Reasons for a class system for team state

[KarlHungus]

So enough about SB schools.... back to the topics.... why don;t teams with 1 or two studs make all their individuals better, if what makes great wrestlers great the time they spend in the room from Nov-Feb and not the rest of the year?

 

No one said the rest of the year didn't matter.  It matters a great deal.  My hypothetical scenario said that two kids of equal ability enter the their wrestling rooms on Nov. 1st.  One kid has better practice partners, better coaching, and better facilities.  Who makes more improvement when February comes?  Who is your money on?

[pin2win1]

No one said the rest of the year didn't matter.  It matters a great deal.  My hypothetical scenario said that two kids of equal ability enter the their wrestling rooms on Nov. 1st.  One kid has better practice partners, better coaching, and better facilities.  Who makes more improvement when February comes?  Who is your money on?

 

The one who works the hardest

[KarlHungus]

See my post right before this one.

 

Saw it after i posted. Sorry.

 

Just showing i am not a keyboard warrior only karl. Showing atleast i have the guts to say what i say to your face and not hide behind a screen.

 

You have courage of lion.  You should be proud of yourself.  But you did not answer the question.

 

Now I don't hve to go back, and look thanks, because you just said it right here.... its the practice partners in the room that makes all the individual wrestlers great. Without them you are at a huge disadvantage. Now, I agree practice partners do make wrestlers great, but the thing is, you are not limited to just your own practice partners for 8 months of the year, take advantage of it.

 

I agree, take advantage of the 8 months.  The thing is, the stud at Mishawaka is also taking advantage of tha time and then has the added advantage of the 4 months with better partners, coaches and facilities. 

[Y2CJ41]

They both work hard, its a tie.

[KarlHungus]

The one who works the hardest

 

Who is more likely to work harder?  A stud in a small school room who can whip everyone while smoking a cigerette and drinkin a cup of coffee....or a stud in a big school room who can't whip everyone and is challenged for every takedown, escape and reversal.

 

Remember, I said who is more likely to work harder?

[busstogate]

They both work hard, its a tie.

 

Not if he is from a small school, because...well you know!

[pin2win1]

I agree, take advantage of the 8 months.  The thing is, the stud at Mishawaka is also taking advantage of tha time and then has the added advantage of the 4 months with better partners, coaches and facilities.  

 

is the fact that they have 1600 students what gives them this advantage? Umm nope.... i think its because most of their individuals work their butts off during the other 8 months. If it was because of the numbers Penn would have dominated Mishawaka individually over the last 10 years.

 

You have courage of lion.  You should be proud of yourself.  But you did not answer the question.

 

I wouldn't say a lion.... i am just not afraid to speak my mind to you in person, and that is why i tell you how i see it like i do.....  what was that question again?

 

They both work hard, its a tie.

Sounds like it would be the wrestler who gets the point in the sudden death ot then.

 

[KarlHungus]

Clay was ranked because they beat a yorktown team that sat out some of their good wrestlers... this skewed the results. Besides, rankings don't mean jack. Its not like the coaches/sports writers/decbell don't see every single team out there, its a guess at best for them, and more often than not the larger schools get choosen because people know who the larger schools are be it through wrestling or something else.

 

Also are we going by computers? The same type of rankings that screw us over every year come the College football post season?

 

Wonderful argument by the way.  How do you propose we find out who is best?  Singet design.

 

Decbell does extensive comparison of dual meet and tournament scores.  Maligned computerized these comparisons for all the schools in the state.  Should I trust their stats and expertise or your guesses as to who is good and bad.

[Y2CJ41]

 

Sounds like it would be the wrestler who gets the point in the sudden death ot then.

 

So the kid with four months extra with better coaching and practice partners won't help him at all?

[pin2win1]

well.. if he is smoking on school grounds his butt should be suspended...... so i'd take the other guy...... plus if he is smoking that is really going to ruin his stamina.... plus if he is smoking on school grounds and the coach allows this to happen he is going to lose his coach.

 

 

 

Seriously who is going to work harder? No idea, depends which kid wants to.... even without practice partners the kid can still hit the weights, hit the track, hit the pool..... he can make sure he is in better condition, has more strength, and has the mental state of mind to overcome tough situations.

