What if class wrestling....

[Y2CJ41]

So the smaller schools and their wrestlers aren't at a disadvantage then.... or are they?

[pin2win1]

A very wise man once (probably the wisest man I have ever known) once told me as I was doing a presentation that to base an argument off final statistics only is a bad argument, but that one had to get behind the statistics in question and find all the reasons for the statistics.

 

So one would need to take a good long look, the first question I would have to ask is what do you determine as being a big school? Second, what percentage of wrestlers entered into the state series come from Big Schools as opposed to Small schools, because some small schools forfeit weight classes. My third question would be what percentage of small school wrestlers put in mat time outside of the season, and for those who do not put in time on the mat outside of the season, why do they not put in offseason mat time?

 

I mean in all honesty there could be numerous reasons why 75 percent come from big schools, and the answer may be a combination of those reasons. So I can't give a definitive answer.... I can however give a hypothesis.

 

Hypothesis: Wrestlers at small schools may not put their all into wrestling because they do not have to work hard to be a varsity wrestler, they may just show up and get handed a varsity spot because they are often the only one in their weight class, plus wrestlers are small schools wish to be multiple sport athletes and choose to put their time in at another sport instead.

[pin2win1]

NACO, don't forget that Penn is also a school in which much of their district is inhabited by well to do people financially. As a result these parents can send their kids to good camps and such.... that helps them out as well not just numbers

 

Also lets not also forget that it took mishawaka many years to build up to what it is today, it took around 30 years for Coach Smth, Beehler, and Snyder (as well as countless others) to get it to a point where it gets strong community involvement like it does today. If I were to pinpoint one thing as to Mishawaka's sucess, I would say the Mishawaka Wrestling Club was what really got Mishawaka to being a true state contender year in year out.

[naco228]

So the smaller schools and their wrestlers aren't at a disadvantage then.... or are they?

as a team they are at a disadvantage, cuz they may give up forfeits

but you could have a stud or two

I mean, i dont remember his name, but a few years ago a kid from Turkey Run won state

and Turkey Run is the smallest school with a wrestling program

 

Kyle Long from SB Washington placed 5th last year, and Washington doesnt have a great program

hes one of the guys that worked hard during the offseason and became a better wrestler

 

Im from SB Adams, and during the summer i went to wrestle at Mishawaka every single Tuesday and went to Riley on thursdays to become better

 

Basically smalls schools have a disadvantage as a team. But an exception would be Mater Dei. I think they have like 700 kids total? And they made a dynasty with their wrestling program.

 

 

[tspray1]

I guess my question to Pin is have you ever been affiliated with a small school? and if so what was the school?

[naco228]

NACO, don't forget that Penn is also a school in which much of their district is inhabited by well to do people financially. As a result these parents can send their kids to good camps and such.... that helps them out as well not just numbers

very true

and yes that helps greatly

 

But i think the reason why Mishawaka is so successful is becuz they have a program for the little kids, so they start wrestling together very early

And by the time they hit middle school and high school, they have all that experience, so they are ready for high school

[pin2win1]

tspray, can't say I have been associated with a small school, but I have been associated with a school that consistently triee to compete with a school twice its size and lost in football year in and year out. Now I would say that we lost because of numbers, but if that were the case, why did we lose to 4A and 3A schools in football as well?

[Y2CJ41]

So one would need to take a good long look, the first question I would have to ask is what do you determine as being a big school?

Big school is a school in the top 50% of enrollment.

Second, what percentage of wrestlers entered into the state series come from Big Schools as opposed to Small schools, because some small schools forfeit weight classes.

The same number of kids are entered for each team, 14.  So the number is equal, whether they field the spot or not

My third question would be what percentage of small school wrestlers put in mat time outside of the season, and for those who do not put in time on the mat outside of the season, why do they not put in offseason mat time?

There are many kids at small schools that put this time in while also running track or playing baseball.  I have had kids that come to club practice straight after practice or a game or meet.  What percentage of these kids are in another sport so that they can field a track team, or golf team or baseball team?

