Reasons for a class system for team state

[pin2win1]

Grasping for straws here, keep grasping for them.... one will come to you

 

No not really, just asking at what point do we stop handicapping the field? so it can be fair to everyone? I mean safety is a great reason, so lets handicap the field by weightclasses. But do we go by height? SHould we have height classes to that way it is fair for short people with short little arms who can't shoot  on others? Do we say "oh you only had 10 other wrestlers come out for your team, therefore as an individual you only have to complete with school that have 11 wrestlers. Do we handicap it by saying, your mom and dad only made 15,000 last year, so you only compete against other families in a similar state.... where does it end y2 and karl? where does it end?

 

Congrats, you get a cookie for showing that a 5A school can beat another 5A school.  The cookie is in the mail, thanks for the story.

 

but a 5a school that has half as many students as the other 5a school.

 

 

See that is where you get no sympathy from me.... I competed against a school in 2 sports that was twice the size of my school...... never once did i say it wasn't fair because they were bigger, i competed. I lost individually and as a team all excepte 1 time as a team. Never complained. i don't think we should be in different classes, and if we did go to different classes i would be upset then too.

[Y2CJ41]

 

 

Hey a stud's a stud....... plus those who are not injured can still practice against their practice partners, even if they suck so bad.

 

Y2, quite frankly i'd say it to individual, if you didn't win state there it is because of 1 of 3 reasons. 1) You were seriously injured and were not longer cleared to compete, 2) You reaced your full potential and that just wasn't enough, 3) You didn't work hard enough.

Next year the Garrett wrestling program will implement this training regiment, we will be guaranteed 14 state runner-up finishes right?

[MattM]

Where do these "studs" come from in the first place?

 

Do they automatically appear as larger schools when they start a program more than they do at small schools when they start a program?  I guess the answer is they come with the big schools since those rooms have more studs to push the other individuals to get better.   :

[pin2win1]

Three one point or overtime matches don't show that there was much if any improvement.  If those two wrestle 10 times, its 5 wins each.  Neither is superior than the other.

 

well how did he get equal? I mean Beck had a HUGE advantage right?

 

The ship is sinking better get out the life raft, I know if I answer the question my whole premise is going to go down the tubes, so I will divert attention to something else.  Great strategy, but it is not working.  Ten posts worth of dodging the question shows you know the right answer, but can't come to terms with typing it out.

 

Nope sorry, just because i do not give the answer you want does not mean what i am saying is going down the tubes... it just says we disagree....

 

Next year the Garrett wrestling program will implement this training regiment, we will be guaranteed 14 state runner-up finishes right?

probably not, cause their coach thinks a small school individual can not compete with the large schools, he already pus his team at a disadvantage!  Plus i dunno, are your guys any good? Have they busted their butts for the last 10 years? Can their coach believe that small school individuals can compete against large school individuals? I never said a bad wrestler would do will in this situation, but any wrestler who is great before the season (who gets great between March and Oct) can be great even if they do not have great practice partners... that was the point of that illustration.

[KarlHungus]

So what happens when you class individuals and some small schools have multiple studs, while others only have 1. Do we take away all but 1 stud from the school with multiple studs to "even" the playing field?

 

No one said a classed system is 100% fair.  It is just more equitable then he current set up

 

My senior year we beat penn, this was despite losing the 3 previous matches to penn and Penn having way more wrestlers than us..... so under your logic we should have lost... can you tell me, what did we do to win.... Penn had the history on us, they had the numbers, so what did we do? We gave up because they were bigger, had more athletes to choose from, more practice partners, history on their side.... i guess we said oh well no biggie, we can't win ;-)

 

Penn and Mishawaka should always be a close dual.  Winning 3 straight is hardly history.  Mishawaka has much more history and tradition than Penn will ever have.  When Mishawaka has 60 on the roster and Penn has 80, there are going to be plenty of athletes and practice partners on both sides. (Note: I am not saying those were the numbers when you wrestled, but they are the approximate number this year). 

 

Compare that with with Laville's 16 wrestlers.  3 of which were talked into wrestling for the first time in their lives because they might earn a letter.  LaVille has no chance to ever beat Penn, Mishawaka, Riley, or Clay.  They have very little chance of ever beating Adams or Washington.  The can compete for the bottome 3 with Marian and St. Joe.  LaVille's individuals, likewise, are severly disadvantaged because of the lack of practice partners, etc.

