle backs and at least have two classes. i got to school in ohio and all of my buddies here think the current system is completely insane. how can we have a true state champ if we dont even have wrestle backs????? also classing the state would probably bring more recruiting to indiana as well

[Fabio Jr.]

Individually you want classes and a true state champ pick one you can't have both

[Unknown Caller]

Individually you want classes and a true state champ pick one you can't have both

 

by classing the state we would not only open up better recruiting opportunities for our states wrestlers but we would also be able to raise the interest int the sport with more opportunities. also with full wrestle backs we could actually give kids who have a so called "bad draw" at semi state a square shot at the state tourny. there is a reason tom brands cael sanderson j robinson john smith and tom ryan are all at the ohio state tourny and not indiana's. its time for a change!!!!

[Devils27]

Nick this is an opinion board not a fact board.  You're fighting for your position and I for mine.  Quite comical that a wrestler who's in college makes fun of that format for the high school state championships, when that is the format the NCAAs are determined by. 

 

I think you assume that a team with several champs will always take the team title.  Look at Cornell last year 3 individual champs out of 10 weight classes and didn't win it. 

[Fabio Jr.]

just because i participated in a system doesn't mean i agree on how it works. ill say it again this is just like saying well you have the most  all state kids in the state there fore you are the best team in the state here is your trophy...why do we even do dual meets anymore seems like a waste of time

[Wrestling Scholar]

Illinois does not wrestle on Sundays either.

0

 

This is just a 16 man tournament at state.  When does it take 3 days to a full 16 man state tournament??????  You only need two days to have full wrestle backs and there will be no need to wrestle on Sunday.  In reality you only need  a few more hours to run one more round.  I  might be wrong, I think Indiana is the only state in the Country that doesn't have full wrestle backs at there state tournament.  Indiana is in the dark ages on this.  I've never seen a college tournament that doesn't have wrestle backs.

 

Here's the obvious damage done by the  archaic state format that would be so easy to change.

 

1.  Kids get bad draws in the first round due to uneven semi-state competition disparity and lose there chance to place.  Kids who probably are the 3rd or 4th best wrestlers in the state do not place every year.

 

2.  Kids who don't deserve to place, do place  because they get the lucky draw.  This just demeans the title state placer.    Placing in state is partially due to the luck of the draw in Indiana.   

 

3.  Wrestlers who qualify for state deserve two chances to wrestle.  You work this hard to get the state tournament, and sometimes you get won chance to wrestle.  Parents drive to the big show and its one and done. 

 

4.  If you have wrestlebacks,  people will stay at the tournament longer.  Get an extra session,  it keeps people involved longer and spending more money at the tournament.  ISHAA could charge for another session on Friday and make more money on the gate.

 

5.  Kids choke sometimes or line up against a bad format.  They might be the best wrestler, but just wrestle bad.  Give the kid a shot at 3rd place.

 

6.  The rest of the country looks at Indiana and says what are you doing.  Its an embarassment.

 

These old school guys running the competition commitee need to jump of the conservative band wagon.  Everyone else in the country has wrestle backs and true placings.  You earn your place, not just get a lucky draw.    Lets be smidge progressive in Indiana wrestling.

 

My kid is a young freshman, and I hope he makes it to state someday.  But if he does, I will be scared to death of him getting screwed an missing out on  this relic of a system.

[jeremydeshas]

0

 

This is just a 16 man tournament at state.  When does it take 3 days to a full 16 man state tournament??????  You only need two days to have full wrestle backs and there will be no need to wrestle on Sunday.   In reality you only need  a few more hours to run one more round.   I  might be wrong, I think Indiana is the only state in the Country that doesn't have full wrestle backs at there state tournament.  Indiana is in the dark ages on this.   I've never seen a college tournament that doesn't have wrestle backs.

 

Here's the obvious damage done by the  archaic state format that would be so easy to change.

 

1.   Kids get bad draws in the first round due to uneven semi-state competition disparity and lose there chance to place.   Kids who probably are the 3rd or 4th best wrestlers in the state do not place every year.

 

2.  Kids who don't deserve to place, do place  because they get the lucky draw.   This just demeans the title state placer.     Placing in state is partially due to the luck of the draw in Indiana.   

 

3.  Wrestlers who qualify for state deserve two chances to wrestle.   You work this hard to get the state tournament, and sometimes you get won chance to wrestle.  Parents drive to the big show and its one and done. 