 

Hypothesis: Wrestlers at small schools may not put their all into wrestling because they do not have to work hard to be a varsity wrestler, they may just show up and get handed a varsity spot because they are often the only one in their weight class, plus wrestlers are small schools wish to be multiple sport athletes and choose to put their time in at another sport instead.

So you are saying small school wrestlers don't work hard.  Please feel free to go to a practice of a small school team near you and tell the coach and his kids they aren't working hard enough. Small school athletes are in multiple sports for because that is what is needed to survive at the small school level.  If half of my wrestlers wouldn't play football, they would lose about half of their starters on offense and defense.  Should small schools sacrifice the health of the entire athletic program by having coaches hog athletes?  There is no way I will EVER tell a kid not to play a fall or spring sport.  I will let them make the decision themselves and always encourage the kid to play the sport over not playing the sport.  The football team needs my wrestlers as much as I need the football players on the wrestling team.  

[pin2win1]

Naco, I agree that Mishawaka Wrestling Club helps out alot, but it took a long time for it to really develop and be implimented. I can honestly say since that time it was implimented Mishawaka has improved greatly. Before then if you wanted to wrestle as a child you had to do one one two things, have your gym teacher invte you to Jr high wrestling practice while you were in elementary, or go to the Strycker wrestling club

[Y2CJ41]

as a team they are at a disadvantage, cuz they may give up forfeits

but you could have a stud or two

So who is that stud going to wrestle in practice, those forfeits?

 

Ryan Pribble from Turkey Run is the exception, not the rule.  Andrew Howe is from a small school too, but that doesn't mean every small school has an Andrew Howe on their team.

[naco228]

as a team they are at a disadvantage, cuz they may give up forfeits

but you could have a stud or two

So who is that stud going to wrestle in practice, those forfeits?

 

Ryan Pribble from Turkey Run is the exception, not the rule.  Andrew Howe is from a small school too, but that doesn't mean every small school has an Andrew Howe on their team.

i understand. I didnt mean it that way

Heres one: This guy made it to semi state for the first time; Juan Juarez from SB St. Joe. I asked him what he did, and he said he just busted his butt during that summer, and ran everyday. He wanted to let it out his senior year. But when it came to practice, i know who he wrestled. He wrestled the only guy near his weight, who was terrible. He told me he would whoop him in practice every day. Now i dont know if that really helped him, but he did put time during the summer and loss to Almaraz at semi state by 1. Thats how a stud at a small school becomes successful.

[pin2win1]

The same number of kids are entered for each team, 14.  So the number is equal, whether they field the spot or not

Gonna disagree with ya on that, i think the only fair way to guage percentage is to guage if off of actual wrestlers wrestling. But this is going to be like the argument that used to be used for Punters in football, what stat is better to lead the league in, net or gross yards? So i think we have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

 

 

There are many kids at small schools that put this time in while also running track or playing baseball.  I have had kids that come to club practice straight after practice or a game or meet.  What percentage of these kids are in another sport so that they can field a track team, or golf team or baseball team?

 

Well glad to hear this, but is it true for every small school? Garrett is just one school not all of them.

 

So you are saying small school wrestlers don't work hard.  Please feel free to go to a practice of a small school team near you and tell the coach and his kids they aren't working hard enough. Small school athletes are in multiple sports for because that is what is needed to survive at the small school level.  If half of my wrestlers wouldn't play football, they would lose about half of their starters on offense and defense.  Should small schools sacrifice the health of the entire athletic program by having coaches hog athletes?  There is no way I will EVER tell a kid not to play a fall or spring sport.  I will let them make the decision themselves and always encourage the kid to play the sport over not playing the sport.  The football team needs my wrestlers as much as I need the football players on the wrestling team.

 

I made a typo, I meant to say that they may not work "as hard" not hard. I don't mean that the wrestlers are conciously not working hard, but subconciously I think the mindset during practice might be a little different if you are given a spot as to having to earn your spot. I am sorry that it sounded like I was saying wrestlers at a small school do not work as hard, because I think all wrestlers work hard when compared to every other sport out there. Also I was not saying anything bad about wrestlers who play other sports or who sacrifice time on the mat to play another sport, I was just pointing out that it might be an issue.

