infowrestling Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I wahoo you just for the debbie downer reference......great sketch on snl. Debbie Downer and Negative Nancy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 There is a Debbie Downer taxi cab in St. Louis. Be sure to wear your tin foil hat also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrick Snyder Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I am very curious see what happens next year... Would not be surprised to see any of the following: 1.) Team State gone 2.) Everything stays the same - at least for another year 3.) Team State series finishes before individual competition. It will be interesting... Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrecoCoach Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I am very curious see what happens next year... Would not be surprised to see any of the following: 1.) Team State gone 2.) Everything stays the same - at least for another year 3.) Team State series finishes before individual competition. It will be interesting... Snyder 1.) I hope not 2.) Absolute worst case I'd be willing to accept 3.) Since it looks like classes won't be an option, this would be the best case scenerio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I wahoo you just for the debbie downer reference......great sketch on snl. WINNING!!......DUH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I am very curious see what happens next year... Would not be surprised to see any of the following: 1.) Team State gone 2.) Everything stays the same - at least for another year 3.) Team State series finishes before individual competition. It will be interesting... Snyder The question is, which of these scenarios will be the easiest/best avenue to lead to getting a classed team series? Personally keeping the same team series in any fashion will keep us on the same road we have been on. If we take scenario 1 it may be a detour, but I think it will get us to the end result quicker and in a cleaner fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Here is my educated guess on the situation. The IHSAA has made their decision on what will happen and this survey is a formality. The answer to the first question will be overwelmingly no( > 70%) and thus the IHSAA will state that the coaches, ADs and principals want change. Thus they will inact their plan they had from the beginning. You hit the nail on the head. Any survey can be constructed to get alot of answers you want to get. It is kind of like the surveys our Republican Legislators sent out concerning education. Most of us do not like the current format, but I would love to see the response if there was a question that ask.....if it comes down to the current format or nothing which would you choose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 The IHSAA for about five years has stated they do not like the team state series. Two years ago they changed the format to only sectional champions advance and they have made other small changes in the past five years. Many people before me were calling to class at least team state and it fell on deaf ears. We should have been making a movement for change BEFORE the IHSAA stated there was going to be change. Instead the coaches assocation has been happy with the status quo and not done anything in terms of the state series. The Coaches Association has actually been calling for the Team portion of the Tournament to be classed from the time the Dual Tournament was initiated. I have never been in a meeting about the Dual Tournament when "classing" it was not brought up. I also know that various plans have been sent to them that included very positive ways to run the Dual Tournament in a "Class" format, and they have been ignored. I guess i owuld say that you can only be pro-active when actiivity is allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstemv81 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Any feedback on MattM's idea of having a small school spin off from the current team state series? Sectional champs advance, and winners continue on in the traditional team state tournament, while eligible small schools who get defeated along the way would spin off to a small school bracket to continue on in their own small team state finals. Top small school that doesn't win their sectional would divert to the small team state bracket and move on in the series. This idea could work. Those who want a true team state champ get what they want, and small schools get two bites at the apple - win a true team state title or, when knocked out, get a meaningful chance to continue to a small class state title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Any feedback on MattM's idea of having a small school spin off from the current team state series? Sectional champs advance, and winners continue on in the traditional team state tournament, while eligible small schools who get defeated along the way would spin off to a small school bracket to continue on in their own small team state finals. Top small school that doesn't win their sectional would divert to the small team state bracket and move on in the series. This idea could work. Those who want a true team state champ get what they want, and small schools get two bites at the apple - win a true team state title or, when knocked out, get a meaningful chance to continue to a small class state title. Close, but my plan would completely seprate the school by class and would only let the lower classes compete in the large division if they choose too. Not just from the large to small when eliminated. Here was my original idea for a quick switch since it was brought up. It was designed under the impressing the IHSAA wanted to do as little work as possible with changing or organizing things from their current set up. Obviously, if the event (classed or not) was moves to the middle of the season a huge format change for how most teams have schedules would need to happen. I would involve slight sectional realignment, but not much and everything else would remain relitively the same as it is now. In a 3 Class Division Sectionals consists of: 3 to 5 Teams from large class division 3 to 5 Team from middle class division 3 to 5 Team from small class division In a 2 Class Divsion (But I don't think this may be broke up enough to realistally sustain and grow the sport through the team tournament) 5 to 7 teams from large class division 5 to 7 team from small class division The actually breakdown whould depend on what teams are close to that area. Some class divisions would obviously have more teams than others from sectional to sectional. Award a sectional title to whatever team has the most sectional tournament point in each class division. You may have came in 4th over all but if you are the top school from class 2A you are the class 2A sectional champion. If decided the Porochrial and Private school have some type of student population multiplier or are just simply moved up one division. Have each class team winner move on their own team regional matches. Have the top