IHSWCA New Proposal for a new Team State

[Y2CJ41]

What if the teams dropped duals for the "State Series"? Top 8 teams in each class.

 

Example:

Quarterfinals take place on Wednesday of Week 1 in January. Top four teams in each class host.

Semis take place on Wednesday of Week 2 in January. Top 2 teams left host.

Finals take place on Wednesday of Week 3 in January. All 3 classes wrestle the Championship round at the same venue.

 

 

I think it would be easy to get teams to drop duals than tourneys. Most teams see their duals opponents in a tournament somewhere along the season. Thoughts?

 

 

It would be hard for many teams to drop conference mandated duals.

[lsk10135]

Even that would be complicated, since the duals are usually important conference and sectional opponents, necessary for determining individual seeding--and in some cases part of determining an overall team conference champion.

 

Gotcha, Our conference doesn't have a season champion, just a tourney champion. Also it doesn't have mandated duals. Overlooked those factors that other conferences use. Bobby Cox willing to ad a few duals? lol Not likely!

[MattM]

Any type of event that involves a major schedule adjustment would need to be outlined two or three years out of the start of the competition.  that way all the teams involved have an oppertunity to make the contract changes and move a few of their important dual meets to new dates.  Teams and AD just don't have the ability to adjust things on the fly from year to year very easily without causing a downward spiral for other schools.  Just one school trying to overhaul a schedule creates a large amount of issue (your teams openings, your opponents openings, gym availability, etc.)  Just imagine several schools all trying to do the same thing.  Thus an even bigger SNAFU when you consider this may be an event where the participantion may change every year.  I believe someone mentioned the IHSAA said a Team event would not count towards the schools points, but the logistics of putting it on is the real issue that will be hard to solve.  One things is for sure, if the ISWCA figures out a plan that may work the school will need to know long enough out to adjust things, or the end result will not be the final product we are looking for but plays right into the IHSAAs "I told you so" mentality.

[charger.dad]

how about making it simple....just take the top 8 ranked teams and the end of the regular season......this would be based on a ranking system set up by the IHSAA, maybe some independent, possibly the coaches association, someone that is set in place at the start of the season and tracks the rankings each week just like college football.....the last poll of the season which would come out after everyones regular duals season has ended (or possibly after sectionals) would determine who goes.......surely you would get the best teams in there and in the end, the winner would be the state champ.....i would make it a one day event on the saturday after the individual state finals.....first round starts at 8 am and the 4 winners advance, second round starts at 1pm and the 2 winners wrestle for the state championship at 6pm.....how much easier could it get than that?......no doubt you will get some complaining from the 9th and lower ranked teams saying they should have been there, but, if you were at that ranking, then chances are you aren't the one to win state that year.....

 

this causes no schedule changes for the regular season....it basically doesn't effect anything at all.....i would have the kids weigh in on friday night and even give them a 5 pound allowence over the stated weight....maybe it isn't the perfect solution but it's pretty close.....

[MattM]

how about making it simple....just take the top 8 ranked teams and the end of the regular season......this would be based on a ranking system set up by the IHSAA, maybe some independent, possibly the coaches association, someone that is set in place at the start of the season and tracks the rankings each week just like college football.....the last poll of the season which would come out after everyones regular duals season has ended (or possibly after sectionals) would determine who goes.......surely you would get the best teams in there and in the end, the winner would be the state champ.....i would make it a one day event on the saturday after the individual state finals

 

Because the IHSAA said we have to complete any type of team event prior to the start of the Individual state competition.  The only way this would be possible then would be if the even fell under the jurisdiction of a ISWA event and thus may not be able to be called a true school vs. school competition in order to comply with IHSAA by-laws.

 

 

[charger.dad]

Because the IHSAA said we have to complete any type of team event prior to the start of the Individual state competition.  The only way this would be possible then would be if the even fell under the jurisdiction of a ISWA event and thus may not be able to be called a true school vs. school competition in order to comply with IHSAA by-laws.

 

 

 

so get the IHSAA to change and let this happen the week following the individual finals......i mean seriously, this is such an easy fix to do it this way....and in the end, the team that would have won it the old (current) way, is more than likely gonna be the team that wins it this way.....this makes it easy for everyone concerned and we still have a true state champion.......

 

and to go one step further, it one of the top 8 teams descides it doesn't want to go, you take the 9th ranked team and let them in, and so on if more should for some reason not want to go....

 

what doesn't work by doing it this way?

