Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I came from a pretty small school When i graduated we had an enrollment of just over 1100 How would you like an enrollment of 550? 1100 is not small! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oregon has 5 classes now, but should've kept it at three. Three was plenty. However, we have to live with five now. What its done is made other in season tournament, much more exciting because you have a lot of interesting matchups and the best always find a way to meet up. It hasn't done anything to diminish the quality wrestlers in our state. What its done is increased numbers and increased our fan base. Our state tournament went from about 5000 fans to 9200 when they added the 2 additional classes. Are those 4200 new fans or just existing fans that went to state because their kid happened to be in one of those 2 extra classes? If the latter is the case, I don't see how it increased fan interest. Did it Increase the fan base for the state tournament? Absolutely. But it says nothing of them being new fans to the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champion Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I came from a pretty small school When i graduated we had an enrollment of just over 1100 How would you like an enrollment of 550? 1100 is not small! Nice one Y2... a little cut an paste action.... i said i came from a pretty small school... not big by any means...... when I entered as a freshman there were only 800 and something kids... they were good before they had 1100. and as i said Indian Creek is having no problems competing on an Individual level with these others school they have 600 kids... Union County does fine with 500 Kids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 My high school had around 600 and I loved the small school atmosphere. There were some summer practices I'd get one on one intstruction with the head coach for the whole practice. While were at it, they should save more room in college for small school kids because having smaller classrooms and knowing your teachers better is a hinderance. Therefore, they need to save 50% of enrollment spots for the smallest 25% of students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I am totally against class wrestling, at an individual level and I came from a pretty small school. I think it would be a pretty good idea to have different classes at the team tournament level, so those small schools can attract interest in the sport and they can feel good about themselves. I do not believe that your school size should effect whether or not you are the state champ in your weight class. Why have 3 state champs.... who is the real state champ? In two years you are going to see a small school like Indian Creek have a possible 3 state champions with Reese, Raley, and Stevenson. They have an enrollment of 600, how do you think those kids would feel if they won the state tournament in smallest division and were not recognized as the real state champion because a kid from larger high school won the other divisions. When i graduated we had an enrollment of just over 1100, not a small school but not a large school by any means. One season we had 9 kids ranked in the top 10 in the state. We have had multiple state champions. If you are a wrestling program and your feeder system does not work.... FIX IT. please do not blame it on not have different classes. Those three would celebrate their state titles the same way David Taylor, the Stiebers, etc do in Ohio. Or how other class state champions and placers celebrate, there would be no difference. The kids will go out and try to achieve the highest goal possible during the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oregon has 5 classes now, but should've kept it at three. Three was plenty. However, we have to live with five now. What its done is made other in season tournament, much more exciting because you have a lot of interesting matchups and the best always find a way to meet up. It hasn't done anything to diminish the quality wrestlers in our state. What its done is increased numbers and increased our fan base. Our state tournament went from about 5000 fans to 9200 when they added the 2 additional classes. Are those 4200 new fans or just existing fans that went to state because their kid happened to be in one of those 2 extra classes? If that's the case, I don't see how it increased fan interest. Did it Increase the fan base for the state tournament? Absolutely. But it says nothing of them being new fans to the sport. Maybe so but regardless you have all 9200 at the same place at the same time, generating more excitement and atmosphere. Drawing more numbers of wrestlers to the sport while not diminishing the quality of wrestling. Sounds good to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oregon has 5 classes now, but should've kept it at three. Three was plenty. However, we have to live with five now. What its done is made other in season tournament, much more exciting because you have a lot of interesting matchups and the best always find a way to meet up. It hasn't done anything to diminish the quality wrestlers in our state. What its done is increased numbers and increased our fan base. Our state tournament went from about 5000 fans to 9200 when they added the 2 additional classes. Are those 4200 new fans or just existing fans that went to state because their kid happened to be in one of those 2 extra classes? If the latter is the case, I don't see how it increased fan interest. Did it Increase the fan base for the state tournament? Absolutely. But it says nothing of them being new fans to the sport. Sports have to be viewed to gain new fans. The more people that are exposed, the more likely the fan base will grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Iowa isn't top 5, they have had a good run of kids the past few years. 