driller Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 The organization of the State tournament is actually pretty good. Just have to drive far if you don't live in the middle of the state where they normally run the event. Also, team tournaments are very rare. Except for weekly league dual meets, almost everything is individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 It's the fast food companies fault I'm fat, TV makes me violent, Public schools are why I can't read, I'm not a good wrestler because I go to a small school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 You are right.. Class wrestling will not help the 4-5A schools that struggle to field a full team even after that team has had much success.. I just hope that all the Class wrestling supporters understand that they (Small Schools) are not the only ones struggling to field a full team.. Big schools have obstacles as well which is the reason that I have always and will always be a NON-class wrestling supporter.. Many big schools have the same chance or lack there of to win a team state championship as small schools for one reason or another.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 So why are the largest schools in the state not winning the Team Title every year? Just asking... Mishawaka and Lawrence North are both 5A schools. The biggest school doesn't always win each class in football either. Mater Dei is a different animal due to being a private/parochial school. When they have 600 students, they are not equal to the 600 students at a public school. Parental involvement, economic factors, more parents and siblings with college education, etc all attribute to them not being a true small school. I agree on the point about Mater Dei - it isn't just applicable to Wrestling as you see the same names on the rosters for all the other sports too and they are successful (much to their credit). But I think everyone is operating under the assumption that higher numbers of students is somehow translated into the surity of more kids in the wrestling room. In my expirence it just isn't true. Sure the CHANCE is greater to have the numbers show up, but the reality of it all is Wrestling is a sport for the tough...and truly tough people are actually very rare. You cannot plot out where Tough is going to appear on the census. Of course there are numerous other variables that play into account whether a school is good at one sport or another. On the surface though, if you were to build a program would you rather choose from 200 boys to build the program or 800? You'd be an idiot to not say 800. Its just like saying you want to hit the lottery, do you want 5 tickets or 1000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'll say yes to those questions too. But there are also disadvantages for big schools and advantages for small schools. The advantages/disadvantages all seem to equal out when 75% of the students are from big schools and therefore approximately 75% of the state caliber athletes are from big schools and big schools end up having 75% of the state qualifiers in wrestling. Each school no matter the size has to deal with issues, big schools aren't immune to problems such as swain as stated. Small schools aren't immune to them either. The biggest difference its easier to replace the kids at big school. Your argument that there should be 50% of the state qualifiers from small schools because they have 50% of the sectional entries is like saying 50% of the Division 1 basketball players in Indiana should be from small schools because each team has 5 starters. If small schools have 25% of the students they are approximately 1/3 as likely as a big school to have a state caliber athlete in wrestling or of having a Division 1 caliber basketball player. Back to the purpose of high school athletics, is it to find one true champion or is it another purpose? If its to have one true champion, then I cannot disagree that a single class system is the way to go. However, I feel high school athletics' purpose is something different. Also, why do so many other states and successful states all have class wrestling? Why did they go to classed wrestling in the 60's, and 70's ? I think one of the main purposes of high school athletics is to build character, by teaching individuals to set goals, develop work ethic, deal with adversity, etc. I think wrestling and its single class individual tournament does a good job of this. It provides the opportunity for individuals to set goals in line with what they are capable of attaining (whether it be regional qualifier or state champ), it gives them the opportunity to work hard for that goal, and it can teach them that sometimes when they work hard they will attain their goal and sometimes they won't (part of me thinks that one of the most important part of high school athletics is learning the lessons of the latter). Can a multiple class system do the same thing? Maybe, but I don't think it can do it better. From your arguments it seems that you think the purpose of high school wrestling is to grow the sport and make Indiana better known as a wrestling state and thereby create more opportunities for Indiana wrestlers in college. I don't think this is a bad goal. I am just not convinced that class wrestling is necessarily the answer for accomplishing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'll say yes to those questions too. But there are also disadvantages for big schools and advantages for small schools. The advantages/disadvantages all seem to equal out when 75% of the students are from big schools and therefore approximately 75% of the state caliber athletes are from big schools and big schools end up having 75% of the state qualifiers in wrestling. Each school no matter the size has to deal with issues, big schools aren't immune to problems such as swain as stated. Small schools aren't immune to them either. The biggest difference its easier to replace the kids at big school. You are making the case for a classed team tournament here, not individual I'm making a case for both. In order for my individuals to do well they need good practice partners, more time on the mat and probably even better weight lifting equipment and more mat space in the practice room. Good practice partners are harder to find at a small school. I know from experience as I had none what-so-ever in high school. As a 112lber, I had to wrestle up to 135-152lbs to get a decent workout in. In college I had great practice partners that helped me improve drastically. I had the same work ethic, heart, determination in high school and college, but the variables of coaching, practice partners and facilities helped me tremendously. At a small school it is a lot harder for those variables to come together, but at a big school there is a greater chance of this happening. FACILITIES! put a 5A team in here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Yeah, somewhere around that number 55-65%.. All i am saying is, there are big school that have problems fielding an entire team as well.. We may have more students, but we still have hurdles as well to jump over in order to get kids out.. Add to the fact that I coach