 

[ENoblewrestling]

Having been at the meetings and seeing the debate on the board., I feel that the two are really headed in different directions.  The first thing that needs to be known is that the undertaking of an all-in or qualifier (multi-night event) was something that was not being looked at.  The size and undertaking of such an event was too much of a task and something that the IHSAA has a whole office to oversee, the IHSWCA lacks the personal to take on such a task, so any proposal that involves a qualifier of sorts is out of the picture.  The same is true for any event at the end of the season as it would be against IHSAA bi-laws and something that would not be possible for that reason.

 

The discussions that went on really hinged on a few things- 1. The size of the event. 2.  The goal of the event.  3.  Who participates in the event.  4.  Location/ scheduling issues which seemed to be the main hang-up. 

 

If we break these down-

 

1.  The size of the event.  The Hall-of Fame classic was a much smaller undertaking than the proposed team state event.  Fewer teams, fewer mats, fewer scheduling conflicts.  The Hall-of -Fame classic would change dates and offer an alternative to teams having to drop events in order to participate.  The Team State was contingent on the best teams being there, while the Hall-of- Fame is much safer as there will always be teams willing to wrestle in it as long as it did not interfere with their schedule.

 

2.  The goal of the event.  Is the goal of the event to crown a team state champion, or to be a fan friendly event that would showcase some of the top teams.  Many in the room felt that the team state would turn into an event in which the same teams were invited year in and year out, and the Hall-of- Fame classic would offer an event where more teams would be able to participate because of the fact that you can only be invited every so many  years. 

 

3.  Who participates in the event-  This is a big one.  In order to have the team state  you need to have the best teams come to it.  Would the best teams be willing to change their events around in order to participate?  Know one knew for sure.  If you look at that date there are a few big events, that several of the top schools already attend.  There was no word about if the would be willing to change the dates on their events in order to come to the IHSWCA team state.  I think that this knowledge would have made a huge difference in the vote.  If the teams around the state were willing to leave the Jan. 5th date open for a chance to come to the team state event then it could have been pulled off.,  If not your really left with an event that just claims to be the team state, even though it would have been obvious that the top teams  where not there making the event a farce.  This is something that is still not know, would the Mater Dei, Perry Meridian, Bellmont, Yorktown, South Adams, Penn, Mishawaka, etc. of the world drop the events they were in to attend the team state?  I still don?t think the answer is known and I don?t feel that the IHSWCA wanted to take the chance.  Will these same top teams be willing to participate in the Hall-of-Fame classic on a rotating basis as well?  Will a Hall-of -Fame classic be something that draws our top teams?  Most of those in the room seemed to felt that the Hall-of -Fame option would let many teams participate, and would be something that the wrestling community would support.

 

4.  Location/ Scheduling issues.  The team state would have been a big endeavor where would it be held? Would it be one location?  Several?  The proposed event would have needed 12 mats, that is a lot of space.  As far as scheduling goes it comes down to the earlier discussions, would teams be willing to leave their events to wrestle in the IHSWCA team state?  In the end this is the question that I feel needs answered so the IHSWCA could have known if their team state would ?take? or if it would be something that would not truly be recognized as a team state champion.

 

I feel that these areas would make for much more useful discussion than throwing out proposals for a team state event.  These were the two that were going to be looked at and discussed.  It was a close vote, and I think something that should still be discussed. I believe that a team state was a better option, many in the room did not.  I?m simply presenting the arguments used for and against both sides.

[Darrick Snyder]

I have waited to respond so that I could cool down and try to be politically correct.  This being said I am also going to be honest.

 

Coach Peck,

Yes I would be willing to get involved and help set up a IHSWCA Team State.  I have made that clear at several meetings and have told Trent, Cale, and Danny I am willing to be invovled.  I was an unofficial member of the Committee to save team state.  Guess I am not that popular so I was unofficial.  This being stated anyone on that committee knows I was very invovled - as I was the primary one who set up the clinic.  Trent asked me if I was willing to be on a committee to determine the selection criteria for the new team state.  I said yes to that.  I run our Team Rankings.  I attended numerous meetings in Indy.  No I was not there yesterday.  My dad had a massive heart attack and almost died last week.  Just had quadruple bypass surgery a couple days ago.  He is doing okay, but no I was not comfortable being a few hours away.  No way you could have known this so we are good.

 

Bobby Cox,

If you are reading this and laughing I get it.  I'd be laughing too.  We are a joke to the IHSAA and that's a main reason we can't get anything we want.  We can't get out of our own way.  We can't stay united on ANYTHING.  We give up, change our mind.  Major reason why wrestlebacks won't be coming anytime soon.

