Reasons for a class system for team state

[Jimtown 138]

i love class wrestling

 

If you love it so much, why don't you just marry it?

 

Speaking of married, don't anybody tell my old lady that I didn't go to work today...

[pin2win1]

Jimtown 138,

 

What's your price ;-) Of course for me not to tell her that you called her an old lady, that may cost you extra ;-)

[Tilt]

 

 

Speaking of married, don't anybody tell my old lady that I didn't go to work today...

 

umm...yeah...mine either!!!

 

you do seem to be working hard now to get those shoes...glad to give a little help though

[KarlHungus]

I wouldn;t use those exact words.... i would say that everything has been said that can be said. You know I have heard it said that you can't argue with idiots cause they will only bring you down to their level.... well i got tired of being brought down your level. So the wise thing to do is let you claim victory and remain an idiot than be an idiot myself ;-)

 

 

This coming from a guy calling people chicken, coward, simpleminded, and now idiot.  Solid.

[pin2win1]

you do seem to be working hard now to get those shoes...glad to give a little help though

 

Oh don't worry... I'll make sure my Northern Indiana buddy makes it there.

[Jimtown 138]

Jimtown 138,

 

What's your price ;-) Of course for me not to tell her that you called her an old lady, that may cost you extra ;-)

 

We'll just have to see what the payout is when this thing hits 60 pages!

[pin2win1]

This coming from a guy calling people chicken, coward, simpleminded, and now idiot.  Solid.

 

No one said I liked class (bad pun intended  ), Mr. Keyboard Warrior.

[pin2win1]

 

We'll just have to see what the payout is when this thing hits 60 pages!

 

I'll take half..... btw, i think i know....  but gotta ask, For or against class?

[Jimtown 138]

I'll take half..... btw, i think i know....  but gotta ask, For or against class?

 

I'm just here for the money...

 

I tried months ago to express my feelings on the topic and was verbally lambasted. I've paid my dues and have two dogs in the fight and I don't take well with getting grief from posers. So I try and keep out of the BS.

[SlickRodz]

I want to get into the "works hard" label.

 

What exactly are we talking about?

 

The kids working hard in practice, the staff working hard inside and outside of practice, the support group (parents and legends (X-wrestlers)? What ?

 

1.) Every successful wrestling program in the state works hard. Period, if they did not they would not be successful. They work hard in all aspects.

2.) Every program that works hard WILL BE SUCCESSFUL. Period. It is the measurement of that success that is in question.  

3.) Hard work is not enough, it takes experience and relationships to be successful. A coach, regardless of school size MUST understand:

     Recruiting from within- getting athletes to come out for wrestling

     Relationships with Coaches from within - example football coach to encourage dual sport participation

     Relationships with Coaches outside - successful programs need tough competition, can be difficult to schedule

     Relationships with teachers - to foresee problems before they arise

     Relationships with community - community support is required for building youth program (see Jeffersonville, best in the State)

     Organizational skills - mandatory for building parent support group, parent support group is a major part of success

     Psychology of youth- Wrestlers are teenagers and teenagers have problems that a coach MUST be involved with

 

And when all of these are in place and working like a well oiled machine your program will be successful.  The big question is how do we measure success. That is where the current discussion leads us.

 

In my opinion schools with a lack success (large or small) usually (not always) fail somewhere in the number 3 above. It is not due to a lack of effort or HARD WORK but a lack of knowledge or experience. Small schools usually have the most inexperienced Coaches and that leads to lack of success.

 

That said, if everything was equal and all Coaches knew everything equally school size would still matter. Less athletes = less in room = less success. But where do we draw the line. Bloomington South has 1745 students and we compete in classed sports with schools that have 1000-1200 more than us. Fair....not on paper but that is the facts. Even if we classed (3 classes)wrestling there would still be a huge disparity in school attendance. We would have to make 10 classes to be truly equal. Is that what the class wrestling folks want.

 

[pin2win1]

I tried months ago to express my feelings on the topic and was verbally lambasted. I've paid my dues and have two dogs in the fight and I don't take well with getting grief from posers. So I try and keep out of the BS.

 

Yeah fair enough.... sorry if I caused you any harm in the past... i normally keep it civil, but certain events got to me and I wasn't. So karl, and y2, sorry for hurting you feelings for calling you simpleminded, and whatever else for the most part.

 

But I still think we should all follow the rule that if you wouldn't say something to a person's face, don't say it on here.

[Y2CJ41]

Small schools usually have the most inexperienced Coaches and that leads to lack of success.

 

Why does this happen so often?  Why are small school jobs used as stepping stones?  Why don't these coaches stay at the small schools?  Does this happen at the same rate in the classed sports?

[pin2win1]

Why does this happen so often?  Why are small school jobs used as stepping stones?  Why don't these coaches stay at the small schools?  Does this happen at the same rate in the classed sports?

 

Cause there isn't a walmart 5 minutes away from most small schools ;-) It's all walmart's fault!!!! (please note i am kidding, as in not serious at all.)

[Galagore]

I want to get into the "works hard" label.