 

[Y2CJ41]

No not really, just asking at what point do we stop handicapping the field? so it can be fair to everyone? I mean safety is a great reason, so lets handicap the field by weightclasses. But do we go by height? SHould we have height classes to that way it is fair for short people with short little arms who can't shoot  on others? Do we say "oh you only had 10 other wrestlers come out for your team, therefore as an individual you only have to complete with school that have 11 wrestlers. Do we handicap it by saying, your mom and dad only made 15,000 last year, so you only compete against other families in a similar state.... where does it end y2 and karl? where does it end?

Every state that I have researched has only classed based on school size.  You could propose classing by those other criteria if you so please.  I would listen to sound arguments for them.  Classing by school size is very socially accepted, just as classing by scholarship money.  School size is an easily measured way of classing schools with very little disagreement.

 

but a 5a school that has half as many students as the other 5a school.

 

 

See that is where you get no sympathy from me.... I competed against a school in 2 sports that was twice the size of my school...... never once did i say it wasn't fair because they were bigger, i competed. I lost individually and as a team all excepte 1 time as a team. Never complained. i don't think we should be in different classes, and if we did go to different classes i would be upset then too.

I only grew up with one parent, so I think everyone should grow up with one parent.  I never complained, so I think everyone should feel like I did.  Guess what, Mishawaka and Penn will be in the same class.  I know you will miss beating up on LaVille, it will be tough to give up that heated rivalry, but I think you can do it.

[pin2win1]

Y2, if you want small school individuals to have success.... get them to get their wrestlers in the room at other places during the off season... get them to go to camps... get them to go to tournaments..... have their coaches go out and fund raise instead of arguing on the board with a nobody in the wrestling community all day and night

 

However, we could just class wrestling and make the small schools not have to do any of this to make it to state or win a title....

 

To me that sounds like the easy way.

 

I mean is that the problem? Do you want me to send your team a bunch of ribbons saying they worked hard? Maybe i will after the season next year for all those who don't make it to state...... maybe DNR will do that for another team.... maybe TAE will do it for another team.... then everyone can be recognized and be happy.

[KarlHungus]

well how did he get equal? I mean Beck had a HUGE advantage right?

 

Since when did Beck have a huge advantage. 

 

Nope sorry, just because i do not give the answer you want does not mean what i am saying is going down the tubes... it just says we disagree....

 

If if it is the only reasonable and logical answer....

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

Y2, if you want small school individuals to have success.... get them to get their wrestlers in the room at other places during the off season... get them to go to camps... get them to go to tournaments..... have their coaches go out and fund raise instead of arguing on the board with a nobody in the wrestling community all day and night

 

However, we could just class wrestling and make the small schools not have to do any of this to make it to state or win a title....

 

To me that sounds like the easy way.

 

I mean is that the problem? Do you want me to send your team a bunch of ribbons saying they worked hard? Maybe i will after the season next year for all those who don't make it to state...... maybe DNR will do that for another team.... maybe TAE will do it for another team.... then everyone can be recognized and be happy.

Do you really think that Jimtown doesn't work hard to have success in football?  Do you really think that people will work less hard for a state championship?  Are you honestly stating that classing ANYTHING makes people work less hard?

[Y2CJ41]

It is a slap in the face of all small school coaches that work to make their programs the best they can be when you say they will just put it in cruise control if wrestling is classed.  Do you honestly with all the brain cells in your head believe coaches will stop taking kids to camps, stop running their RTCs, stop running their clubs?  Saying that coaches will stop working hard for their kid's success because it is a classed system is one of the msot absurd statements of all time.  I guess you really have no faith in wrestling coaches, that is what it boils down to. 

[pin2win1]

Every state that I have researched has only classed based on school size.  You could propose classing by those other criteria if you so please.  I would listen to sound arguments for them

 

Well i would hate to stop at school size y2, how about hair color?

 

I only grew up with one parent, so I think everyone should grow up with one parent.  I never complained, so I think everyone should feel like I did.  Guess what, Mishawaka and Penn will be in the same class.  I know you will miss beating up on LaVille, it will be tough to give up that heated rivalry, but I think you can do it.

 

Are you comparing sports to that? I am not even going to touch that statement, it doesn't even dignify a response.