 

Trent and Peck,

This hall of fame thing is not meant to replace team state?  We are just dropping team state?  You can't qualify for the hall of fame thing every year?  Is this correct?  If so, it's all I need to know.  This is DUMB

 

Everyone,

We said we wanted a classed team state.  Somehow we went from that to this hall of fame thing that a team can't make it every year and it doesn't determine a team state champion.  This is RIDICULOUS.  Are we really this lazy?  The IHSAA is laughing at us right now.  

 

How did this get ?backdoored? in?  This is bush league.  Should have been brought up at the fall clinic and voted on by all members.  Why not make a post on indianamat.com that this was going to be voted on at the meeting?  Why not send a survey around?

 

Why would I send my team to this hall of fame thing?  I think we will pass.  Are we just trying to give everyone a medal?  If so, the Mishawaka Wrestling Club will kick in some money to give every team a state champ medal.  If we class team state, EVERYONE has a chance to make it.  You would be competing against schools your OWN size.  If you can?t beat a school your own size, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!  There is no reason you can?t compete.  

 

This is INSANE.  We went from classing team state to this?  At one meeting without gathering information from all of our members?   Bush league and ridiculous.

 

Snyder

 

 

[Darrick Snyder]

Busco,

 

The same teams might keep getting invited to the Team State...That is seriously an argument against it?  If the the same teams keep getting invited, it is because they are the BEST teams.  Screw it..give everyone a medal.  We are all state champs every year.  Freaking Unbelievable.

 

CLASS TEAM STATE and yes the best teams would get to go to it every year.  If a team losses to a school their size, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.  I can not believe this.

 

Tonte, Perry Meridian is really good again this year.  You won team state last year so don't bring your team again this year.  It is unfair that you are really good two years in a row.

 

Snyder

[ENoblewrestling]

Busco,

 

The same teams might keep getting invited to the Team State...That is serious an argument against it?  If the the same teams keep getting invited, it is because they are the BEST teams.  Screw it..give everyone a medal.  We are all state champs every year.  Freaking Unbelievable.

 

CLASS TEAM STATE and yes the best teams would get to go to it every year.  If a team losses to a school their size, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.  I can not believe this.

 

Tonte, Perry Meridian is really good again this year.  You won team state last year so don't bring your team again this year.  It is unfair that you are really good two years in a row.

 

Snyder

 

I agree with you. I voted for the team state proposal. Im just letting everyone know the thought process behind the change so that there can be a bit more knowledgable discussion on the topic.

[Big Hawaiian]

I have waited to respond so that I could cool down and try to be politically correct.  This being said I am also going to be honest.

 

Coach Peck,

Yes I would be willing to get involved and help set up a IHSWCA Team State.  I have made that clear at several meetings and have told Trent, Cale, and Danny I am willing to be invovled.  I was an unofficial member of the Committee to save team state.  Guess I am not that popular so I was unofficial.  This being stated anyone on that committee knows I was very invovled - as I was the primary one who set up the clinic.  Trent asked me if I was willing to be on a committee to determine the selection criteria for the new team state.  I said yes to that.  I run our Team Rankings.  I attended numerous meetings in Indy.  No I was not there yesterday.  My dad had a massive heart attack and almost died last week.  Just had quadruple bypass surgery a couple days ago.  He is doing okay, but no I was not comfortable being a few hours away.  No way you could have not this so we are good.

 

Bobby Cox,

If you are reading this and laughing I get it.  I'd be laughing too.  We are a joke to the IHSAA and that's a main reason we can't get anything we want.  We can't get out of our own way.  We can't stay united on ANYTHING.  We give up, change our mind.  Major reason why wrestlebacks won't be coming anytime soon.

 

Trent and Peck,

This hall of fame thing is not meant to replace team state?  We are just dropping team state?  You can't qualify for the hall of fame thing every year?  Is this correct?  If so, it's all I need to know.  This is DUMB

 

Everyone,

We said we wanted a classed team state.  Somehow we went from that to this hall of fame thing that a team can't make it every year and it doesn't determine a team state champion.  This is RIDICULOUS.  Are we really this lazy?  The IHSAA is laughing at us right now.  

 

How did this get ?backdoored? in?  This is bush league.  Should have been brought up at the fall clinic and voted on by all members.  Why not make a post on indianamat.com that this was going to be voted on at the meeting?  Why not send a survey around?