in an area where sitting the bench or being on the JV basketball team is better than being a stud at another sport, It is a struggle to get kids out for wrestling at even the 5A schools.. I know of many other 5A schools that have the same problems that we are facing at this point.. What is there to do to help those schools out? No matter the size of the school, we all have obstacles to overcome to field a team and have success. The biggest difference is the depth of the individuals that you have in your school compared to mine. Going to a class system will not hurt your school and honestly it would have very little affect on the team. Going to a class system would help the small schools and their programs. If we have more kids out for the sport statewide and more quality teams top to bottom then it is good for the sport correct? I am trying to understand the logic. In an earlier post you said that you could find maybe 2 kids at your school that were athletes and not already participating in another sport. So, if we change to class wrestling that would be enough of an influence to get those 2 guys to participate in wrestling? I'm not concerned about my school in particular. We were maxed out with kids at about 28 all season. The small schools I am concerned about are the ones with 10-15 kids at most. Those are the ones that are struggling and could very well be on the chopping block in this economy. An AD would have a hard time justifying cutting a sport with 25-30 kids on the roster. My point about the extra two kids is that if I lose a kid, due to grades, injury, moving, etc its a lot harder to replace him with another kid even close to his ability. At a bigger school it would be easier to find a replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I know of a couple 5A teams that can fit in that room.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cewrestlingfan Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'll say yes to those questions too. But there are also disadvantages for big schools and advantages for small schools. The advantages/disadvantages all seem to equal out when 75% of the students are from big schools and therefore approximately 75% of the state caliber athletes are from big schools and big schools end up having 75% of the state qualifiers in wrestling. Each school no matter the size has to deal with issues, big schools aren't immune to problems such as swain as stated. Small schools aren't immune to them either. The biggest difference its easier to replace the kids at big school. You are making the case for a classed team tournament here, not individual I'm making a case for both. In order for my individuals to do well they need good practice partners, more time on the mat and probably even better weight lifting equipment and more mat space in the practice room. Good practice partners are harder to find at a small school. I know from experience as I had none what-so-ever in high school. As a 112lber, I had to wrestle up to 135-152lbs to get a decent workout in. In college I had great practice partners that helped me improve drastically. I had the same work ethic, heart, determination in high school and college, but the variables of coaching, practice partners and facilities helped me tremendously. At a small school it is a lot harder for those variables to come together, but at a big school there is a greater chance of this happening. FACILITIES! put a 5A team in here! At least you guys have a wrestling room. Our large 4A school has to move mats every day to our practice area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Always been partial to this one This is the FUNNIEST representation I have seen for this discussion EVAR!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Always been partial to this one This is the FUNNIEST representation I have seen for this discussion EVAR!!!!! I'm hearing Ghetto Boys singing "Still" loud in the background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'll say yes to those questions too. But there are also disadvantages for big schools and advantages for small schools. The advantages/disadvantages all seem to equal out when 75% of the students are from big schools and therefore approximately 75% of the state caliber athletes are from big schools and big schools end up having 75% of the state qualifiers in wrestling. Each school no matter the size has to deal with issues, big schools aren't immune to problems such as swain as stated. Small schools aren't immune to them either. The biggest difference its easier to replace the kids at big school. You are making the case for a classed team tournament here, not individual I'm making a case for both. In order for my individuals to do well they need good practice partners, more time on the mat and probably even better weight lifting equipment and more mat space in the practice room. Good practice partners are harder to find at a small school. I know from experience as I had none what-so-ever in high school. As a 112lber, I had to wrestle up to 135-152lbs to get a decent workout in. In college I had great practice partners that helped me improve drastically. I had the same work ethic, heart, determination in high school and college, but the variables of coaching, practice partners and facilities helped me tremendously. At a small school it is a lot harder for those variables to come together, but at a big school there is a greater chance of this happening. FACILITIES! put a 5A team in here! At least you guys have a wrestling room. Our large 4A school has to move mats every day to our practice area. Room, it's a hallway!.....will class wrestling help us get a better facility? Probably not....we are suppose to get a new room, probably won?t happen.....but with more State level recognition, it most defiantly wouldn?t hurt our chances?If more people in the community backed us, and then seen what we have to deal with, all of the ?Probably Not?s? could change to ?Probably will?s? We also have to roll mats out onto the indoor track above the basketball floor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I just really like posting that picture....