 

4.   If you have wrestlebacks,  people will stay at the tournament longer.  Get an extra session,  it keeps people involved longer and spending more money at the tournament.   ISHAA could charge for another session on Friday and make more money on the gate.

 

5.  Kids choke sometimes or line up against a bad format.   They might be the best wrestler, but just wrestle bad.   Give the kid a shot at 3rd place.

 

6.   The rest of the country looks at Indiana and says what are you doing.   Its an embarassment.

 

These old school guys running the competition commitee need to jump of the conservative band wagon.   Everyone else in the country has wrestle backs and true placings.   You earn your place, not just get a lucky draw.     Lets be smidge progressive in Indiana wrestling.

 

My kid is a young freshman, and I hope he makes it to state someday.  But if he does, I will be scared to death of him getting screwed an missing out on  this relic of a system.

 

I fell victim to this my senior year I won the regional and end up with Sliga the Seni state semi finals I end up getting 3rd and then draw Goldman on Friday night and don't get to place and there's multiple kids there that I beat bad multiple time placing and one went into overtime another lost 4-3 to the 4th placer I just feel like if i would've gotten the chance to wrestle back I would've gotten to be on the podium

[Fabio Jr.]

http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/wr/boys/stsched.htm thats Ohios schedule for a 16 man tournment 3 divisions 10 mats

 

Illinois Individula State Thursday-Saturday, February 14-16, 2013 3 divisions i do not know number of mats

 

Pensylvania 2 classes  Thursday, March 07, 2013 - Saturday, March 09, 2013

http://www.piaa.org/assets/web/documents/2012_Ind_WR_Schedule.pdf schedule

 

Michigan Individual Finals -- Thursday Feb. 28- Saturday March 2

http://www.mhsaa.com/Sports/Wrestling/2012IndividualFinals.aspx -2012 schedule

 

California 1 class does it in 2 days...with 10 mats granted its also a 40 man tournament....(its a wierd setup) wrestling all day Friday and saturday 9am -  which makes sense al smith(9 mats day 1, 3 mats day 2) is ran in two long tedious days add two extra round but i just dont think we have te surfaces to match thier times

http://www.cifstate.org/images/Wrestling/2012_Boys_State_Handbook_-_FINAL.pdf  -2012 State Finals handbook CIF

 

 

for perspective we have 4 mats 1 division

 

most states that I found go 3 days this of course could be done in 2 if we deicided to to go all day 9am -9-10pm both days no problem...but lose the parade of champions maybe the single mat finals

 

I agree it needs to be done im all for full wrestlebacks we just need the IHSAA to be willing to do more work...lets be honest Bobby Cox hates wrestling. which is why we dont get a waived weigh-in for our IHSWCA event after they took away the team state tournament. Id be fine with a 3 day state finals...the tougher the tourney the better for the kids but who is gonna convince the IHSAA they need to spend more time?

[Devils27]

That was a great response Nick.  Thanks for that info

[TripleB]

Kentucky... Gasp... Faint... I know it's Kentucky, but still

 

They run their state tournnament in two days: 6 mats, 32 man brackets, full wrestle backs.

 

Before they moved into their new venue last year it was 3 days, 4 mats, 32 man brackets, full wrestle backs.

[AJ]

 

2.  Kids who don't deserve to place, do place  because they get the lucky draw.   This just demeans the title state placer.     Placing in state is partially due to the luck of the draw in Indiana.  

 

 

Saying a kid who has made it through three levels of the tournament and then wins on Friday does not deserve to place is hard to swallow.

 

 

 

 

[Fabio Jr.]

BBB I know it can be done...i would rather a 3 day tournment if i could pick. and if it had to be all day friday thats fine too...my only request is that we need to keep the finlas the way they are and i think it needs to stay at bankers life..Lucas Oil would be nice tho could easily fit 6-10 mats there but we need to keep the Finals 1 mat under a spotlight and maybe its a dumb reason but thats cool...that reason alone is what made me focus on wrestling. The atmospherer is unmatched anywhere I attended 3 OHSAA state touremnets when i was in college and never once did i get the butterflies that I have when the introductions for the finals here start. there is a reason that our state finals is one of the best high school sporting events in the Nation and that reason is the atmosphere

 

again the issue isnt can it be done the issue is will the IHSAA ever be willing to change? Recent history says not likely

[MattM]

but we need to keep the Finals 1 mat under a spotlight and maybe its a dumb reason but thats cool...that reason alone is what made me focus on wrestling.

