tskin Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 If you havent heard the IHSAA sent out a email last week that they will be conducting their own survey about what the coaches want to do with Team State. The IHSWCA has already conducted a survey and I will be posting the results here. If the coaches minds change from these results in a few short months I will be amazed! So not sure why they didn't just ask to see our results, especially since they both are being done through the same survey service. Go Figure. We had 269 completed survey's so we still had a small number of programs not complete surveys but had a overwhelming majority. I fear the IHSAA survey will have a completed survey from every program but wonder how many will actually be done by the wrestling coaches?! Question 1. Which of the following are you in favor of using to determine the Indiana Team State Wrestling Champion? Dual Tournament: 76.2% 205 Individual Tournament: 23.8% 64 Question 2. Do you think the Dual Tournament should be classed? Yes: 75.5% 203 No: 24.5% 66 Question 3. Without thought of the Dual Tournament, do you feel that the Individual Tournament should be classed? Yes: 28.3% 76 No: 71.7% 193 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntegratedCarp Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Very interesting. Thank you for sharing. I have coached at size-wise a 5A football school, a 3A school and a 2A school. So, my experience is quite broad. One thing I believe many fail to see is that classing team state is directly linked to classing individual state for most small to moderate size programs. That is not to say we should give up on team state. Just rather the results still show a wide disparity between the class team state vs. class individual state crowd. Because of that, I think many small programs will be against classing team state until they get a classed individual state. The fear is the big programs will just go back to ignoring the problem again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 What is the breakdown of the results by class? It makes no sense that this is not broken down by class to see where the people that are truly affected by this fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Y2 if you send me a complete list of what schools are classed what i would be happy to go through results and give a breakdown. I have what schools voted for what so it won't be hard to give a class breakdown. Email me the list to tskinner@madison.k12.in.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Ok I have broken it down by the three class division that Y2 sent me. HERE ARE OVERALL, CLASS A, CLASS AA, AND CLASS AAA Question 1. Which of the following are you in favor of using to determine the Indiana Team State Wrestling Champion? Overall Class A Class AA Class AAA Dual Tournament: 76.2% 205..........78.75%..........67.42%..........81.25% Individual Tournament: 23.8% 64..........21.25%..........32.58%..........18.75% Question 2. Do you think the Dual Tournament should be classed? Yes: 75.5% 203..........81.25%..........80.89%..........64.59% No: 24.5% 66 ..........18.75%..........19.11%..........35.41% Question 3. Without thought of the Dual Tournament, do you feel that the Individual Tournament should be classed? Yes: 28.3% 76..........31.25%..........29.21%..........25% No: 71.7% 193..........68.75%..........70.79%..........75% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Question 2. Do you think the Dual Tournament should be classed? Yes: 75.5% 203..........81.25%..........80.89%..........64.59% No: 24.5% 66 ..........18.75%..........19.11%..........35.41% Thanks, there is quite a disparity there between 3A and the other two classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edb41 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Who determined these possible classes, and what are the enrollement levels for each? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Yes I was suprised at how all three classes were similar on if the thought individual state should be classed. And this also shows when broken down by class the majority in every class wants the same thing for Indiana Wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 The three classes are what several have come up with and also what Indianamat uses for class rankings. Not sure of a set enrollment more of a similar amount of teams divided per class I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Approximate class division by enrollment numbers. 3A - 1000-4000+ 2A - 560-1000 1A - 0-560 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 So pretty much things are at an empasse. The coaches (big and small) want to keep the individual tournament one class but change the team tourney to a classed event which, from what I've read on this site, the IHSAA will never go for (classing one element of a sport but not all of it). So where does that leave things? Looks like everyone loses. The overall class supporters can't get enough support from the members of the IHSWCA to class everything and the team class supporters can't let go of the individual tourney being single class which will doom them in the eyes of the IHSAA. I do have a sincere question for Y2, with no smart ass overtones at all. Were you surprised to see that an overwhelming majority of small school coaches supported single class for individual state? Honestly, I was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 No smart ass overtones, are you serious? I was slightly surprised by it, but not too much. I was maybe expecting 50% at the very most in favor of classing the individual side. I was more surprised at how the percentages changed very little across the classes and expected the numbers to vary much like the team classing question. Honestly people in Indiana love to base their views on nostalgia and there is still a big group of people who think classing any sport is bad. They are living in the 1950's time of Milan and Hoosiers. I do not know how you change that attitude and make people realize classing basketball and the other sports has helped them and helped the smaller communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 No smart ass overtones, are you serious? Yes, I'm serious. I was as legtimately surprised as you were by the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I do not know how you change that attitude and make people realize classing basketball and the other sports has helped them and helped the smaller communities. It takes about 1.5 generations. Those that voted against the classing of the team series probably think cell phones are a fad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Honestly people in Indiana love to base their views on nostalgia and there is still a big group of people who think classing any sport is bad. They are living in the 1950's time of Milan and Hoosiers. I do not know how you change that attitude and make people realize classing basketball and the other sports has helped them and helped the smaller communities. How has it helped? People say it hasnt hurt it, but how has it helped?? And no, I m not some nostaLgia loving fool. Its not like there has been a huge influx in basketball at the highest level . How exactly are classes helping volleyball? Same teams dominate those classes every year. There has not been a huge rise in volleyball team success. Where is this so called proof that it has helped the sports. And once again, how are the big schools and medium schools who have the same problems as the small schools going to gain anything, or is it all about the small schools? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 And once again, big schools have one variable small schools do not have. Bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 So pretty much things are at an empasse. The coaches (big and small) want to keep the individual tournament one class but change the team tourney to a classed event which, from what I've read on this site, the IHSAA will never go for (classing one element of a sport but not all of it). So where does that leave things? Looks like everyone loses. The overall class supporters can't get enough support from the members of the IHSWCA to class everything and the team class supporters can't let go of the individual tourney being single class which will doom them in the eyes of the IHSAA. I do have a sincere question for Y2, with no smart ass overtones at all. Were you surprised to see that an overwhelming majority of small school coaches supported single class for individual state? Honestly, I was. Well your incorrect in thinking the IHSAA would class everything if we wanted everything classed. They have stated they are strongly against classing any INDIVIDUAL sport. ie swimming, wrestling, track, golf, etc. So any sport where you can advance as a individual and as a team they have said they won't class. Its a uphill battle for us to propose classing team state. Hopefully we can save it first then once that is done try to get classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Well your incorrect in thinking the IHSAA would class everything if we wanted everything classed. They have stated they are strongly against classing any INDIVIDUAL sport. ie swimming, wrestling, track, golf, etc. So any sport where you can advance as a individual and as a team they have said they won't class. Its a uphill battle for us to propose classing team state. Hopefully we can save it first then once that is done try to get classes. Thanks for pointing out my incorrectness. Are you one of my kids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 HAHA I hope not. If I am your not a spring chicken anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julio Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 It would probable make more sense to the common person if the percentage totals added up to 100% or at least close to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 They add up if they are added vertically, not horizontally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 How has it helped? I mean real stuff not just your musings. Again if you want anecdotal evidence I can trade that with you. How has it helped? 1. Good coaches stay at smaller schools due to not having to move to a much larger school for more success. This has also happened a great deal in football. To expand further, coaches want to win just as bad as the athletes and they will move into a position in which they have the best chance for success. In a one class system that means moving to a bigger school. In a classed system it is much easier for them to stay at a smaller school because they can still have success at that level due to the classes. 2. Greater exposure for the small schools and their athletes, their community and coaches. Our girl's basketball team was ranked 2nd in the state this year and the sense of community pride and excitement there was surrounding them was great. The kids and coaches did not care that it was not single class. 3. Small schools have greater pride in their teams year in and year out, not once every 10-20 years when they might have a shot at a sectionl title in a one class system. 4. It has stabilized attendance at the state finals. Attendance was dropping drastically in the post Damon Bailey years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Willmann Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 At the risk of hi-jacking this thread: I have the debate with my coaching staff all the time about class wrestling. I make no bones about it that I am a supporter of class wrestling at every level. I will not sit here and mock anyone who has an opinion otherwise. That is why it is an opinion. You are allowed to have it. As a wrestling community, we have the greatest spectacle for any state tournament. Shut off the lights and have two wrestlers battle for a state title. It is amazing. It's my favorite weekend of the year. Would going to class wrestling at every level, team and individual ruin the spectacle of our state tournament? Yes. There is no way we could have as amazing of an individual tournament with three matches going at once, or even just two. It just wouldn't happen. I'm not afraid to admit that. Would it water down the level of competition at our state tournament? Probably. Having said those things: Would the depth of overall wrestling in our state (outside of the state tournament) be better? More than likely. Would our studs in Indiana still be studs? Yes (You can't tell me that Jason Tsirtsis would be less of a wrestler if he won in a class system.) Having more opportunity for our wrestlers to succeed is only going to grow our sport. Would it be at our expense as fans, yes. The aura of the state wrestling tournament would never be the same. You can't replicate one match under the lights in front of 10,000 fans. I would be willing to give that up if our sport grew. We have to accept that having class wrestling helps several states. The states that do very well at NCAA's are states that have class wrestling. Most people will bring up the argument that they are much larger states than we are. If that is the case, then why is California (everyone's go to point as the largest state with 1 class) not killing everyone in NCAA qualifiers? The top two states for NCAA qualifiers last year were PA and OH. Both of which have class wrestling. They are considerably larger than Indiana, both almost doubling our population. California though has about 12,000,000 more people than PA and OH combined. So what is the difference? Again, I have nothing the gain here. I coach at a 4A high school that is larger than most schools in the state. We aren't a huge high school, with about 1300 kids, but we aren't the same size as everyone else. I will be fine whatever we decide. I just think that class wrestling is the best thing that could happen to our sport in this state, even if it does take away from how amazing our state tournament is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 We have to accept that having class wrestling helps several states. The states that do very well at NCAA's are states that have class wrestling. Most people will bring up the argument that they are much larger states than we are. If that is the case, then why is California (everyone's go to point as the largest state with 1 class) not killing everyone in NCAA qualifiers? The top two states for NCAA qualifiers last year were PA and OH. Both of which have class wrestling. They are considerably larger than Indiana, both almost doubling our population. California though has about 12,000,000 more people than PA and OH combined. So what is the difference? Maybe the best athletes in PA and OH wrestle, but in California they don't. California, Texas, and Florida are the best football states, but not wrestling. Maybe those athletes just aren't interested in wrestling as they are in more midwestern states, where wrestling tends to be more popular. I think that's part of the problem in Indiana. We have very good athletes who are willing to sit on the bench in basketball, rather than put in the time and be pretty decent in wrestling. Other sports are just easier. I think there is a different mindset in states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Iowa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefreak104 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 i love how the kids don't get to decide. coaches will have their own opinoins. i still believe the smaller school kids would want classed wrestling of some sort, maybe not 3 classes but 2. i don't agree that the coaches should be the dividing factor, i know a handful of schools coaches that aren't even qualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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