 

Why would I send my team to this hall of fame thing?  I think we will pass.  Are we just trying to give everyone a medal?  If so, the Mishawaka Wrestling Club will kick in some money to give every team a state champ medal.  If we class team state, EVERYONE has a chance to make it.  You would be competing against schools your OWN size.  If you can?t beat a school your own size, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!  There is no reason you can?t compete.  

 

This is INSANE.  We went from classing team state to this?  At one meeting without gathering information from all of our members?   Bush league and ridiculous.

 

Snyder

 

 

 

I would say this sums up most thoughts from the folks who still would like to see true team champs (classed or not)!!!

[cbarnett]

Oh yes - conference tourneys.   You can see why I wasn't on the committee!

 

How about this thought.  The state has wanted our individual tourney to be 3 weeks.   What if we went to a three week individual tourney - eliminating one of the rounds - but finishing the state finals on the same date.

 

With the week that is created - you could hold your dual state event.   There wouldn't be any tournaments in the way then.

 

 

I guess then everyone would get what they want - coaches, fans, state organization.   Just a thought.

 

 

Conference tournaments in The Region are two weeks before sectionals, so your thought process was logical Coach G  

[Y2CJ41]

Conference tournaments in The Region are two weeks before sectionals, so your thought process was logical Caoch G  

Does anything logical happen in "da region?"  They have stoplights that are horizontal!

[aoberlin]

Got one word for this whole situation.  "Sad"

[chambers]

What if the teams dropped duals for the "State Series"? Top 8 teams in each class.

 

Example:

Quarterfinals take place on Wednesday of Week 1 in January. Top four teams in each class host.

Semis take place on Wednesday of Week 2 in January. Top 2 teams left host.

Finals take place on Wednesday of Week 3 in January. All 3 classes wrestle the Championship round at the same venue.

 

 

I think it would be easy to get teams to drop duals than tourneys. Most teams see their duals opponents in a tournament somewhere along the season. Thoughts?

 

 

 

The IHSAA requires that we have 4 duals which count as 1 point each. We are allowed 18 points on our schedule. If we don't have less then 4 duals then we just lose the point or points we did not use on the dual.

[Short Jay]

Busco,

Thanks for the insight.  Seeing the information discussed at the meeting is very helpful.  I am with Synder on this one.  How did we go from a classed Team State to a Holiday Classic? 

[lsk10135]

 

The IHSAA requires that we have 4 duals which count as 1 point each. We are allowed 18 points on our schedule. If we don't have less then 4 duals then we just lose the point or points we did not use on the dual.

 

Someone stated earlier that a "Team Event" such as an IHSWCA State Tourney would not count towards the IHSAA team points. I believe this would be the easiest way if this were True. So can someone consider this true or false that knows what they are talking about?

 

If in fact we did not have have to count these three duals as points, then this would be the easiest way to get something started.

[Darrick Snyder]

The current proposal of the hall of fame classic or whatever it is called will not determine a state champ.  Each year good teams will be unable to attend because they were good the year before.  If this didn't infuriate me so much, I would be laughing about how stupid it is.

 

Why would I take my team?  Why would people travel to watch?  This solves nothing and helps nothing.  Determines nothing...If you want to wrestle a couple tough teams, just schedule them.  I would not travel to compete or watch this.  It's just another tournament with some good teams.  We go to those most weekends.  DUMB

 

Snyder

[charger.dad]

how about making it simple....just take the top 8 ranked teams and the end of the regular season......this would be based on a ranking system set up by the IHSAA, maybe some independent, possibly the coaches association, someone that is set in place at the start of the season and tracks the rankings each week just like college football.....the last poll of the season which would come out after everyones regular duals season has ended (or possibly after sectionals) would determine who goes.......surely you would get the best teams in there and in the end, the winner would be the state champ.....i would make it a one day event on the saturday after the individual state finals.....first round starts at 8 am and the 4 winners advance, second round starts at 1pm and the 2 winners wrestle for the state championship at 6pm.....how much easier could it get than that?......no doubt you will get some complaining from the 9th and lower ranked teams saying they should have been there, but, if you were at that ranking, then chances are you aren't the one to win state that year.....

 

this causes no schedule changes for the regular season....it basically doesn't effect anything at all.....i would have the kids weigh in on friday night and even give them a 5 pound allowence over the stated weight....maybe it isn't the perfect solution but it's pretty close.....