 

[pin2win1]

 

So the kid with four months extra with better coaching and practice partners won't help him at all?

 

Some might, but just because he has the better partners does not mean he would win..... lentz had better partners than cleveland, beck had better partners than ayresman.... they lost. I think maybe clevland and ayresman may have works just a little harder apparently.

[Y2CJ41]

well.. if he is smoking on school grounds his butt should be suspended...... so i'd take the other guy...... plus if he is smoking that is really going to ruin his stamina.... plus if he is smoking on school grounds and the coach allows this to happen he is going to lose his coach.

 

 

 

Seriously who is going to work harder? No idea, depends which kid wants to.... even without practice partners the kid can still hit the weights, hit the track, hit the pool..... he can make sure he is in better condition, has more strength, and has the mental state of mind to overcome tough situations.

 

None of those things simulate a semi-state quality match.  I have never heard of someone getting into wrestling shape by swimming or running around the track.

[KarlHungus]

 

is the fact that they have 1600 students what gives them this advantage? Umm nope.... i think its because most of their individuals work their butts off during the other 8 months. If it was because of the numbers Penn would have dominated Mishawaka individually over the last 10 years.

 

Mishawaka has stud practice partners due to the larger pool of athletes as well as their tradition, expectations, etc.  Penn has a large pool also but obviously not as many studs. Penn is closing the gap however.  LaVille, when they have a stud, is unlikely to have good practice partners due to the smaller pool.

[pin2win1]

So lets see if i got this progression down from what you two are getting at.

 

Bigger schools have more wrestlers, therefore their wrestlers can work harder... is this correct?

[Y2CJ41]

 

Some might, but just because he has the better partners does not mean he would win..... lentz had better partners than cleveland, beck had better partners than ayresman.... they lost. I think maybe clevland and ayresman may have works just a little harder apparently.

So you honestly feel that daily practice partners make ABSOLUTELY no difference in a wrestler's ability to make it further in the state tournament?

[KarlHungus]

 

Seriously who is going to work harder? No idea, depends which kid wants to.... even without practice partners the kid can still hit the weights, hit the track, hit the pool..... he can make sure he is in better condition, has more strength, and has the mental state of mind to overcome tough situations.

 

 

I asked who is more likely to work harder. A stud who is challenged every day or the one that is not.  The answer is obvious to me and I think to most rational thinking folks.

[Y2CJ41]

So lets see if i got this progression down from what you two are getting at.

 

Bigger schools have more wrestlers, therefore their wrestlers can work harder... is this correct?

They are going to be challenged more in practice therefore making them better wrestlers when comparing an equal wrestler of equal work ethic.  We are saying that two equal wrestlers one with great practice partners and one with poor practice partners the one with great practice partners is going to succeed more.

[KarlHungus]

 

Some might, but just because he has the better partners does not mean he would win..... lentz had better partners than cleveland, beck had better partners than ayresman.... they lost. I think maybe clevland and ayresman may have works just a little harder apparently.

 

Maybe Cleveland and Ayersman were just better wrestlers.  No one is saying that practice partners are the only factor at work here.

[KarlHungus]

They are going to be challenged more in practice therefore making them better wrestlers when comparing an equal wrestler of equal work ethic.  We are saying that two equal wrestlers one with great practice partners and one with poor practice partners the one with great practice partners is going to succeed more.

 

Ditto

[pin2win1]

Mishawaka has stud practice partners due to the larger pool of athletes as well as their tradition, expectations, etc.  Penn has a large pool also but obviously not as many studs. Penn is closing the gap however.  LaVille, when they have a stud, is unlikely to have good practice partners due to the smaller pool.

 

So what happens when you class individuals and some small schools have multiple studs, while others only have 1. Do we take away all but 1 stud from the school with multiple studs to "even" the playing field?

 

Mishawaka has stud practice partners due to the larger pool of athletes as well as their tradition, expectations, etc.  Penn has a large pool also but obviously not as many studs. Penn is closing the gap however.