individuals reguarless of class move on to the individual team tournament. In most cases we will still see many of the same teams go to state every year in each of the divisions. But in the middle and smaller division things will change more. Plus in many areas you will see more changes from year to year in who win the sectional and regional titles. That means more coaches, schools schools and communities can use it as publicity for the sport. This will help team state grow the sport at the lower levels more than it does now. All of which while still keeping a individual state tournament as one class. The more teams in the team event the better chance of an improved attendence for the IHSAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Close, but my plan would completely seprate the school by class and would only let the lower classes compete in the large division if they choose too. Not just from the large to small when eliminated. Here was my original idea for a quick switch since it was brought up. It was designed under the impressing the IHSAA wanted to do as little work as possible with changing or organizing things from their current set up. Obviously, if the event (classed or not) was moves to the middle of the season a huge format change for how most teams have schedules would need to happen. I would involve slight sectional realignment, but not much and everything else would remain relitively the same as it is now. In a 3 Class Division Sectionals consists of: 3 to 5 Teams from large class division 3 to 5 Team from middle class division 3 to 5 Team from small class division In a 2 Class Divsion (But I don't think this may be broke up enough to realistally sustain and grow the sport through the team tournament) 5 to 7 teams from large class division 5 to 7 team from small class division The actually breakdown whould depend on what teams are close to that area. Some class divisions would obviously have more teams than others from sectional to sectional. Award a sectional title to whatever team has the most sectional tournament point in each class division. You may have came in 4th over all but if you are the top school from class 2A you are the class 2A sectional champion. If decided the Porochrial and Private school have some type of student population multiplier or are just simply moved up one division. Have each class team winner move on their own team regional matches. Have the top individuals reguarless of class move on to the individual team tournament. In most cases we will still see many of the same teams go to state every year in each of the divisions. But in the middle and smaller division things will change more. Plus in many areas you will see more changes from year to year in who win the sectional and regional titles. That means more coaches, schools schools and communities can use it as publicity for the sport. This will help team state grow the sport at the lower levels more than it does now. All of which while still keeping a individual state tournament as one class. The more teams in the team event the better chance of an improved attendence for the IHSAA. 1A might be the only division with turnover. 2a would come down to the Bellmont/Yorktown winner vs. EMD (maybe throw in a Jimtown every few years). 3a would come down to about 4-5 teams every year (LN, Perry, Crown Point, Mishawaka, Penn) I'm not seeing how anything other than 1a would be affected by classing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 1A might be the only division with turnover. 2a would come down to the Bellmont/Yorktown winner vs. EMD (maybe throw in a Jimtown every few years). 3a would come down to about 4-5 teams every year (LN, Perry, Crown Point, Mishawaka, Penn) I'm not seeing how anything other than 1a would be affected by classing. I think you might be underestimating the impact that winning a sectional, regional, or semistate would have on most programs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I think you might be underestimating the impact that winning a sectional, regional, or semistate would have on most programs I would agree that reguardless of how many if any classes we have in a team competition a team winning sectional, regional, and even making state has be built up to mean something more important to some of the teams, schools, and communities than what has be made of it in the past. Clearly the most growth from this can come from the smaller close-knit communities but larger school district that have a emphasis on school and sport can gain from it to. That is the only way the sport will grow from a team competition. Currently, it seems some schools are to concerned about only the finalist and lose sight of what a big accomplishment it can be to contend for a sectional title in this tough sport. We do see this pride the team, school, and community has when competiting for just a sectional title with some sports. Classing the team portion of the event may help some people put that thinking back in perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 I think you might be underestimating the impact that winning a sectional, regional, or semistate would have on most programs A Sectional, or Regional Championship which, under the old format, were possibilities for smaller schools can mean alot in terms of Program recognition and growth. Under the old format where the Individual Tournament was all we had there were 85 trophies given in Wrestling. Admittedly, all 85 did not go to different teams, but that was 85 opportunities for Teams to take advantage of in terms of newspaper coverage, and school annnouncements, and the like. When we wnet to the Dual Format we went from 85 opportunities for Championships down to 53 and then when they deleted the Regional round of the Dual Tournament 3-4 years ago we went down to 41 opportunities. I am not about making sure everyone gets a trophy (or medal), but the more opportunity we have to get wrestling success in front of schools and communites the more chance we have to grow the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 A Sectional, or Regional Championship which, under the old format, were possibilities for smaller schools can mean alot in terms of Program recognition and growth. Under the old format where the Individual Tournament was all we had there were 85 trophies given in Wrestling. Admittedly, all 85 did not go to different teams, but that was 85 opportunities for Teams to take advantage of in terms of newspaper coverage, and school annnouncements, and the like. When we wnet to the Dual Format we went from 85 opportunities for Championships down to 53 and then when they deleted the Regional round of the Dual Tournament 3-4 years ago we went down to 41 opportunities. I am not about making sure everyone gets a trophy (or medal), but the more opportunity we have to get wrestling success in front of schools and communites the more chance we have to grow the sport. well put coach peck..