1. PA 2. Ohio 3. Illinois 4. New Jersey 5. California No way Iowa is better than those five states year in year out. They might top a few of those teams every few years, but not consistently enough to be considered a top 5 state. Survey people from across the nation and very few will put Iowa in the top 5. My data just goes back the past 5 years, not 10 or 15 or 20. Would the past 5 years constitute every few years? It looks like there is a strong correlation between a state's population and the strength of its wrestling. This and whether or not the state has a tradition of wrestling seem to explain more than whether or not the state has class wrestling or not (since there are some states that have classes that do better than you would expect based on their population and some that don't). States 1 million people bigger than us and how we stack up. California- Worse Texas- Better than New York- Worse Florida- Even Illinois- Worse Pennsylvania- Worse Ohio- Worse Michigan- Worse Georgia- Better than North Carolina- Better than New Jersey- Worse Virginia- Even with States we are within 1 million people of and how we stack up Washington- Even Arizona- Better Massachusetts- Better Tennessee- Better Missouri- Worse Maryland- Better Wisconsin- Worse Minnesota- Worse Other states that are better than us that have less population Oregon Oklahoma Iowa Kansas Other states we are even with that are lesser population Colorado and Nebraska Which of the above states are classed? I really don't know. What else might explain the differences and what can we do to bridge the gap? Class wrestling might help (still not convinced), but there have to be other ways Indiana can improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Maybe so but regardless you have all 9200 at the same place at the same time, generating more excitement and atmosphere. Drawing more numbers of wrestlers to the sport while not diminishing the quality of wrestling. Sounds good to me. I agree with you, and a simple expanding the State Finals would achieve this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I am totally against class wrestling, at an individual level and I came from a pretty small school. I think it would be a pretty good idea to have different classes at the team tournament level, so those small schools can attract interest in the sport and they can feel good about themselves. I do not believe that your school size should effect whether or not you are the state champ in your weight class. Why have 3 state champs.... who is the real state champ? In two years you are going to see a small school like Indian Creek have a possible 3 state champions with Reese, Raley, and Stevenson. They have an enrollment of 600, how do you think those kids would feel if they won the state tournament in smallest division and were not recognized as the real state champion because a kid from larger high school won the other divisions. When i graduated we had an enrollment of just over 1100, not a small school but not a large school by any means. One season we had 9 kids ranked in the top 10 in the state. We have had multiple state champions. If you are a wrestling program and your feeder system does not work.... FIX IT. please do not blame it on not have different classes. Those three would celebrate their state titles the same way David Taylor, the Stiebers, etc do in Ohio. Or how other class state champions and placers celebrate, there would be no difference. The kids will go out and try to achieve the highest goal possible during the season. Who is the best 189 lb wrestler in Ohio? I cant tell but i can tell you the top 3... maybe unless the 2nd place in one division is better than the champ in another.. Im confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Oregon has 5 classes now, but should've kept it at three. Three was plenty. However, we have to live with five now. What its done is made other in season tournament, much more exciting because you have a lot of interesting matchups and the best always find a way to meet up. It hasn't done anything to diminish the quality wrestlers in our state. What its done is increased numbers and increased our fan base. Our state tournament went from about 5000 fans to 9200 when they added the 2 additional classes. Are those 4200 new fans or just existing fans that went to state because their kid happened to be in one of those 2 extra classes? If the latter is the case, I don't see how it increased fan interest. Did it Increase the fan base for the state tournament? Absolutely. But it says nothing of them being new fans to the sport. So the increased interest in the state finals is