[Y2CJ41]

So the small school kids that don't make it to semi-state or state don't work hard?

 

 

 

[pin2win1]

Heres one: This guy made it to semi state for the first time; Juan Juarez from SB St. Joe. I asked him what he did, and he said he just busted his butt during that summer, and ran everyday. He wanted to let it out his senior year. But when it came to practice, i know who he wrestled. He wrestled the only guy near his weight, who was terrible. He told me he would whoop him in practice every day. Now i dont know if that really helped him, but he did put time during the summer and loss to Almaraz at semi state by 1. Thats how a stud at a small school becomes successful.

 

This is exactly why class individual wrestling is not needed. All wrestlers have the chance to wrestle top competition now days, they just have to know where to go.

[pin2win1]

So the small school kids that don't make it to semi-state or state don't work hard?

 

its not that they did not work hard, just that they did not work hard enough to make it to semi-state or state.

[XCard]

I agree with pin2win about the comparison of if size doesn't matter, why not get rid of weight classes.  It sounds like a good argument, but sometimes common sense has to take over.  I relate this to an argument some guys try to make on my department.  We are allowed to carry tasers on my department, but in order for you to carry one, you must as we like to say "ride the lightning" to have one issued.  Some guys refuse to carry one because they do not want to be tazed and use the argument that "Well, I don't have to be shot to carry my gun."  It sounds like a good rebuttal by the class supporters, but it makes as much sense to me as the "small schools just have to work harder" argument the some anti-class supporters make.

[Y2CJ41]

There are many kids at small schools that put this time in while also running track or playing baseball.  I have had kids that come to club practice straight after practice or a game or meet.  What percentage of these kids are in another sport so that they can field a track team, or golf team or baseball team?

 

Well glad to hear this, but is it true for every small school? Garrett is just one school not all of them.

Its 100% true that the kids from small schools are in multiple sports and have to try to please two or three coaches at once.  I would love to have my wrestlers all year round, but I simply can't if I want to go to a football game in the fall to see a team that is halfway decent.  

 

So you are saying small school wrestlers don't work hard.  Please feel free to go to a practice of a small school team near you and tell the coach and his kids they aren't working hard enough. Small school athletes are in multiple sports for because that is what is needed to survive at the small school level.  If half of my wrestlers wouldn't play football, they would lose about half of their starters on offense and defense.  Should small schools sacrifice the health of the entire athletic program by having coaches hog athletes?  There is no way I will EVER tell a kid not to play a fall or spring sport.  I will let them make the decision themselves and always encourage the kid to play the sport over not playing the sport.  The football team needs my wrestlers as much as I need the football players on the wrestling team.

 

I made a typo, I meant to say that they may not work "as hard" not hard. I don't mean that the wrestlers are conciously not working hard, but subconciously I think the mindset during practice might be a little different if you are given a spot as to having to earn your spot. I am sorry that it sounded like I was saying wrestlers at a small school do not work as hard, because I think all wrestlers work hard when compared to every other sport out there. Also I was not saying anything bad about wrestlers who play other sports or who sacrifice time on the mat to play another sport, I was just pointing out that it might be an issue.

Again, tell my kids they aren't working "as hard" as their competition.  My kids need to be in those other sports or we won't be fielding a baseball team.  If the football players aren't coming out for wrestling, we are not fielding a wrestling team.  If the track coach hogs all the athletes all year long, they won't field a cross country team.  Do you see where this is headed?  There aren't enough athletes at Garrett High School for coaches to hog athletes all year long!  Mishwaka can do this because they can find more athletes in the hallways.  

[naco228]

So the small school kids that don't make it to semi-state or state don't work hard?

 

 

 

oh come man! yer making sound like the bad guy!

of course i dont mean that. they could have a tough weight class of course.