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharmon01 Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I understand where everyone is coming from thinking class wrestling and more schools and kids winning championships will grow the sport. I just don't buy into it. Lets be honest and just say we want a better chance to get a medal, not this is going to make wrestling the sport every kids wants to participate in. Wrestling is such a tough sport, it just does not fit for most kids in our society today. If winning sectionals or regionals or semi-states (I can't say state because we haven't done that) will increase numbers, I will tell you it has not helped us. We still fight to fill a team every year - and we are a "5 A school" If having state place winners or state champions will increase numbers, I will tell you it has not helped us. We still fight to fill a team every year - and we are a "5A school" You say it will increase college scholarship opportunities - from all the college coaches I have talked to they look at the kids who wrestle at Fargo, it doesn't matter if they are a 3-4 time 1A champ or 3A champ. They said kids who wrestle at Fargo show they are committed. I really don't care if we go class in team, but I don't want class in the Individual tournament. I just don't buy in to the idea that class will increase the numbers of kids who wrestle in Indiana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 I understand where everyone is coming from thinking class wrestling and more schools and kids winning championships will grow the sport. I just don't buy into it. That is because you look at the issues with blinders on. You see it from Castle's perspective only and how any change will affect your program. Maybe if my school was twice as big as every other school in my sectional and if my school was winning sectionals for ten straight years by over 100 points I would want to keep the status quo too. Most schools are not in that position. Lets be honest and just say we want a better chance to get a medal, Again, this is said by a coach whose school is twice the size as every other school in their sectional and have won 10 straight sectionals most by huge amounts of points. Castle is virtually assured a sectional trophy every year and the huge enrollment disparity is a key reason why. If castle competes with Reitz or even Evansville Central or Bloomington South or Jefferesonville or Jasper, castle might not be getting their trophy every year. The status quo scale is currently heavily tipped to Castle's side. All class advocates wish for is a fairer system for which to compete for things like sectional trophies. The ability to compete for a sectional trophy is what class advocates believe will aid in getting more numbers out. If all you take out of this is that class advocates want a better shot at a medal, so be it, but I think that perspective is narrow, short sighted, selfish and does not address the overall health of the sport statewide. not (that) this is going to make wrestling the sport every kids wants to participate in. Wrestling is such a tough sport, it just does not fit for most kids in our society today. This is a blatant misinterpretation of what class advocates have said. Every wrestling coach knows wrestling is a tough sport and not for everyone but to say that class advocates have said classing will "make wrestling the sport every kid wants to participate in" is pure hyperbole on your part. My school currently has 10% of its male enrollment wrestling and we have 15 kids on the team. Castle has between 1 and 2 percent of its male enrollment on the team and has almost 30 on its state roster in 2010. I think we can agree that the ability to deal with injuries and other unforseen issues is much easier with 30 on the team then with 15 if we are competing with each other for a sectional If winning sectionals or regionals or semi-states (I can't say state because we haven't done that) will increase numbers, I will tell you it has not helped us. We still fight to fill a team every year - and we are a "5 A school" If having state place winners or state champions will increase numbers, I will tell you it has not helped us. We still fight to fill a team every year - and we are a "5A school" If this is your experience that is disappointing that you have not been able to parlay your team success into more numbers but I have seen team success equate to more numbers too many times in too many sports to be persuaded by the Castle example. You say it will increase college scholarship opportunities - from all the college coaches I have talked to they look at the kids who wrestle at Fargo, it doesn't matter if they are a 3-4 time 1A champ or 3A champ. They said kids who wrestle at Fargo show they are committed. Class advocates have consistently stated that it will increase college wrestling opportunities. You might be thinking of the high division one when you talk about fargo but D2, D3 and NAIA are not recruiting fargo all americans. Frankly, the entire statement sounds silly because Purdue has signed 2 castle products recently that have a grand total of zero fargo appearances. I doubt that you are questioning the commitment of these two just because they didn't go to fargo? I would argue that the D2, D3, and NAIA wrestling schools are MUCH more likely to recruit kids earlier in their high school careers if they have success in classed state tournament. As I have said before, many kids only have success their senior year that gets noticed by colleges and by that time it is too late. I really don't care if we go class in team, but I don't want class in the Individual tournament. Your statements at the beginning of your post seem to say otherwise. It appears that you very much prefer things as they are right now or maybe how they were before the team state series. I just don't buy in to the idea that class will increase the numbers of kids who wrestle in Indiana. I think you are wrong. Not only do I think that that numbers will increase but I think revenue at state tournament would increase as well. It's a win win for wrestling as a whole in the state. It has happened in oregon recently and I think it would happen in Indiana as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrick Snyder Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Am I missing something??? How does having Team State affect the difficulty of any team winning a sectional...or a conference for that matter. Sectional championships for teams are decided the same way they were under the old format... Why are people acting like having team state makes it harder for a small school to win a sectional??? It is the same as it always has been.... Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gstemv81 Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Coach Snyder, You're right that team state in its current form does not change sectional scoring. I think what you're missing is that class supporters advocate completely realigning the sectionals just like class basketball. In that event be prepared to travel long distances to meet your new faraway sectional "rivals." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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