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wrestleliferfan

How about those wrestlebacks?

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3 hours ago, raider140 said:

I may be wrong here but with wrestle backs don’t you run into the possibility of wrestling the same kid twice in the same day??  If those two kids split matches, did you really find out who the better wrestler is that should advance??  This comes up often at sectionals.  If wrestle backs are there to get the best 4 through, you are still going to have instances where we still don’t know.  

 

What about weight classes like 126 this year where it is loaded??   You have about 6 guys that have traded losses all year long and two are going to be left out.  I bet you don’t get the same four two weeks in a row even with wrestlebacks.  To me that is the beauty of our sport.  It is whoever is best that day.  No system is going to be perfect.  

Perfect!!  People just whining and crying cause "Jonny" was ranked, got beat and is now sitting in the stands. Many of the weight classes have studs that on any given day, will trade Win/losses. 

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I love the drama of the ticket round, it is very intense and a great thing to watch. The season is on the line and you have 6 minutes to move on and punch a ticket or you go home. It is a wonderful thing for sure.

 At the same time everybody knows that getting a great draw is part of why some kids advance. Example John Doe, who may very well be easily one of the best 8 kids in the state, drew the state champ in the ticket round so his season is over. It does not discredit any other kids win, just helps to ensure the best 16 get to state. Parris is one of those all-time great Indiana wrestlers, but somebody had to draw him in the ticket round. Same with Lee and the list goes on.

We have great wrestling in this state, but it can always be improved upon. I am not saying I am in favor of either, just can see both sides of the argument.

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The only proposal that I think the IHSAA would even consider would be to send 5 from each semistate to state.

Here's how it would work.  First round losers are out.  Quarter final losers have to wait.  If the wrestler that beat them wins in the semis and makes the finals, then those 2 ticket round losers will wrestle for 5th during the finals with the winner qualifying for state and the loser (6th) as the alternate.  That adds zero time to semistate.

4th & 5th placers will be paired up for first round of state.  It will add about 1-1.5 hours at the beginning of state, but it also adds more revenue in the IHSAA's pocket from ticket sales.

This is far from perfect, but it does give the "death draw" a chance, and the IHSAA is far more likely to consider it than hearing about wrestlebacks year after year.  They always ask "How many times can a guy lose?"  The answer to that has to be "twice".  Every wrestling tournament in the country is double-elimination.  The IHSAA should set up a system where nobody is eliminated after their first post-season loss unless that loss is to somebody who has lost twice (like first round of regionals and semistate).  The only exception would be in Sectionals with more than 8 wrestlers, but proper seeding and bye placement can limit that.

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52 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

The only proposal that I think the IHSAA would even consider would be to send 5 from each semistate to state.

Here's how it would work.  First round losers are out.  Quarter final losers have to wait.  If the wrestler that beat them wins in the semis and makes the finals, then those 2 ticket round losers will wrestle for 5th during the finals with the winner qualifying for state and the loser (6th) as the alternate.  That adds zero time to semistate.

4th & 5th placers will be paired up for first round of state.  It will add about 1-1.5 hours at the beginning of state, but it also adds more revenue in the IHSAA's pocket from ticket sales.

This is far from perfect, but it does give the "death draw" a chance, and the IHSAA is far more likely to consider it than hearing about wrestlebacks year after year.  They always ask "How many times can a guy lose?"  The answer to that has to be "twice".  Every wrestling tournament in the country is double-elimination.  The IHSAA should set up a system where nobody is eliminated after their first post-season loss unless that loss is to somebody who has lost twice (like first round of regionals and semistate).  The only exception would be in Sectionals with more than 8 wrestlers, but proper seeding and bye placement can limit that.

I would even be okay with this.  Then 6th placer is your alternate.  Would keep more people in the stands for the semi finals also.

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18 minutes ago, Pantherman95 said:

Without wrestlebacks, state will never have the best 16.  It happens every year in every weight 

The best 16 will NEVER get there even with wrestle-backs. There are some areas loaded at certain weights and very talented kids will always be left at home. Wrestle-backs just make it so we get closer to "perfect."