 

Do you really think that Jimtown doesn't work hard to have success in football?  Do you really think that people will work less hard for a state championship?  Are you honestly stating that classing ANYTHING makes people work less hard?

 

team sports are different than individual sports... i have stated that over and over... lets keep this to individuals... And yes, I believe that if you make it easier to get to state, that people will not work as hard. You have no way to prove other wise, and I can;t prove my beliefe either.... that is why we call them opinions.

[pin2win1]

its not just wrestling coaches.... its humanity... i mean if you were offered 2 jobs which would you take.... one that paide you a million dollars a year to show up and you aere guaranteed a million dollars, or a job where you had to show up, work your butt off, and make a million off of commission?

 

Quite frankly it is my lack of faith in humanity, humanity takes the easy way out of the way if it is presented.

[KarlHungus]

Y2, if you want small school individuals to have success.... get them to get their wrestlers in the room at other places during the off season... get them to go to camps... get them to go to tournaments..... have their coaches go out and fund raise instead of arguing on the board with a nobody in the wrestling community all day and night

 

Many already do this but they are still at a disadvantage due to the pool of athletes.

 

However, we could just class wrestling and make the small schools not have to do any of this to make it to state or win a title....

 

To me that sounds like the easy way.

 

So small school state champs in a classed tournament will not have to get there wrestlers any extra mat time??  I wish it were that easy. I wouldn't have to drive kids to open rooms after track practice then.  I could have some extra time to fund raise or even argue on the internet.

 

I mean is that the problem? Do you want me to send your team a bunch of ribbons saying they worked hard? Maybe i will after the season next year for all those who don't make it to state...... maybe DNR will do that for another team.... maybe TAE will do it for another team.... then everyone can be recognized and be happy.

 

The problem is that Indiana high school wrestling is in the stone age and our athletes are not competing on the same footing as their peers in other sports in the state and not competing on the same footing with wrestlers in the vast majority of the country. 

 

A much smaller problem is that there seems to be a small but vocal group that want our state to keep this outdated system because they prefer it rather than thinking about what is best for the athletes.

[pin2win1]

also y2, lets us look at it from an athlete's point of view......

 

No class: State series is more exclusive, thereby you have to be top notch to make it to state. Wrestling is a sport you love but you want to start for the varsity football team this fall..... Football coach comes to you and says, "hey if you want to start next fall, I need you in the weight room everyday and on the field for 7 and 7 every day. You are not going to have time for anything else, I need you." What is a student going to do? My guess is he is going to say "no thanks, i will wrestle this summer it is my number 1 sport , but i will come out as a back up if you need me next fall." or something similar to that.

 

Class: we have one of the best wrestlers in the state at a small school.... he is almost guaranteed state, cause small schools are so weak because only 25 percent of non classed state wrestlers are from small school. I mean he is great, he could make it to state against the big school kids. Now he too likes football, and the coach tells him the same thing as the other scenario...... My guess is the wrestler may choose football that summer over wrestling because he can make it to state without putting the work in as a wrestler that summer.

 

Just my guess, i think it is a valid scenario and very well could happen.

[pin2win1]

Well we are going to have to agree to disagree...... about individuals being disadvantaged.... never gonna change

 

A much smaller problem is that there seems to be a small but vocal group that want our state to keep this outdated system because they prefer it rather than thinking about what is best for the athletes.

 

seems that the most vocal voice on this board is the class people, also seems rather evenly split I mean.... Not only that, the people who stop arguing with you tend to be the non-classed people so, i doubt classless wrestling is in the huge minority.

 

 

I think the problem is that people like Y2 spend too much time on a message board instead of fundraising and working hard to make their team better. Ok maybe not really, but I mean if you can throw out ridiculous and unfounded statements, i can too.

[KarlHungus]

Well i would hate to stop at school size y2, how about hair color?

 

yeah thats reasonable.  Why not just stop a school size since we already class sports on school size.  Why water it down anymore.

 

Are you comparing sports to that? I am not even going to touch that statement, it doesn't even dignify a response.

 

Your the one that played the no sympathy card.  Frankly, Mishawaka with their 60 wrestlers and Penn with their 80 are in a different galaxy than 95 percent of the schools in the state.