not good for the sport? You increase the number of participants 40% and get a 45% increase in attendance. I would say that there are new fans of the sport that wouldn't be at the state finals before. Increased interest and exposure of the sport is GOOOOOD for the sport, not bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Which of the above states are classed? I really don't know. What else might explain the differences and what can we do to bridge the gap? Class wrestling might help (still not convinced), but there have to be other ways Indiana can improve. Bold Classless states California- Worse Texas- Better than New York- Worse Florida- Even Illinois- Worse Pennsylvania- Worse Ohio- Worse Michigan- Worse Georgia- Better than North Carolina- Better than New Jersey- Worse Virginia- Even with States we are within 1 million people of and how we stack up Washington- Even Arizona- Better Massachusetts- Better Tennessee- Better Missouri- Worse Maryland- Better Wisconsin- Worse Minnesota- Worse Other states that are better than us that have less population Oregon Oklahoma Iowa Kansas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Maybe so but regardless you have all 9200 at the same place at the same time, generating more excitement and atmosphere. Drawing more numbers of wrestlers to the sport while not diminishing the quality of wrestling. Sounds good to me. I agree with you, and a simple expanding the State Finals would achieve this. Something tells me we have agreed on this in the past. LOL. I think your system outlined earlier is an interesting compromise but I don't think the IHSAA would ever attempt something that complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Those three would celebrate their state titles the same way David Taylor, the Stiebers, etc do in Ohio. Or how other class state champions and placers celebrate, there would be no difference. The kids will go out and try to achieve the highest goal possible during the season. It is an achievement to win a classed state title, that's not in dispute for me. But the achievement is much more sweeter if it's one class. Sure Taylor, the Steibers, etc should celebrate their D2 or 3 titles. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say they'd rather be the only weight class champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Something tells me we have agreed on this in the past. LOL. I think your system outlined earlier is an interesting compromise but I don't think the IHSAA would ever attempt something that complicated. AND it comes full circle... as it always does. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I am totally against class wrestling, at an individual level and I came from a pretty small school. I think it would be a pretty good idea to have different classes at the team tournament level, so those small schools can attract interest in the sport and they can feel good about themselves. I do not believe that your school size should effect whether or not you are the state champ in your weight class. Why have 3 state champs.... who is the real state champ? In two years you are going to see a small school like Indian Creek have a possible 3 state champions with Reese, Raley, and Stevenson. They have an enrollment of 600, how do you think those kids would feel if they won the state tournament in smallest division and were not recognized as the real state champion because a kid from larger high school won the other divisions. When i graduated we had an enrollment of just over 1100, not a small school but not a large school by any means. One season we had 9 kids ranked in the top 10 in the state. We have had multiple state champions. If you are a wrestling program and your feeder system does not work.... FIX IT. please do not blame it on not have different classes. Those three would celebrate their state titles the same way David Taylor, the Stiebers, etc do in Ohio. Or how other class state champions and placers celebrate, there would be no difference. The kids will go out and try to achieve the highest goal possible during the season. Who is the best 189 lb wrestler in Ohio? I cant tell but i can tell you the top 3... maybe unless the 2nd place in one division is better than the champ in another.. Im confused Probably the DI state champion. I can tell you who the best 171lber is, Chris Phillips of Monroeville 119- Hunter Stieber- Monroeville 125- Logan Stieber of Monroeville Those are all DIII(small school) guys. I know they are the best by there performances in offseason tournaments and tournaments like the Ironman where the best of the best meet. Other guys I know are the best, David Taylor, Collin Palmer, etc. Do you think the other 171lbs champions are ashamed of their medals because Chris Phillips would probably beat them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
100% Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I believe class in better for the kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Those three would celebrate their state titles the same way David Taylor, the Stiebers, etc do in Ohio. Or how other class state champions and placers celebrate, there would be no difference. The kids will go out and try to achieve the highest goal possible during the season. It is an achievement to win a classed state title, that's not in dispute for me. But the achievement is much more sweeter if it's one class. Sure Taylor, the Steibers, etc should celebrate their D2 or 3 titles. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say they'd rather be the only weight class champion. But what about Johnny Noneck who got 4th place at at D3 and was contacted by John Carroll to wrestle there because he was seen at the state finals, got his teacher's license and now coaches. He may not be any better then a 2 time SS qualifier in Indiana that never gets recruited. y2.....How many of Garrett's state qualifiers were ever recruited before they became state qualifiers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Those are all DIII(small school) guys. I know they are the best by there performances in offseason tournaments and tournaments like the Ironman where the best of the best meet. Other guys I know are the best, David Taylor, Collin Palmer, etc. Do you think the other 171lbs champions are ashamed of their medals because Chris Phillips would probably beat them? They are probably just as proud as whoever will get 3rd at 171 at state this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Those three would celebrate their state titles the same way David Taylor, the Stiebers, etc do in Ohio. Or how other class state champions and placers celebrate, there would be no difference. The kids will go out and try to achieve the highest goal possible during the season. It is an achievement to win a classed state title, that's not in dispute for me. But the achievement is much more sweeter if it's one class. Sure Taylor, the Steibers, etc should celebrate their D2 or 3 titles. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say they'd rather be the only weight class champion. Is it "sweeter?" Sure, I don't disagree, but is it what is best for the sport? No, it is not. Could you imagine the wrestlers that wouldn't get recognized in Ohio if they were one class? Those kids that didn't make it to state wouldn't be exposed to the numerous college coaches(small/classed schools and big schools) if they didn't wrestle in the Schott? Your idea is great, but the realist in me says that won't happen and would be way too complicated for the IHSAA to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Those three would celebrate their state titles the same way David Taylor, the Stiebers, etc do in Ohio. Or how other class state champions and placers celebrate, there would be no difference. The kids will go out and try to achieve the highest goal possible during the season. It is an achievement to win a classed state title, that's not in dispute for me. But the achievement is much more sweeter if it's one class. Sure Taylor, the Steibers, etc should celebrate their D2 or 3 titles. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say they'd rather be the only weight class champion. But what about Johnny Noneck who got 4th place at at D3 and was contacted by John Carroll to wrestle there because he was seen at the state finals, got his teacher's license and now coaches. He may not be any better then a 2 time SS qualifier in Indiana that never gets recruited. y2.....How many of Garrett's state qualifiers were ever recruited before they became state qualifiers? Only one kid that I know of that was recruited before they went to state, that was the kid who placed at Fargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Do you think the other 171lbs champions are ashamed of their medals because Chris Phillips would probably beat them? If I was one of the other 171 lbs. champions, I'd throw my medal in the nearest trash bucket just to prove a point on how much classes suck. ;D I'M KIDDING!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Those are all DIII(small school) guys. I know they are the best by there performances in offseason tournaments and tournaments like the Ironman where the best of the best meet. Other guys I know are the best, David Taylor, Collin Palmer, etc. Do you think the other 171lbs champions are ashamed of their medals because Chris Phillips would probably beat them? They are probably just as proud as whoever will get 3rd at 171 at state this year. So is their school and community not going to celebrate their state championships? Is the principal going to say to them... we aren't going to put a picture of you in the hallway because you aren't the "true" state champion, we know Phillips would mop the mat with you? Do you think the newspaper article will say "Joe Schmoe Non-True State Champion?" Do you think he will get a ring that says "untrue State Champion" on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Your idea is great, but the realist in me says that won't happen and would be way too complicated for the IHSAA to consider. Yeah, you're right. IHSAA can't even figure out wrestlebacks. NO WAY they can figure out my idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 If I was one of the other 171 lbs. champions, I'd throw my medal in the nearest trash bucket just to prove a point on how much classes suck. ;D I'M KIDDING!!! I think I got a boo for this... I thought it was hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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