How can Freestyle/Greco improve in INDIANA?

[WaltHarris]

I would like to hear your suggestions for how we can improve Freestyle & Greco in Indiana?

 

I've been involved since the 1970s.  It seemed like Indiana's number of kids at FS/GR tourneys peaked in the 90s.  We still have good, but not great attendance and we still have plenty of kids wanting to go to Fargo.  Please keep in mind, Indiana has zero effect on what FILA is going to change or not change about the international rules.

 

But how can we make things better and get more kids 18 & under wrestling FS/GR?

[WaltHarris]

Here is my suggestion: I would request the ISWA commence running FS or GR tourneys right after HS team state.

 

Prior to 1998, (which is around the time I retired) it was much easier for a coach to tell that kid who LOST @ sectionals/regionals/ss and was motivated to improve, "Hey, FS/GR starts next week.  Let's start training."

 

Over the last 12 years since we have implemented folkstyle as part of the ISWA schedule, there is typically 4-6 weeks between end of HS wrestling season and the start of FS/GR. 

 

Your typical HS kid gets out of the wrestling practice routine and back into the going home after school and tv-watching routine.  That makes it tough for a coach to get that kid's engine restarted and have them wrestling again after 4-6 weeks of downtime.

 

Presently, I see very little motivation for HS kids to wrestle in those 3 weeks of iswa folkstyle tourneys and folkstyle state.  And the folkstyle numbers of HS kids bear that out.  So why not start FS/GR earlier like we did for nearly 20 years with success?

[JTM2004]

My suggestion, give the high school guys a one week break and and go right into the freestyle greco season, but keep the folkstyle for the little kids....although im not an advocate of the folk season there are some parents that are not goin to pay for there kids to wrestle freestyle (which is insane) let them do there thing have the kids folk state then let them join the freestyle greco season....

 

a little food for thought  I never wrestled over 40 matches in a highschool folkstyle season win/loss included i went 127-14.  I wrestled freestyle and greco every spring and nearly doubled, let me repeat that doubled the amount of matches i had in a high school season, so roughly(very low end rough)  i had around 280 matches in 4 years wrestling the styles that everyone is so eager to bad mouth.  That seems like alot of valuable mat time to me.

[WaltHarris]

JTM2004, the numbers you displayed are right on par with my experience as a coach. My wrestlers doubled their regular HS season match totals in FS/GR.

[edb41]

This is easy, better education as to rules and scoring, MUCH better training for mat officials, pimp the style early & often.......I think it just sneaks up on alot of people.

[WaltHarris]

Some folks are quite challenged by the cost of our national team trips for freestyle and greco.  I would suggest the ISWA look into establishing an endowment. 

 

Yes, the endowment might not payout much interest for a good 20-30 years.  However, such long term strategic thinking of establishing an endowment will pay off in the future.  Just the interest alone from a nominal endowment could annually cover the cost of Fargo in another 25 years if it is managed well.

[H1N1]

Easy, stop allowing so many folkstyle tournaments, especially the 3 the iswa has AFTER folkstyle state.  It sure seems silly to have a folkstyle tournament right now when freestyle state is 3 weeks away.

[julio]

I think 1 of the reason that the numbers for freestyle and greco are going down are the folkstyle tournaments and the way they are ran.  I know that up here they run block weights and parents are happy to sit at a tournament for 4 hours and have there kids wrestle 3 matches and be home by 3 PM.  In some of the freestyle tournaments they may wrestle 2 matches in 3 hours or be there the whole day depending on the weight class numbers.  Some parents just don't want to wait, others don't mind, and understanding who they are going to wrestle next is easier to figure out in folkstyle than freestyle and greco.  In Greco i think its just the fact that most people don't understand the rules and some coaches don't want to teach greco, want kids to shoot rather than just throw, and the fact that the tournaments are on Friday night.  These are just some thoughts.

[Y2CJ41]

The difference between wrestlers now and 10 years ago is this. 

 

10 years ago a tournament was defined by how tough it was, aka weight classes that were loaded with great wrestlers

Today a tournament is defined by how fast you can get out of there

[grecoref]

The difference between wrestlers now and 10 years ago is this. 

 

10 years ago a tournament was defined by how tough it was, aka weight classes that were loaded with great wrestlers

Today a tournament is defined by how fast you can get out of there

 

I think you're on to something here Y2

[Y2CJ41]

Some smart people do go to Findlay....

[Coach Peck]

The difference between wrestlers now and 10 years ago is this. 

 

10 years ago a tournament was defined by how tough it was, aka weight classes that were loaded with great wrestlers

Today a tournament is defined by how fast you can get out of there

 

 

Very true.  Let's wrestle 2-3 matches and go home is now the cry when it used to be a kid/parent was proud when they could say they had the biggest weight class and they wrestled nine matches and they were the last people out of the building.