 

team sports are different than individual sports... i have stated that over and over... lets keep this to individuals... And yes, I believe that if you make it easier to get to state, that people will not work as hard. You have no way to prove other wise, and I can;t prove my beliefe either.... that is why we call them opinions.

 

1.  Wrestling is a team sport, they keep a team score.

 

2.  You have all but admitted that equal individuals are going to have an advantage at larger schools due to the likelyhood of them having better practice partners from November to February.  If there is an advantage to being an individual at a large school then this is enough reason to class the individual tournament.

 

3.  I believe that schools like LaVille will work a lot harder because with a classed tournament they have a realistic chance to advance as a team and with individuals.  As the system stands now, their team stands zero chance of ever advancing and their individuals face huge disadvantages to advancement.  What incentive is there for there team to work hard?

[KarlHungus]

also y2, lets us look at it from an athlete's point of view......

 

No class: State series is more exclusive, thereby you have to be top notch to make it to state. Wrestling is a sport you love but you want to start for the varsity football team this fall..... Football coach comes to you and says, "hey if you want to start next fall, I need you in the weight room everyday and on the field for 7 and 7 every day. You are not going to have time for anything else, I need you." What is a student going to do? My guess is he is going to say "no thanks, i will wrestle this summer it is my number 1 sport , but i will come out as a back up if you need me next fall." or something similar to that.

 

Class: we have one of the best wrestlers in the state at a small school.... he is almost guaranteed state, cause small schools are so weak because only 25 percent of non classed state wrestlers are from small school. I mean he is great, he could make it to state against the big school kids. Now he too likes football, and the coach tells him the same thing as the other scenario...... My guess is the wrestler may choose football that summer over wrestling because he can make it to state without putting the work in as a wrestler that summer.

 

Just my guess, i think it is a valid scenario and very well could happen.

 

I can see you have no perspective on a small school athlete.  A kid as good as you described at both football and wrestling will be a major contributor to both sports and good coaches will share that athletes time.  Don't forget about the spring sports as this kid will probably be running track or playing baseball too.  He will work hard at all three sports and contribute to his schools sports teams.  Unfortunately, because making it to state is so difficult for a small school athlete, he might only make it his senior year.  He misses the exposure multiple state appearances would have given him to colleges and doesn't not see wrestling in college as an option.  Our state misses out on a kid who could have been a college wrestler and possibly return to teach or coach with that college wrestling experience.

[pin2win1]

Your the one that played the no sympathy card.  Frankly, Mishawaka with their 60 wrestlers and Penn with their 80 are in a different galaxy than 95 percent of the schools in the state.

 

first off at that time penn was taking multiple JV teams to JV tourneys.... Mishawaka at that time had just enough for about 2 full teams..... i am not even sure we lined up in the right weightclasses on JV to have 2 full teams. that being said, I would never compare wrestling to a kid only having one parent. Sorry, goes way over board... kinda like the guy who made the afghanstan comment on the board the other day...... crossing the line Karl.....

 

1.  Wrestling is a team sport, they keep a team score.

Not for a majority of the individual series...... But they keep team score in golf and tennis and track, but aren't those single class sports as well? Sorry no cigar Karl.

 

2.  You have all but admitted that equal individuals are going to have an advantage at larger schools due to the likelyhood of them having better practice partners from November to February.  If there is an advantage to being an individual at a large school then this is enough reason to class the individual tournament.

 

did i say that? don;t think i did. sorry Karl

 

3.  I believe that schools like LaVille will work a lot harder because with a classed tournament they have a realistic chance to advance as a team and with individuals.   As the system stands now, their team stands zero chance of ever advancing and their individuals face huge disadvantages to advancement.  What incentive is there for there team to work hard?

 

you are entitled to your opinion... maybe they could work hard to make it our of their sectional. i would think if i were a huge underdog, that I would be extremely thrilled with making it out of my sectional

 

Well gentlemen, i use that in a loose sarcastic manner seeing as you both are big men behind your keyboards and wont say anythng to my face 9(i'd hate for you to misconstrue what I said), its late.. it is bed time.

[pin2win1]

real quick cause this was left before i posted my last post.