 

What exactly are we talking about?

 

The kids working hard in practice, the staff working hard inside and outside of practice, the support group (parents and legends (X-wrestlers)? What ?

 

1.) Every successful wrestling program in the state works hard. Period, if they did not they would not be successful. They work hard in all aspects.

2.) Every program that works hard WILL BE SUCCESSFUL. Period. It is the measurement of that success that is in question.  

3.) Hard work is not enough, it takes experience and relationships to be successful. A coach, regardless of school size MUST understand:

     Recruiting from within- getting athletes to come out for wrestling

     Relationships with Coaches from within - example football coach to encourage dual sport participation

     Relationships with Coaches outside - successful programs need tough competition, can be difficult to schedule

     Relationships with teachers - to foresee problems before they arise

     Relationships with community - community support is required for building youth program (see Jeffersonville, best in the State)

     Organizational skills - mandatory for building parent support group, parent support group is a major part of success

     Psychology of youth- Wrestlers are teenagers and teenagers have problems that a coach MUST be involved with

 

And when all of these are in place and working like a well oiled machine your program will be successful.  The big question is how do we measure success. That is where the current discussion leads us.

 

In my opinion schools with a lack success (large or small) usually (not always) fail somewhere in the number 3 above. It is not due to a lack of effort or HARD WORK but a lack of knowledge or experience. Small schools usually have the most inexperienced Coaches and that leads to lack of success.

 

That said, if everything was equal and all Coaches knew everything equally school size would still matter. Less athletes = less in room = less success. But where do we draw the line. Bloomington South has 1745 students and we compete in classed sports with schools that have 1000-1200 more than us. Fair....not on paper but that is the facts. Even if we classed (3 classes)wrestling there would still be a huge disparity in school attendance. We would have to make 10 classes to be truly equal. Is that what the class wrestling folks want.

 

 

Just because we have a problem deciding exactly where to draw the line, should we just not draw one at all?  Looking at it based on percentage comparisons, a school with 350 students competing against one with 1200 more students is making a 343% jump.  One with 1750 versus 1200 more is making a 70% jump.  I think there is room in there somewhere for a line.

[Jimtown 138]

Why does this happen so often?  Why are small school jobs used as stepping stones?  Why don't these coaches stay at the small schools?  Does this happen at the same rate in the classed sports?

 

Y (I can call you Y right?), I just don't see it happening all of the time. Kerrn's been at JT for quite a while, just like you might be at Garrett. You're not doing it for the money. Maybe it's easier to get your foot in the door at a smaller school, I'm not sure.

[SlickRodz]

Why does this happen so often?  Why are small school jobs used as stepping stones?  Why don't these coaches stay at the small schools?  Does this happen at the same rate in the classed sports?

 

Not really that hard to justify. Think of it like a lob. Wrestlers and Coaches are competitive. The want themselves to be in the best situation possible.

Small school = small paychecks (usually)

Bigger school bigger paycheck (usually) For coaches who see themselves in the employment of the school systems (teaches who coach this matters)

Smaller school = less chance of short term success, hard but a fact

Smaller school = harder work

Smaller School = weaker facilities

Smaller School = smaller towns vs larger cities, with young coaches this matter a lot

 

Most young coaches starting out see themselves at the pinnacle of Coaching someday (I would hope). What is the Pinnacle? That is an individual decision. But for most Coaches it does not include a small High School.

 

Bloomington South is very lucky in that a legend in the Wrestling Community joined the teaching staff at South Last year. Dave Grossman (South grad) is a world redound trainer and has been not only at some very fine Universities over his career but has been the head trainer at the US Olympic training center in Colorado  and head trainer for the past 3 Olympic wrestling teams. He decided to "give back" to the sport he loved and is now heavily involved with South Wrestling.

 

Sometime late in their careers Great Coaches do the same thing for small schools. When they do there is usually success/.

[mikev]

wow......quite the conversation.......i think you guys should kiss and make up......no sense in being mad about someone elses opinion......but just to throw my 2 cents in......one fact you cannot push aside......the big schools have many more kids to choose from........penn (for instance) gets 100+ kids going out for wrestling.....they normally send 2-3 jv teams out to different tournaments on a given weekend.....their feeder middle schools even send out multiple teams....after watching their jv team this past winter, i know for a fact they could beat alot of other schools varsity line ups.......a small school would be lucky to get 20 total kids out for wrestling.......and most of the time cannot fill all the weight classes......so from a TEAM standpoint, i do feel the big schools will almost always have the advantage.....individually?.....well then wrestling becomes a one on one sport so school size becomes much less a factor.....where it does help the "big school" kid is from a competition standpoint.....better and more kids to wrestle just to make the team and more often than not, better schools on the schedule......

[KarlHungus]

Yeah fair enough.... sorry if I caused you any harm in the past... i normally keep it civil, but certain events got to me and I wasn't. So karl, and y2, sorry for hurting you feelings for calling you simpleminded, and whatever else for the most part.

 

But I still think we should all follow the rule that if you wouldn't say something to a person's face, don't say it on here.