 

coach snyder.....what's wrong with my idea above?.....it's simple, takes nothing away from the season as it is now, involves the best teams, and gets done in one day......other than it's after the individual finals which is supposedly a no no.....and if that's the case do it during the second week of christmas break.......after the al smith of course!...

 

and i agree with your sentiments on all of this......they should have just left it as it was.....

 

[aoberlin]

coach snyder.....what's wrong with my idea above?.....it's simple, takes nothing away from the season as it is now, involves the best teams, and gets done in one day......other than it's after the individual finals which is supposedly a no no.....and if that's the case do it during the second week of christmas break.......after the al smith of course!...

 

and i agree with your sentiments on all of this......they should have just left it as it was.....

 

 

I like it.  But I think everyone is probably thinking the same thing.  That would mean the IHSAA would have to make a change and we have not been very successful on that front.  I am starting to think that IHSAA may not be the only problem that we have.

[thecomets]

The size and undertaking of such an event was too much of a task and something that the IHSAA has a whole office to oversee, the IHSWCA lacks the personal to take on such a task, so any proposal that involves a qualifier of sorts is out of the picture

 

 

Hundreds of well run tournaments happen every year. DON"T try to re-invent the wheel! Use the IHSAA rules and have sites host that have run good tourneys in the past. Let the schools keep the profit for hosting.

 

[AJ]

The current proposal of the hall of fame classic or whatever it is called will not determine a state champ.  Each year good teams will be unable to attend because they were good the year before.  If this didn't infuriate me so much, I would be laughing about how stupid it is.

 

Why would I take my team?  Why would people travel to watch?  This solves nothing and helps nothing.  Determines nothing...If you want to wrestle a couple tough teams, just schedule them.  I would not travel to compete or watch this.  It's just another tournament with some good teams.  We go to those most weekends.  DUMB

 

Snyder

 

See now I am confused.  This Hall of Fame idea id about putting a spotlight on wrestling.  Not necessarily your team, but wrestling.  You wouldnt support this, yet you want people to come watch teams at team state to support wrestling?

 

No, this doesnt replace  the Team series, but why be so negative about a spotlight dual?  I have witnesed the Basketball Hall of Fame and know how it impacts a school and the sport at the school.  Why be so negative? 

[Short Jay]

AJ,

I think the negative comments come because we have tournaments around the state that are really good and display the top teams in the state.  Al Smith, Bellmont duals, and the North Mont duals are all great meets and showcase the states best teams.  Not saying the Hall of Fame is bad for wrestling but is far from where we were a month ago at the clinic.

[BeastMode#31]

See now I am confused.  This Hall of Fame idea id about putting a spotlight on wrestling.  Not necessarily your team, but wrestling.  You wouldnt support this, yet you want people to come watch teams at team state to support wrestling?

 

No, this doesnt replace  the Team series, but why be so negative about a spotlight dual?  I have witnesed the Basketball Hall of Fame and know how it impacts a school and the sport at the school.  Why be so negative? 

 

 

Because this is replacing team state! This is a waste of time....as numerous people have pointed out there is already a slew of "showcase" or "spotlight" meets.... they are called Al Smith, Belmont duals, MD Holiday tourney etc. As suggested above..invite the top 8 in each class for one day of wrestling otherwise dont waste anyones time

[Darrick Snyder]

AJ,

 

NO i would not support this because it serves NO purpose.  A showcase dual tournament??? Are you kidding me?  Come to calumet duals, come to bellmont duals, go watch North Montgomery Duals.  Come watch Mishawaka vs. Penn or Perry vs. Cathedral, etc.  This does NOTHING for the sport of wrestling because it determines NOTHING new.  It does not crown the best team because you can't go every year which is absolutely dumb and one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.  Screw it - don't even keep track of points at Individual State.  We are all state champs every year.  You were too good the last few years so you can go to the hall of fame thing the next year...STUPID.  We and most teams already wrestle in good duals, dual tournaments, and invitationals.  No I would have absolutely NO interest in ever sending my team.  This is DUMB because it determines NOTHING.  We already wrestle in tough meets and duals that are "showcase" duals or whatever you want to call it.  I can't believe anyone is buying into this OR THE WAY THIS WAS PRESENTED!!!  Why are we members of the IHSWCA when VERY few of us had any input on such a big decision?  NO SURVEY...This idea was not even brought up at the Fall Clinic.  This is NOT okay...I don't what irritates me more - this dumb idea or the way it seems to be pushed through without being voted on by the membership.  NOT professional, productive...and certainly does not feel honest.

 

The IHSAA IS LAUGHING AT US

 

Snyder