 

I can see you have no perspective on a small school athlete.  A kid as good as you described at both football and wrestling will be a major contributor to both sports and good coaches will share that athletes time.  Don't forget about the spring sports as this kid will probably be running track or playing baseball too.  He will work hard at all three sports and contribute to his schools sports teams.  Unfortunately, because making it to state is so difficult for a small school athlete, he might only make it his senior year.  He misses the exposure multiple state appearances would have given him to colleges and doesn't not see wrestling in college as an option.  Our state misses out on a kid who could have been a college wrestler and possibly return to teach or coach with that college wrestling experience.

 

Well that is his choice now isn't it. Although now I find it funny that you mention the small school athlete..... My best friend from college came from southern wells.... his best sport was basketball, oh wait his only sport was basketball. Pretty good athlete too... held a couple of records i believe. His brother's number one sport was football, and he only played basketball and football. He too was a good athlete, good enough to play some college football at a D3 school for a year. yep all small school atheletes are obligated to play 3 sports. Hmm, kinda blows that theory that small school athletes play 3 sports because they have to... they didn't and were two of the most poplar kids at school.... no one despised them for not playing 3 sports. My friend was loved by almost everyone and was homecoming king.

 

I guess it goes to show, small schoool kids can play less than 3 sports

[KarlHungus]

first off at that time penn was taking multiple JV teams to JV tourneys.... Mishawaka at that time had just enough for about 2 full teams..... i am not even sure we lined up in the right weightclasses on JV to have 2 full teams. that being said, I would never compare wrestling to a kid only having one parent. Sorry, goes way over board... kinda like the guy who made the afghanstan comment on the board the other day...... crossing the line Karl.....

 

Crossing what line?? The numbers are what the teams are like now as I previously stated.

 

Not for a majority of the individual series...... But they keep team score in golf and tennis and track, but aren't those single class sports as well? Sorry no cigar Karl.

 

That is why those sports should be classed as well.  Just like they are classed in most of the states in America.

 

did i say that? don;t think i did. sorry Karl

 

Yes you did. On at least two separate posts.  I have proved you wrong on at least 2 different items tonight using your own quotes.  You better go back and reread what you said about quality of practice partners and the likely hood of having quality practice partners. 

 

you are entitled to your opinion... maybe they could work hard to make it our of their sectional. i would think if i were a huge underdog, that I would be extremely thrilled with making it out of my sectional

 

Like I said LaVille's team has no chance at success in the state series and their individuals are at a huge disadvantage.  You have yet to give me reason to believe otherwise.

 

Well gentlemen, i use that in a loose sarcastic manner seeing as you both are big men behind your keyboards and wont say anythng to my face 9(i'd hate for you to misconstrue what I said), its late.. it is bed time.

 

This is where you and I differ.  You claim I have twisted your words and so forth but you have yet to show me one instance where I have done this.  I call you out on your many factual and logical errors along with your guesses and you immediately puff up and want to meet face to face to "settle the score" I guess.  Meanwhile you throw out personal insults my way.  Maybe your frustrated that I don't respond to personal insults in a manner to your liking.  I really don't know.  However, whether it is said on a message board or face to face, the fact remains that your arguments are full of factual errors, random guesses, and vague understanding of the state of wrestling in small schools. 

 

So who is the internet tough guy in this scenario?  The one that tries to rationally and logically discuss the topic or the one that throws out errors, guesses and insulting judgements of programs that they know nothing about.  On top of that calling the one who is trying to discuss reasonably a coward, chicken, simpleminded among other insults.

[KarlHungus]

real quick cause this was left before i posted my last post.

 

Well that is his choice now isn't it.

 

Yes it is but a good small school athlete is going to get more pressure from peers and coaches to play 3 sports than a good athlete ata big school.  I have seen it first hand.

 

Although now I find it funny that you mention the small school athlete.....

 

It was your scenario of the small school athlete that I was responding too. 

 

My best friend from college came from southern wells.... his best sport was basketball, oh wait his only sport was basketball. Pretty good athlete too... held a couple of records i believe. His brother's number one sport was football, and he only played basketball and football. He too was a good athlete, good enough to play some college football at a D3 school for a year. yep all small school atheletes are obligated to play 3 sports

 

Nowhere did I ever say small school athletes are OBLIGATED to play 3 sports.  However you seem to feel OBLIGATED to put words in my mouth.  I am glad I am not as easily offended as you or the Keyboard Warrior might be going postal by now.

 

Hmm, kinda blows that theory that small school athletes play 3 sports because they have to.