[grecoref]

Some smart people do go to Findlay....

 

Yes they do and most were before your time there.

[MattM]

 

Very true.  Let's wrestle 2-3 matches and go home is now the cry when it used to be a kid/parent was proud when they could say they had the biggest weight class and they wrestled nine matches and they were the last people out of the building.

 

While it is true some may want to go home and enjoy a little daylight I do believe most want to wrestled several time before doing it.  Most kids want to get the first match done in the first hour and then have a match about every 30min there after.  Obviously in most event this just isn't happening.  The big issue I have been hearing parents/wrestlers complain about during events are the 1.5-2 hour waits for the first match and then the 1-1.5 hour wait between matches.  When you have 2 matches done and in the mdidle of your 4th hour there it does start to wear on you and your parents.  In most cases I don't blaim the people running the event because they are trying to manage the chaos that comes with a huge group of wrestlers (in multiple age groups), the crowd, thier inexperiance table help, and this is all packed in a gym that sometimes isn't big enough.  It the just what happens when you have a lot of people want to participate in your event.  However, I think they can find ways to curb some of the problem before they start as I will mention below.

 

I think most want a good 5 or so  matches but would like to either sleep in a little before showing or be out the door before its dark.  My comment on a different theard about spliting the age groups start time in the traditionally big events would be helpful for this.  It would help cut the wait time dramiatically, the crowding dramatically, the confusion dramaticalyl, and still allow wrestlers to get several matches in and not take from 7am-7pm to do so.  Not to mention the tournament still will get the same attendence without a fire marshall size crowd and constant complaints.  Obviously for traditionally smaller tournaments this isn't needed but for the bigger ones it would surely help.

[WaltHarris]

Julio, Y2CJ41 and MattM all make excellent points.  I think there are 2 separate issues we face.  First, the ISWA exerting more control on how local tournaments are run.  Second, combating the ignorance of some parents and coaches.

[WaltHarris]

The ISWA should exert more control over local FS/GR tournaments.  

 

ISWA, please consider a list for all FS/GR local tournaments requiring:

1- Online registration, waiver & payment.

2- The first whistle must blow by 9 am.

3- A participant must have their first match within one hour of their age group scheduled start time.

4- A specific number of surfaces per X number of wrestlers.

5- Standard price structure.

 

ISWA, please consider the following calendar alterations:

1- Commence FS/GR within two weeks after HS Team State.

2- No local folkstyle tournaments after ISWA Folkstyle State.

 

[WaltHarris]

As a wrestling community, we need to combat the ignorance of some parents and coaches regarding FS/GR. 

 

Block brackets are easy to understand.  But vertical pairing has its merits.  For example, a person can lose one match in a vertical pairing system, but still come in 1st or 2nd place.  Whereas with block brackets, if you lose one match the best you can do is 3rd place.

 

I totally agree with Y2CJ41?s statement about efficiency today versus toughness 10 years ago.  Perhaps I am off base, but I believe we can have our cake and eat it too.  If we improve the efficiency of how we run FS/GR tournaments, then we can increase the number of tough matches.  Right now there is so much wasted time with empty mats and people waiting for bout sheets.  That is just a motivation killer.

 

If we look at the resume of most collegiate wrestlers, they have a deep FS/GR background.  Sadly, many ignorant people do not see that.  We need to do a better job as coaches, officials and an organization educating other parents and coaches about FS/GR.  This has to be a grassroots level effort.

 

[STARSMAN]

One thing that I know is a challenge for many is the sheer cost of offseason wrestling. I by no means think that it should be free and I understand how it takes money to run everything, but it is a lot of money to put a wrestler through the offseason if they were to wrestle a tourney a weekend and then the 3 state championships. I am not even gonna think about the costs that come when thinking about wrestling on the national stage. This is a problem that I know holds a lot of people back...maybe if the iswa was able to scale back the prices some then the #'s would pick up. Families with multiple children look to spend well over $1000 in an offseason of wrestling without thinking about camps or nationals. I am as big of a fan of greco and freestyle, and I kno of the extreme benefits that they pose for wrestlers that possess the skills gained from these styles...it saddens me that so many oare not able to take part in and be exposed to such great aspects of the sport.

[The Guru]

The ISWA should exert more control over local FS/GR tournaments.  

 

ISWA, please consider a list for all FS/GR local tournaments requiring:

1- Online registration, waiver & payment.

2- The first whistle must blow by 9 am.

3- A participant must have their first match within one hour of their age group scheduled start time.

4- A specific number of surfaces per X number of wrestlers.

5- Standard price structure.

 

ISWA, please consider the following calendar alterations:

1- Commence FS/GR within two weeks after HS Team State.