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 So why are the largest schools in the state not winning the Team Title every year? Just asking... Mishawaka and Lawrence North are both 5A schools. The biggest school doesn't always win each class in football either. Mater Dei is a different animal due to being a private/parochial school. When they have 600 students, they are not equal to the 600 students at a public school. Parental involvement, economic factors, more parents and siblings with college education, etc all attribute to them not being a true small school. I agree on the point about Mater Dei - it isn't just applicable to Wrestling as you see the same names on the rosters for all the other sports too and they are successful (much to their credit). But I think everyone is operating under the assumption that higher numbers of students is somehow translated into the surity of more kids in the wrestling room. In my expirence it just isn't true. Sure the CHANCE is greater to have the numbers show up, but the reality of it all is Wrestling is a sport for the tough...and truly tough people are actually very rare. You cannot plot out where Tough is going to appear on the census. Of course there are numerous other variables that play into account whether a school is good at one sport or another. On the surface though, if you were to build a program would you rather choose from 200 boys to build the program or 800? You'd be an idiot to not say 800. Its just like saying you want to hit the lottery, do you want 5 tickets or 1000? I wouldn't hit the lotto if I had EVERY ticket! LOL In a perfect world the math makes sense...we just don't live in a perfect world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I had to spend $100 to win $5 on scratch off's! We'll keep posting 100, 1000, 1000000 times just to get a chance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cewrestlingfan Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'll say yes to those questions too. But there are also disadvantages for big schools and advantages for small schools. The advantages/disadvantages all seem to equal out when 75% of the students are from big schools and therefore approximately 75% of the state caliber athletes are from big schools and big schools end up having 75% of the state qualifiers in wrestling. Each school no matter the size has to deal with issues, big schools aren't immune to problems such as swain as stated. Small schools aren't immune to them either. The biggest difference its easier to replace the kids at big school. You are making the case for a classed team tournament here, not individual I'm making a case for both. In order for my individuals to do well they need good practice partners, more time on the mat and probably even better weight lifting equipment and more mat space in the practice room. Good practice partners are harder to find at a small school. I know from experience as I had none what-so-ever in high school. As a 112lber, I had to wrestle up to 135-152lbs to get a decent workout in. In college I had great practice partners that helped me improve drastically. I had the same work ethic, heart, determination in high school and college, but the variables of coaching, practice partners and facilities helped me tremendously. At a small school it is a lot harder for those variables to come together, but at a big school there is a greater chance of this happening. FACILITIES! put a 5A team in here! At least you guys have a wrestling room. Our large 4A school has to move mats every day to our practice area. Room, it's a hallway!.....will class wrestling help us get a better facility? Probably not....we are suppose to get a new room, probably won?t happen.....but with more State level recognition, it most defiantly wouldn?t hurt our chances?If more people in the community backed us, and then seen what we have to deal with, all of the ?Probably Not?s? could change to ?Probably will?s? We also have to roll mats out onto the indoor track above the basketball floor! We roll our mats out behind the bleachers in the gym. We had to make sure we were done with practice early today (our last practice before semi-state) to push the bleachers out for a middle school basketball game. Just goes to show where wrestling falls in its importance at our school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Middle School Basketball! wow...they are still playing middle school basketball where your from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cewrestlingfan Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Middle School Basketball! wow...they are still playing middle school basketball where your from Yeah, they're still playing. I'm not sure why they were playing at our high school instead of at the middle school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Maybe they heard about the Middle State Wrestling Championships, got really upset because they never thought of that great idea, and are having the MS State Basketball finals at your high school! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBolt Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Middle School Basketball! wow...they are still playing middle school basketball where your from Yeah, they're still playing. I'm not sure why they were playing at our high school instead of at the middle school. I am betting it is because you have the softest hallways in the School System... ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starsaw Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 It's beddy bye time gentlemen....this will continue I am sure.....I need to sleep on a few thoughts anyways, and come out guns blazin tomorrow! Watch out!....hahahahahahahahahahah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Back to the purpose of high school athletics, is it to find one true champion or is it another purpose? If its to have one true champion, then I cannot disagree that a single class system is the way to go. However, I feel high school athletics' purpose is something different. This is my opinion on what high school athletics are supposed to be. To me, sports is real life on a smaller scale. I had alot of success in the sport, and many failures. However, the wins and losses themselves aren't what matter. It's what you've learned from the wins and losses that matters, and how you incorporate them into your life. Like the saying goes, "it's the journey, not the destination." This is something that a class system can't do any better (or worse) than a single class system. Also, why do so many other states and successful states all have class wrestling? Why do so many unsuccessful states have class wrestling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Also, why do so many other states and successful states all have class wrestling? Why do so many unsuccessful states have class wrestling? I wouldn't call wrestling unsuccessful in non-traditional wrestling states like Florida, North Carolina or even in states like Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, etc. Just because they don't bring home 20 AA's at Fargo doesn't mean they aren't successful. Just because you or I don't deem them better than Indiana, doesn't mean they aren't successful. States like Kansas, Missouri, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, and Nebraska are all better than us in wrestling and very close to us in population and distance. I surely wouldn't consider those state weak wrestling states. Guess what, they all have class wrestling. Is it ironic? I think not. There are only three states that surround us that I would consider us better than, Kentucky, Tennessee, and West Virginia. Every other state that is one state or two states away is better than us. Maybe we should strive to be more like our southern neighbor in Kentucky because they are simply doing splendid with a one class system. Maybe we could be like Kentucky, Delaware, Hawaii, Vermont or Mississippi, since they all have one class systems. They obviously are kicking butt with that one class system aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Isn't California one class?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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