 

And maybe get someone to kill the wrap around arena lights (or at least have them with a black background) which made it ridiculously bright during the face-off and  finals last year.

[TripleB]

BBB I know it can be done...i would rather a 3 day tournment if i could pick. and if it had to be all day friday thats fine too...my only request is that we need to keep the finlas the way they are and i think it needs to stay at bankers life..Lucas Oil would be nice tho could easily fit 6-10 mats there but we need to keep the Finals 1 mat under a spotlight and maybe its a dumb reason but thats cool...that reason alone is what made me focus on wrestling. The atmospherer is unmatched anywhere I attended 3 OHSAA state touremnets when i was in college and never once did i get the butterflies that I have when the introductions for the finals here start. there is a reason that our state finals is one of the best high school sporting events in the Nation and that reason is the atmosphere

 

again the issue isnt can it be done the issue is will the IHSAA ever be willing to change? Recent history says not likely

 

I agree w/ both!!

[Wrestling Scholar]

 

 

Saying a kid who has made it through three levels of the tournament and then wins on Friday does not deserve to place is hard to swallow.

 

 

 

 

 

It easier to swallow than having a kid wrestle through three levels of the tournament, then loses on Friday and has to go home even though he likely can beat some of those other kids that won on Friday night.  Lets face it, the current system is flawed.    With wrestlebacks,  the  state placements of  3-8 would be earned and true.  Currently it is still impressive to place, but there certainly is more of element of luck involved.

 

My point is these kids worked there buts off, and have obtained an impressive level of skill.  Indiana should try to showcase these kids instead of trying to put them back on the bus only after 6 minutes.

 

Concerning the 3 day state tournament, a majority of states do it in 3 days which is not a horrible thing.    But all these  3 day states are dealing with multiple classes and have constraint on the mat space.  As we all know, Indiana has one class  and could easily complete it in two days.  They wouldn't even have to compromise on the parade of champions.    Oklahoma, Kansas and South Dakota do it in 2 days, have multiple classes and have a parade of champions.  The first day would only have to start ealier. Doesn't it start in the evening currently?  The second day would look very similar to the current status.

 

 

 

 

 

[AJ]

  With wrestlebacks,  the  state placements of  3-8 would be earned and true.   Currently it is still impressive to place, but there certainly is more of element of luck involved.

 

Why not wrestleback all the way to a true second place finish then???

[Fabio Jr.]

For being a schloar, I am with AJ your argument of 'luck' is stupid one could say that im lucky i go to a different semistate than all the studs blah blah blah the RANDOM draw for the first round made me lose....yes wrestlebacks should be there just so that you do have a chance to redeem a bad match or draw but to say a kid who got beat friday night wasnt lucky enough to get an easier match is not a good argument

[sportsfangms]

Fabio,

 

I respect your views for the most part and know your passion for this topic lies with the fact that you want the team dual format reinstituted, but when you use words like "stupid" and "dumb" to prove your counterpoint, it makes you sound for lack of a better word, "stupid".  I think you do a good job of supporting your views, no need to put down another person's opinion.  As you and many other have stated, it's a messageboard, with the intention of wrestling discussion my man, we aren't always going to be in agreement, but at the very least we can respect each other's opinions, you post often and like I said, I repect your views and your passion for the sport. 

[Fabio Jr.]

If you say something stupid i will be the first one to say thats stupid...I acknowledge the fact that we can all have seperate opinions but if I think your opinion is dumb i willl say hey you opinion is dumb...

 

if that makes me sound stupid to you thats fine my feelings arn't hurt I leave my name on my posts for a reason im not ashamed of what I say and I dont hide behind anonimity.

 

if you dont like that im sorry but its who i am and who i will always be

 

the fact that i have to even post this is pretty dumb btw

[sportsfangms]

You're a young kid, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I was trying to provide you with friendly advice, but carry on as you wish.  You clearly know all at your age.

[vito pepperelli]

Personally, I have a better reason for your responses: you're either insecure or a dick.  On second thought, you might be both....

 

If you teach/coach kids, maybe you should be a good role model and practice a little tolerance and respect for other people's opinions?

 

Or, continue to be another a-hole who thinks his opinion carries more weight than anybody else.