 

maybe you could have a school that has 5 or 6 forfeits, and the rest of their guys actually very good wrestlers

but they wont win many of the meets cuz of 30 points they are giving up

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

Heres one: This guy made it to semi state for the first time; Juan Juarez from SB St. Joe. I asked him what he did, and he said he just busted his butt during that summer, and ran everyday. He wanted to let it out his senior year. But when it came to practice, i know who he wrestled. He wrestled the only guy near his weight, who was terrible. He told me he would whoop him in practice every day. Now i dont know if that really helped him, but he did put time during the summer and loss to Almaraz at semi state by 1. Thats how a stud at a small school becomes successful.

 

This is exactly why class individual wrestling is not needed. All wrestlers have the chance to wrestle top competition now days, they just have to know where to go.

 

But he just stated that the small school kids don't have the practice partners, facilities, and money for more paid coaches didn't he?  Aren't those disadvantages?

[mtv2112]

In this state if they have class wrestling there should be only 3 classes at the most then they should have a round robin for a true weight class champion

 

I'm going to make it clear first off, I'm against a class system (at least for Indiana).  But if we did something like you've suggested, what would be the point of breaking up into classes if there's going to be a true champion anyway?

 

Someone might have already mentioned this, but "if" there were individual champions by class, there would be no need for the round robin.  The boys can settle things at the ISWA tournament, which seems to dispense with the silly nonsense of requiring competitors to "attend school" and have healthy weight control programs, etc.

[Y2CJ41]

I agree with pin2win about the comparison of if size doesn't matter, why not get rid of weight classes.  It sounds like a good argument, but sometimes common sense has to take over.  I relate this to an argument some guys try to make on my department.  We are allowed to carry tasers on my department, but in order for you to carry one, you must as we like to say "ride the lightning" to have one issued.  Some guys refuse to carry one because they do not want to be tazed and use the argument that "Well, I don't have to be shot to carry my gun."   It sounds like a good rebuttal by the class supporters, but it makes as much sense to me as the "small schools just have to work harder" argument the some anti-class supporters make.

What about the rebuttal that we always get when they say, "why don't you just give everyone a ribbon?"

[Y2CJ41]

So the small school kids that don't make it to semi-state or state don't work hard?

oh come man! yer making sound like the bad guy!

of course i dont mean that. they could have a tough weight class of course.

 

maybe you could have a school that has 5 or 6 forfeits, and the rest of their guys actually very good wrestlers

but they wont win many of the meets cuz of 30 points they are giving up

 

Why would I want to coach a team with 5 or 6 forfeits?  I want to coach a TEAM not a couple individuals. 

[pin2win1]

Y2, I don't think you believe everyone should get a ribbon, I think you just believe that everyone who works hard deserves to make it to state ;-)

[naco228]

So the small school kids that don't make it to semi-state or state don't work hard?

oh come man! yer making sound like the bad guy!

of course i dont mean that. they could have a tough weight class of course.

 

maybe you could have a school that has 5 or 6 forfeits, and the rest of their guys actually very good wrestlers

but they wont win many of the meets cuz of 30 points they are giving up

 

Why would I want to coach a team with 5 or 6 forfeits?  I want to coach a TEAM not a couple individuals. 

well maybe you have no choice

what if Garrett next year only have like 10 wrestlers come out and you could only fill 8 weight classes?

you gonna quit coaching em? you gonna quit helping out the few wrestlers that have a chance to make it far?

sometimes you cant help how large your team is

and i understand, i wouldnt wanna coach half a team. but if thats what i get, im gonna help the few wrestlers i have and take them as far as they can go

[Y2CJ41]

Every time someone that is against class wrestling says, "just give everyone a ribbon then" it doesn't help the argument and is as good as me saying "lets just have one weight class."  Right now Indiana allows the least number of kids to advance to the state finals at 5.18% of the kids in the state earn a free ticket.  States like Iowa, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin all have between 9-13% going to state.  Going to a two class system, which I would prefer, will not kill wrestling like everyone wants to think.  Those states are all surviving pretty well with classes wrestling and allowing double our state qualifiers to participate.  

 

See stats

http://garrettwrestling.com/statebreakdown.html

 

I personally am for a two class system and maybe three at most.  I am not for a system like Arizona where they have over 50% of their wrestlers go to state.