Fabio Jr. Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 fact. but how does that gauge our strength as a state you can compare those results to other states but did they send the absolute best? did we send our absolute best. you said it yourself its a guideline nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 fact. but how does that gauge our strength as a state you can compare those results to other states but did they send the absolute best? did we send our absolute best. you said it yourself its a guideline nothing more. You're right, I did say guideline. Which means there's some small fluctuations. Indiana was 11th, so does that mean we're actually the 11th strongest? No, but I'd have a hard time believing we're any worse than 20th. Iowa rated as #1. Do I think they're actually #1? No, but they're in the top 5 I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Iowa isn't top 5, they have had a good run of kids the past few years. 1. PA 2. Ohio 3. Illinois 4. New Jersey 5. California No way Iowa is better than those five states year in year out. They might top a few of those teams every few years, but not consistently enough to be considered a top 5 state. Survey people from across the nation and very few will put Iowa in the top 5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 fact. but how does that gauge our strength as a state you can compare those results to other states but did they send the absolute best? did we send our absolute best. you said it yourself its a guideline nothing more. You're right, I did say guideline. Which means there's some small fluctuations. Indiana was 11th, so does that mean we're actually the 11th strongest? No, but I'd have a hard time believing we're any worse than 20th. Iowa rated as #1. Do I think they're actually #1? No, but they're in the top 5 I'd say. You said it was the best way to judge a state's strength first. Then you said it is just a guideline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 there is still a flaw y2s response is evident of that as well you cant base the entire strength of a state of results of one freestyle tournament Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 and the debate goes on and on..... Question: How can it be proven that class wrestling is beneficial? How can it be proven that single class wrestling is detrimental? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Can we get some facts to back up the oregon comments?? Oh and wc, your statements are flawed b/c they don't fall in line (manipulated) to favor that of the classies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 well there is that, but when opinion and outside factors have an effect on the results you have flawed data Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 opinions always create flawed data. Inherent bias causes us to see what we want in data and to interpret the data as we see fit. Since I am late to this argument: Against individual series class wrestling In favor of a team wrestling series format Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Iowa isn't top 5, they have had a good run of kids the past few years. 1. PA 2. Ohio 3. Illinois 4. New Jersey 5. California No way Iowa is better than those five states year in year out. They might top a few of those teams every few years, but not consistently enough to be considered a top 5 state. Survey people from across the nation and very few will put Iowa in the top 5. My data just goes back the past 5 years, not 10 or 15 or 20. Would the past 5 years constitute every few years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 You said it was the best way to judge a state's strength first. Then you said it is just a guideline. Sometimes a guideline is the best or only way to judge a state's strength. What do you want to do, bring every kid from every state together to determine the real state rankings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Maybe the reason the attendance is up for the finals is because its almost the equivalent of combining Semi State and State. Would we still keep the Semi States? The quality of matches will be down at state and I wouldn't be as interested in first round matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 You said it was the best way to judge a state's strength first. Then you said it is just a guideline. Sometimes a guideline is the best or only way to judge a state's strength. What do you want to do, bring every kid from every state together to determine the real state rankings? I think that Fargo is the best way to compare states that we will ever have. No we don't send all of our best, but I would think we send close to an equal percentage of our best that other states do. It will not correlate perfectly but it is a good measuring stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 and the debate goes on and on..... Question: How can it be proven that class wrestling is beneficial? How can it be proven that single class wrestling is detrimental? Oregon has 5 classes now, but should've kept it at three. Three was plenty. However, we have to live with five now. What its done is made other in season tournament, much more exciting because you have a lot of interesting matchups and the best always find a way to meet up. It hasn't done anything to diminish the quality wrestlers in our state. What its done is increased numbers and increased our fan base. Our state tournament went from about 5000 fans to 9200 when they added the 2 additional classes. Now for all those people who think having one state title is the only way to go, does football, basketball, baseball, track, soccer, softball or volleyball have one state champion? Nope. People need to get out of the stone ages and get with the times. We need to increase our numbers and our fan base in order to keep our sport strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Iowa isn't top 5, they have had a good run of kids the past few years. 1. PA 2. Ohio 3. Illinois 4. New Jersey 5. California No way Iowa is better than those five states year in year out. They might top a few of those teams every few years, but not consistently enough to be considered a top 5 state. Survey people from across the nation and very few will put Iowa in the top 5. My data just goes back the past 5 years, not 10 or 15 or 20. Would the past 5 years constitute every few years? It looks like there is a strong correlation between a state's population and the strength of its wrestling. This and whether or not the state has a tradition of wrestling seem to explain more than whether or not the state has class wrestling or not (since there are some states that have classes that do better than you would expect based on their population and some that don't). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Maybe the reason the attendance is up for the finals is because its almost the equivalent of combining Semi State and State. Would we still keep the Semi States? The quality of matches will be down at state and I wouldn't be as interested in first round matches. So an increased interest in the state finals is not good for the sport? Increased interest from schools of ALL sizes is not good for the sport? I guess we will let the big schools dominate and just watch as the sport dies at the small school level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 You said it was the best way to judge a state's strength first. Then you said it is just a guideline. Sometimes a guideline is the best or only way to judge a state's strength. What do you want to do, bring every kid from every state together to determine the real state rankings? OK. I agree with you it might be the best or only way. What I am saying is that Oregon, with an outrageous 5 classes, half the population, probably less wrestling tradition, probably fewer off season opportunities to improve, is kicking our butt at Fargo. We should have twice the points at Fargo with twice the population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tskin Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 While we are talking about Classes I really think we should have all national tourneys classed. I mean how can a smaller population state be expected to compete against California or Texas. They have a larger pool of athletes to pull from. So we should have a 1A, 2A, 3A national champions in our summer season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoilerUp Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Maybe the reason the attendance is up for the finals is because its almost the equivalent of combining Semi State and State. Would we still keep the Semi States? The quality of matches will be down at state and I wouldn't be as interested in first round matches. So an increased interest in the state finals is not good for the sport? Increased interest from schools of ALL sizes is not good for the sport? I guess we will let the big schools dominate and just watch as the sport dies at the small school level. I'm just saying I'm not sure its an increased interest in the sport. It sounds like its just a transfer of interested from Semi State to State. That data doesn't prove to me there are new fans when it may just be that your combining them into one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cewrestlingfan Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 While we are talking about Classes I really think we should have all national tourneys classed. I mean how can a smaller population state be expected to compete against California or Texas. They have a larger pool of athletes to pull from. So we should have a 1A, 2A, 3A national champions in our summer season. Good idea tskin. Then we have more national champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickS Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I think that Fargo is the best way to compare states that we will ever have. No we don't send all of our best, but I would think we send close to an equal percentage of our best that other states do. It will not correlate perfectly but it is a good measuring stick. Thank you, this is all I wanted. I'm not suggesting that where each state ranks at Fargo is the actual strength. But it's a good measuring stick, guideline, estimate, whatever you want to call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Iowa isn't top 5, they have had a good run of kids the past few years. 1. PA 2. Ohio 3. Illinois 4. New Jersey 5. California No way Iowa is better than those five states year in year out. They might top a few of those teams every few years, but not consistently enough to be considered a top 5 state. Survey people from across the nation and very few will put Iowa in the top 5. My data just goes back the past 5 years, not 10 or 15 or 20. Would the past 5 years constitute every few years? It looks like there is a strong correlation between a state's population and the strength of its wrestling. This and whether or not the state has a tradition of wrestling seem to explain more than whether or not the state has class wrestling or not (since there are some states that have classes that do better than you would expect based on their population and some that don't). States 1 million people bigger than us and how we stack up. California- Worse Texas- Better than New York- Worse Florida- Even Illinois- Worse Pennsylvania- Worse Ohio- Worse Michigan- Worse Georgia- Better than North Carolina- Better than New Jersey- Worse Virginia- Even with States we are within 1 million people of and how we stack up Washington- Even Arizona- Better Massachusetts- Better Tennessee- Better Missouri- Worse Maryland- Better Wisconsin- Worse Minnesota- Worse Other states that are better than us that have less population Oregon Oklahoma Iowa Kansas Other states we are even with that are lesser population Colorado and Nebraska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 While we are talking about Classes I really think we should have all national tourneys classed. I mean how can a smaller population state be expected to compete against California or Texas. They have a larger pool of athletes to pull from. So we should have a 1A, 2A, 3A national champions in our summer season. How about we just have one weight class, how is it that a 103lber can call himself a state champion when a 152lb regional qualifier could pin his butt in 30 seconds? He's not the true state wrestling champion! Lets have a TRUE state champion next week, I hate this classed state championships we have now. Let them all duke it out for a true state champion because that is what high school athletics is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 States 1 million people bigger than us and how we stack up. California- Worse Texas- Better than New York- Worse Florida- Even Illinois- Worse Pennsylvania- Worse Ohio- Worse Michigan- Worse Georgia- Better than North Carolina- Better than New Jersey- Worse Virginia- Even with States we are within 1 million people of and how we stack up Washington- Even Arizona- Better Massachusetts- Better Tennessee- Better Missouri- Worse Maryland- Better Wisconsin- Worse Minnesota- Worse Other states that are better than us that have less population Oregon Oklahoma Iowa Kansas Other states we are even with that are lesser population Colorado and Nebraska I missed on how you guys were determining how one state was better than another. How did you and the other poster determine how to rank the states? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 While we are talking about Classes I really think we should have all national tourneys classed. I mean how can a smaller population state be expected to compete against California or Texas. They have a larger pool of athletes to pull from. So we should have a 1A, 2A, 3A national champions in our summer season. How about we just have one weight class, how is it that a 103lber can call himself a state champion when a 152lb regional qualifier could pin his butt in 30 seconds? He's not the true state wrestling champion! Lets have a TRUE state champion next week, I hate this classed state championships we have now. Let them all duke it out for a true state champion because that is what high school athletics is for. While were at it...why aren't those whiners at Manchester, Trine, Wabash and Rose Hulman not competing with Iowa, Iowa State and the Ohio State University. They must not work hard there and just want medals to make them feel good about themselves. Those egomanic coaches at D3 probably just bitched and moaned until they got a class division where their sorry lazy butts could compete and pad their resumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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