2- No local folkstyle tournaments after ISWA Folkstyle State.

 

 

These are some good suggestions. ISWA could sanction events with expectations along these lines. But the question is - What can the ISWA do when a club doesn't comply that will;  A- be effective and B- not diminish wrestling opportunities for the kids in that particular area or club in the future.

[Infolady]

The ISWA cannot deny a sanction to any club in good standing. It is up to each tournament to structure their event. Although the ISWA attempts to seperate the seasons, if a club chooses to have a Folkstyle event, during the predominately FR/GR season, that is their choice. All the ISWA can do is use the FS tournaments as qualifiers in order to encourage the clubs to schedule a FS/GR event.

 

Since trackwrestling charges for their service, it would not be fair for the ISWA to require tournaments to use them. Any means of on-line registration and payment requires some type of fee for their service. Most clubs don't have a a way to receive credit card payments.

 

When hosting an event, there are so many variables, it is impossible to require suggestions 2 & 3. Even if you have faxed or emails only, there are always problems with someone in the wrong weight class or age division, etc.  

 

The clubs set the price for their event. Many times it is based on expenses. For example, one club may award the wrestlers a 3" custom medal while another may only award a 2" generic medal. There is a big difference in cost, which is usually built into the entry fee. Also, some schools allow their club to host an event free of charge while other school corporations charge the club between $1500 and $3000 just to use the facility.  This cost must be considered when setting the entry fee. In addition, some clubs reimburse officials travel money and/or  share some of their profit with a club that lends physical support.

 

At the present time the FS/GR season begins 3 weeks after HS Team State.  The primary reason is to allow 2 week-ends for folkstyle state since it draws twice the participation of FS State and 5 times the participation of Greco. In most ares of Indiana, the middle school season is not over until mid-March. The present date of Folkstyle State Finals already poses a conflict for many 8th grade cadets. To host it any earlier would not be possible. Although I certainly see the value of FS/GR, the calendar is set in order to accommodate as many wrestlers as possible and the greater participation is in Folkstyle.  

 

The ISWA offers tournament guidelines and strongly suggests that events be conducted a certain way but it is impossible to oversee every tournament. Some are great...others are not.

[TripleB]

Madison had around 25-30 walk ins. That's 25-30 kids that wouldn't have gotten to wrestle with online registration or pre-reg only.

 

[H1N1]

LOL......... Anyone else find funny that Infolady has the tagline "If you keep on doing what you've always done, you'll keep on getting what you always got" yet spent 6 paragraphs talking about why everything needs to stay the exact same!!!!  Ha, ha.

[Y2CJ41]

LOL......... Anyone else find funny that Infolady has the tagline "If you keep on doing what you've always done, you'll keep on getting what you always got" yet spent 6 paragraphs talking about why everything needs to stay the exact same!!!!  Ha, ha.

The monthly board meeting is this Sunday, feel free to stop by and offer your foolproof ways of making all tournaments filled with fairies and rainbows.

[SlickRodz]

I like the use of pre-registration and weigh-inns. They do allow tourneys to start closer to time. I also like using track wrestling in that is shows wrestler lists and gives the wrestlers an idea of his competition. However, there are some problems like no-shows. Is it possible to take attendance quickly prior to wrestling? Saturday at Perry we had a case where a no-show had a bye in the first round, then he forfeited twice. This did a couple of things. It gave wrestlers who did not wrestle 5 points for two rounds, then the no-show was dropped. It was an odd number bracket so had they know he was not there. No bye's would have been needed.

 

Sad thing was, a wrestler that showed up and lost his first two matches finished behind the no-show! The no-show had the first round bye so he made it 3 rounds where the guy who showed made it two.

[WaltHarris]

SUGGESTION 1: Online registration, waiver & payment.

RESPONSE:  Since trackwrestling charges for their service, it would not be fair for the ISWA to require tournaments to use them. Any means of on-line registration and payment requires some type of fee for their service. Most clubs don't have a way to receive credit card payments.

 

If we look at the issue in a collaborative fashion and not rule things out, there still are 2 options.

 

Option A: Clubs use services like Google Apps for registration and waiver.  Google Apps does not charge anything.  Then wrestlers pay onsite as they enter the door.  I attended two tournaments this year that used Google Apps for online registration/waiver.  Both tournaments were executed quite well.

 

Option B: Have the ISWA contract with a single vendor to provide online registration, waiver and payment.  I believe the state of Utah?s wrestling organization does this, as does several organizations like USA Swimming.  There?s plenty of companies out there like Credentials, Inc. that provide secure registration services at a nominal fee.

 

I will say that option A sounds much better than option B.  With option A, Infolady?s valid point about credit card payments can still be encompassed with the solution.