 

My senior year we beat penn, this was despite losing the 3 previous matches to penn and Penn having way more wrestlers than us..... so under your logic we should have lost... can you tell me, what did we do to win.... Penn had the history on us, they had the numbers, so what did we do? We gave up because they were bigger, had more athletes to choose from, more practice partners, history on their side.... i guess we said oh well no biggie, we can't win ;-)

 

None of those things simulate a semi-state quality match.  I have never heard of someone getting into wrestling shape by swimming or running around the track.

i distingly remember this one wrestler breaking their arm during football eason, sit out of all wrestling action for almost 2 months, come back and practice for about a week, wrestle at the Mishawaka invitational and finishing 2nd, losing by 1 point in double OT... yeah no one can stay in elite form if they were already eliete without doing any wrestling at all.

[Y2CJ41]

 

i distingly remember this one wrestler breaking their arm during football eason, sit out of all wrestling action for almost 2 months, come back and practice for about a week, wrestle at the Mishawaka invitational and finishing 2nd, losing by 1 point in double OT... yeah no one can stay in elite form if they were already eliete without doing any wrestling at all.

You mean a wrestler that was already a superior wrestler than 99% in the state?  Why don't more wrestlers use this training method to state runner-up finishes?  This would be like a sure fire method if one wrestler did it and was so successful.  

 

 

[pin2win1]

They are going to be challenged more in practice therefore making them better wrestlers when comparing an equal wrestler of equal work ethic.  We are saying that two equal wrestlers one with great practice partners and one with poor practice partners the one with great practice partners is going to succeed more.

 

umm karl did ask who was more likely to work harder, the one with the practice partner or the one without.... did he not? he mde me choose which one would work harder. correct me if i am wrong.

 

Maybe Cleveland and Ayersman were just better wrestlers.  No one is saying that practice partners are the only factor at work here.

Ok maybe cleveland, but Beck did beat ayresman once before semi-state... so at some point Ayresman had to become a better wrestler than Beck... how could he have ever done such a thing with all of becks practice partners?

 

I asked who is more likely to work harder. A stud who is challenged every day or the one that is not.  The answer is obvious to me and I think to most rational thinking folks.

 

we do not all need others to challenge us.... sometimes the person who has to challenge us to our limits our ourselves.

[Y2CJ41]

So what happens when you class individuals and some small schools have multiple studs, while others only have 1. Do we take away all but 1 stud from the school with multiple studs to "even" the playing field?

Grasping for straws here, keep grasping for them.... one will come to you

 

My senior year we beat penn, this was despite losing the 3 previous matches to penn and Penn having way more wrestlers than us..... so under your logic we should have lost... can you tell me, what did we do to win.... Penn had the history on us, they had the numbers, so what did we do? We gave up because they were bigger, had more athletes to choose from, more practice partners, history on their side.... i guess we said oh well no biggie, we can't win ;-)

Congrats, you get a cookie for showing that a 5A school can beat another 5A school.  The cookie is in the mail, thanks for the story.

[pin2win1]

You mean a wrestler that was already a superior wrestler than 99% in the state?  Why don't more wrestlers use this training method to state runner-up finishes?  This would be like a sure fire method if one wrestler did it and was so successful.

 

Hey a stud's a stud....... plus those who are not injured can still practice against their practice partners, even if they suck so bad.

 

Y2, quite frankly i'd say it to individual, if you didn't win state there it is because of 1 of 3 reasons. 1) You were seriously injured and were not longer cleared to compete, 2) You reaced your full potential and that just wasn't enough, 3) You didn't work hard enough.

[Y2CJ41]

Ok maybe cleveland, but Beck did beat ayresman once before semi-state... so at some point Ayresman had to become a better wrestler than Beck... how could he have ever done such a thing with all of becks practice partners?

Three one point or overtime matches don't show that there was much if any improvement.  If those two wrestle 10 times, its 5 wins each.  Neither is superior than the other.

 

we do not all need others to challenge us.... sometimes the person who has to challenge us to our limits our ourselves.

The ship is sinking better get out the life raft, I know if I answer the question my whole premise is going to go down the tubes, so I will divert attention to something else.  Great strategy, but it is not working.  Ten posts worth of dodging the question shows you know the right answer, but can't come to terms with typing it out.