 

Neve said that all small school athletes HAVE to play in 3 sports.  I have said small school athletes are under more pressure by peers and coaches to play 3 sports in order to remain competitive as an athletic department. 

 

I have 15 years of experience coaching 3 sports at small schools.  You have 2 isolated examples.  Did you ever ask your best friend if his high school friends or coaches of other sports ever asked him to do another sport??    I'm sorry but I think I will trust my 15 years of first hand experience over your examples so no I dont think it blows the theory that small school athletes are more likely to particpate in 3 sports.  You are getting good and twisting my words though.

 

they didn't and were two of the most poplar kids at school.... no one despised them for not playing 3 sports. My friend was loved by almost everyone and was homecoming king.

 

I guess it goes to show, small schoool kids can play less than 3 sports

 

Did I eve say not playing 3 sports would make you lest popular, more despised, less loved, or less likely to be named homecoming king?  It sounds like your are fully on board the DNR train with that statement.  Have fun it's a wild ride.

[Drooke]

This is the second time I have linked this post at this site... I only do so because it rings true.

 

Just for the record,

I am for class wrestling. I think it would be great for the growth of our sport. 

However, just because there are people who think we need it, doesn't mean we should take it to the IHSAA as an association yet.  The topic has been polled several times among IHSWCA members and just like on the discussion board, there are vehement supporters on both sides of the issue.  As I remember it, the polls have historically been around 50/50, with a slight edge going one way or the other from time to time.  (Perhaps it IS time to discuss it / poll it again amongst coaches?).  The IHSAA has repeatedly told our representatives that they want to see overwhelming support from the coaches (like 85-90%) for a proposal before they will consider it.  So, even if we get 60%, 65%, or even 70% of coaches in favor of class wrestling, the IHSAA will shoot it down because we don't have all of the coaches on board.  Furthermore, the IHSAA has set the precedent that they don't want to talk about taking the "individual" sports to classes.  Even if 95% of wrestling coaches were in favor of it, the IHSAA would not change JUST wrestling to classes.  To them, it's all or nothing, meaning that they would also change track, tennis, swimming, gymnastics, etc.  In order to really get the IHSAA's attention, there would probably have to be a coalition of coaches' associations from the "indidvidual" sports show support for classes in their sports and promote the idea together.  I'm not saying that this can never be attained, but it's not as simple as just deciding that we as wrestling coaches want class wrestling so it's going to happen.  That is why, wrestlebacks, for instance, have been proposed several times (in different forms) by the IHSWCA. Most coaches agree that this would improve our sport and our state tournament.  Even WITH overwhelming support of high school coaches, the IHSAA has repeatedly shot us down (why, I don't really know, other than the fact that they don't like change!). 

Class wrestling may one day come to Indiana, but if and when it does, it will happen in stages: 1) a large majority of coaches in Indiana need to be convinced that there is a need for class wrestling  (judging from the discussions that I have read, we are a long way from this right now).  2) once wrestling is solidly in favor of classes, we would need to get to work with other coaches' associations of tennis, golf, swimming, track, etc. and try to convince them to support classes for their sports as well.  3).  Finally, if 1 & 2 are achieved, the IHSAA  MAY listen to a proposal, but I would still be sceptical of it passing until the powers that be were convinced that it is THEIR idea. 

 

I know this may sound like a defeatist attitude, but my point is that it is pretty clear from the historical stance of the IHSAA that proposing class wrestling right now would be something akin to "peeing in the wind" for lack of a better description.  Therefore, the IHSWCA has been focusing on changing / improving the system that we DO have to work with.  I agree, though, that class wrestling is a hot topic and this discussion board is a great place to debate the virtues / vices of classes and to begin convincing those non - believers that it would be good for our sport. 

 

 

 

Chris Ervin

Crawfordsville High School

Head Wrestling Coach

 

Y2's interview with Bobby Cox would seem to solidify the fact that class wrestling is not on the IHSAA's radar.

 

[Disco]

This is the second time I have linked this post at this site... I only do so because it rings true.

 

Just for the record,

I am for class wrestling. I think it would be great for the growth of our sport. 