 

I believe I have said several times that I am not the least bit offended by your constant insults.  You admit that this thread has "got to you".

[Galagore]

Not really that hard to justify. Think of it like a lob. Wrestlers and Coaches are competitive. The want themselves to be in the best situation possible.

Small school = small paychecks (usually)

Bigger school bigger paycheck (usually) For coaches who see themselves in the employment of the school systems (teaches who coach this matters)

Smaller school = less chance of short term success, hard but a fact

Smaller school = harder work

Smaller School = weaker facilities

Smaller School = smaller towns vs larger cities, with young coaches this matter a lot

 

Most young coaches starting out see themselves at the pinnacle of Coaching someday (I would hope). What is the Pinnacle? That is an individual decision. But for most Coaches it does not include a small High School.

 

Bloomington South is very lucky in that a legend in the Wrestling Community joined the teaching staff at South Last year. Dave Grossman (South grad) is a world redound trainer and has been not only at some very fine Universities over his career but has been the head trainer at the US Olympic training center in Colorado  and head trainer for the past 3 Olympic wrestling teams. He decided to "give back" to the sport he loved and is now heavily involved with South Wrestling.

 

Sometime late in their careers Great Coaches do the same thing for small schools. When they do there is usually success/.

 

Please, PLEASE tell me you are not referencing B. South as a small school.  Saying this because that is the way the end of this post reads.

[pin2win1]

I believe I have said several times that I am not the least bit offended by your constant insults.  You admit that this thread has "got to you".

 

First part of my post was just an apology karl, nothing more nothing less.

 

2nd part, just a rule we should all live by on any message board.... sorry you can't live up to it.

 

If thats not good enough for ya, well i feel for ya man... i do.

[SlickRodz]

Please, PLEASE tell me you are not referencing B. South as a small school.  Saying this because that is the way the end of this post reads.

 

No, just poor wording.

[Galagore]

Please, PLEASE tell me you are not referencing B. South as a small school.  Saying this because that is the way the end of this post reads.

 

Reread it and now I see that is not what you are saying.  I feel better now.

[pin2win1]

we are nearing page 60 jimtown...... almost there, almost there...

[Y2CJ41]

Y (I can call you Y right?), I just don't see it happening all of the time. Kerrn's been at JT for quite a while, just like you might be at Garrett. You're not doing it for the money. Maybe it's easier to get your foot in the door at a smaller school, I'm not sure.

Yes there are examples of where coaches have stayed at smaller schools.  Without knowing why they are still there you can't tell much.  For instance in my case, I may be waiting patiently for the right job to open up before I jump ship.  I am not going to jump ship to just any program, I will gladly stay at Garrett for 20 years without a problem because I love the community(FYI I grew up there if you didn't know).  Garrett has a special thing with me there, the parents, other coaches and the kids will tell you that in a hearbeat.  I believe almost everyone in our Garrett wrestling family knows that I could move on to another school at any time, but so far have chosen to stay at Garrett.  I am in no rush to move on, but if the right position opens up I will definitely take a look at it.

 

Sorry for the bragging, but that is my situation.

 

Off the top of my head I can name two great coaches that moved up from 2A to 4A or 5A, that being Randy Kearby and Jim Tonte.  As SlickRodz stated, they wanted a chance for more success so they moved to a bigger program.  I can say there are more examples on a lesser scale of good or great coaches moving up.

[Y2CJ41]

Not really that hard to justify. Think of it like a lob. Wrestlers and Coaches are competitive. The want themselves to be in the best situation possible.

Small school = small paychecks (usually)

Bigger school bigger paycheck (usually) For coaches who see themselves in the employment of the school systems (teaches who coach this matters)

Smaller school = less chance of short term success, hard but a fact

Smaller school = harder work

Smaller School = weaker facilities

Smaller School = smaller towns vs larger cities, with young coaches this matter a lot

 

Most young coaches starting out see themselves at the pinnacle of Coaching someday (I would hope). What is the Pinnacle? That is an individual decision. But for most Coaches it does not include a small High School.

 

Bloomington South is very lucky in that a legend in the Wrestling Community joined the teaching staff at South Last year. Dave Grossman (South grad) is a world redound trainer and has been not only at some very fine Universities over his career but has been the head trainer at the US Olympic training center in Colorado  and head trainer for the past 3 Olympic wrestling teams. He decided to "give back" to the sport he loved and is now heavily involved with South Wrestling.

 

Sometime late in their careers Great Coaches do the same thing for small schools. When they do there is usually success/.

Thank you for listing numerous reasons for a classed environment.  I really don't think small schools and more importantly teenage kids should be used as a stepping stone.  The coaches want to succeed and in order to do so, many feel there best options in our current system is to go to a bigger school.  This does NOT happen in other CLASSED sports.  Bill Sharpe stayed at Jimtown forever, so did Etzler at Woodlan and the Heritage coach and Bud Wright at Sheridan.  These are all great coaches that didn't feel they needed to go to Snider or Warren Central to have success.