However, just because there are people who think we need it, doesn't mean we should take it to the IHSAA as an association yet.  The topic has been polled several times among IHSWCA members and just like on the discussion board, there are vehement supporters on both sides of the issue.  As I remember it, the polls have historically been around 50/50, with a slight edge going one way or the other from time to time.  (Perhaps it IS time to discuss it / poll it again amongst coaches?).  The IHSAA has repeatedly told our representatives that they want to see overwhelming support from the coaches (like 85-90%) for a proposal before they will consider it.  So, even if we get 60%, 65%, or even 70% of coaches in favor of class wrestling, the IHSAA will shoot it down because we don't have all of the coaches on board.  Furthermore, the IHSAA has set the precedent that they don't want to talk about taking the "individual" sports to classes.  Even if 95% of wrestling coaches were in favor of it, the IHSAA would not change JUST wrestling to classes.  To them, it's all or nothing, meaning that they would also change track, tennis, swimming, gymnastics, etc.  In order to really get the IHSAA's attention, there would probably have to be a coalition of coaches' associations from the "indidvidual" sports show support for classes in their sports and promote the idea together.  I'm not saying that this can never be attained, but it's not as simple as just deciding that we as wrestling coaches want class wrestling so it's going to happen.  That is why, wrestlebacks, for instance, have been proposed several times (in different forms) by the IHSWCA. Most coaches agree that this would improve our sport and our state tournament.  Even WITH overwhelming support of high school coaches, the IHSAA has repeatedly shot us down (why, I don't really know, other than the fact that they don't like change!). 

Class wrestling may one day come to Indiana, but if and when it does, it will happen in stages: 1) a large majority of coaches in Indiana need to be convinced that there is a need for class wrestling  (judging from the discussions that I have read, we are a long way from this right now).  2) once wrestling is solidly in favor of classes, we would need to get to work with other coaches' associations of tennis, golf, swimming, track, etc. and try to convince them to support classes for their sports as well.  3).  Finally, if 1 & 2 are achieved, the IHSAA  MAY listen to a proposal, but I would still be sceptical of it passing until the powers that be were convinced that it is THEIR idea.   

 

I know this may sound like a defeatist attitude, but my point is that it is pretty clear from the historical stance of the IHSAA that proposing class wrestling right now would be something akin to "peeing in the wind" for lack of a better description.  Therefore, the IHSWCA has been focusing on changing / improving the system that we DO have to work with.  I agree, though, that class wrestling is a hot topic and this discussion board is a great place to debate the virtues / vices of classes and to begin convincing those non - believers that it would be good for our sport. 

 

 

 

Chris Ervin

Crawfordsville High School

Head Wrestling Coach

 

Y2's interview with Bobby Cox would seem to solidify the fact that class wrestling is not on the IHSAA's radar.

 

  Amen brother!

[Y2CJ41]

also y2, lets us look at it from an athlete's point of view......

 

No class: State series is more exclusive, thereby you have to be top notch to make it to state. Wrestling is a sport you love but you want to start for the varsity football team this fall..... Football coach comes to you and says, "hey if you want to start next fall, I need you in the weight room everyday and on the field for 7 and 7 every day. You are not going to have time for anything else, I need you." What is a student going to do? My guess is he is going to say "no thanks, i will wrestle this summer it is my number 1 sport , but i will come out as a back up if you need me next fall." or something similar to that.

 

Class: we have one of the best wrestlers in the state at a small school.... he is almost guaranteed state, cause small schools are so weak because only 25 percent of non classed state wrestlers are from small school. I mean he is great, he could make it to state against the big school kids. Now he too likes football, and the coach tells him the same thing as the other scenario...... My guess is the wrestler may choose football that summer over wrestling because he can make it to state without putting the work in as a wrestler that summer.

 

Just my guess, i think it is a valid scenario and very well could happen.

State is never guaranteed unless you are someone like Andrew Howe.  Your hypothetical scenario hasn't worked in this current system.  You honestly have never coached, have you?

[Y2CJ41]

team sports are different than individual sports... i have stated that over and over... lets keep this to individuals... And yes, I believe that if you make it easier to get to state, that people will not work as hard. You have no way to prove other wise, and I can;t prove my beliefe either.... that is why we call them opinions.

It is easier to make it to state in football, basketball, volleyball, and all the classed sports than it is in wrestling.  I see the football coach pushing 7 on 7 in the summer, I see the basketball team in a rec league in Fort Wayne, I see the volleyball team with a camp during the summer.  Those coaches and athletes are still working hard for success even though it is "easier."