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One could have wrestlebacks after the quarterfinals, only. If you're a regional #4 drawing the top #1 in the state in round one of semistate, to have been the #4 coming out of regionals, you will have had to have lost twice at Regionals. There are at least 3 ahead of you, and then someone outside your regional is the "ringer" death draw. So that wrestler does not have a case, really, to claim to be one of the best 4 at semi-state. But, those who lose in round 2--the current "ticket" round, they easily could be a top 5 wrestler in the state, lose to a top 3 wrestler in regionals, and then draw the number 1 in the state in the ticket round. I have literally watched the number 3 in a given class go down to the number 1 in regionals, and draw the number 2 in the ticket round and be out of state. THIS is the problem that the wrestlebacks are intended to solve, NOT taking away the upsets, which will always happen, it seems completely disingenuous to say "well then they weren't the best on this particular day", while the left out top 5 wrestler watches someone they've beaten 3 times this year in the grand march reveling in the whole pageantry that is "State". The IHSAA seems not to understand what "Going to State" is to a wrestler. It is a defining moment...a lifetime of work...and this is what COULD be corrected if we had an open mind. So I say, wrestlebacks after round 2, but NOT after round 1.
As for time, I agree that is a concern. I'm not sure how all the semi-states look, but at New Castle we spend every year at LEAST one hour in "breaks". This year we had 3, totaling about 90 minutes or so. The New Castle "breaks" are becoming legendary. That is easily enough time to put in a single wrestle back round.

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2 hours ago, TCCender said:

One could have wrestlebacks after the quarterfinals, only. If you're a regional #4 drawing the top #1 in the state in round one of semistate, to have been the #4 coming out of regionals, you will have had to have lost twice at Regionals. There are at least 3 ahead of you, and then someone outside your regional is the "ringer" death draw. So that wrestler does not have a case, really, to claim to be one of the best 4 at semi-state. But, those who lose in round 2--the current "ticket" round, they easily could be a top 5 wrestler in the state, lose to a top 3 wrestler in regionals, and then draw the number 1 in the state in the ticket round. I have literally watched the number 3 in a given class go down to the number 1 in regionals, and draw the number 2 in the ticket round and be out of state. THIS is the problem that the wrestlebacks are intended to solve, NOT taking away the upsets, which will always happen, it seems completely disingenuous to say "well then they weren't the best on this particular day", while the left out top 5 wrestler watches someone they've beaten 3 times this year in the grand march reveling in the whole pageantry that is "State". The IHSAA seems not to understand what "Going to State" is to a wrestler. It is a defining moment...a lifetime of work...and this is what COULD be corrected if we had an open mind. So I say, wrestlebacks after round 2, but NOT after round 1.
As for time, I agree that is a concern. I'm not sure how all the semi-states look, but at New Castle we spend every year at LEAST one hour in "breaks". This year we had 3, totaling about 90 minutes or so. The New Castle "breaks" are becoming legendary. That is easily enough time to put in a single wrestle back round.

This person speaks my language.  Not asking to change the whole system.

3 concerning things that need to changed in my opinion that would make the system much better and you should hear less belly aching.

1. At sectionals all rat tails wrestle other rat tails so wrestlers don't get knocked out the first round that don't deserve to.  I get that they may not qualify anyways but wrestling to 5th sometimes makes the difference for the team title at sectionals.

2. At regionals find a better way to find the alternate other than the wrestler that got beat by the winner.  Which usually means it was a 4th placer from sectionals.  Sometimes the alternate.

3. Try to find the best 4 at each semi state and the alternate.  I am totally fine with if you lose the first round you are out then figuring something out from the ticket round.  There have been a few options thrown out that would suffice.  Anything is better than what we do now.

 

 

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1 hour ago, aoberlin said:

This person speaks my language.  Not asking to change the whole system.

3 concerning things that need to changed in my opinion that would make the system much better and you should hear less belly aching.

1. At sectionals all rat tails wrestle other rat tails so wrestlers don't get knocked out the first round that don't deserve to.  I get that they may not qualify anyways but wrestling to 5th sometimes makes the difference for the team title at sectionals.

2. At regionals find a better way to find the alternate other than the wrestler that got beat by the winner.  Which usually means it was a 4th placer from sectionals.  Sometimes the alternate.

3. Try to find the best 4 at each semi state and the alternate.  I am totally fine with if you lose the first round you are out then figuring something out from the ticket round.  There have been a few options thrown out that would suffice.  Anything is better than what we do now.

 

 

Another problem I see that can happen in this plan..... If a regional champ loses to a regional #4 in the first round of SS. That may be the only loss he has had in the tournamet. How would that be fair to only have 1 loss in the tournament and be knocked out?  Obviously, there is no perfect system but in my opinion if we were to have wrestlebacks, then everyone should be entitled a 2nd loss before they are eliminated from the tournament.

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A Sectional or Regional champ who loses first round was beaten by someone who has lost twice and was 4th best at their Sectional/Regional.  That automatically puts him behind 4 others, so a 2nd loss isn't necessary.  The IHSAA has no sympathy for upsets.

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1 minute ago, GrecoCoach said:

A Sectional or Regional champ who loses first round was beaten by someone who has lost twice and was 4th best at their Sectional/Regional.  That automatically puts him behind 4 others, so a 2nd loss isn't necessary.  The IHSAA has no sympathy for upsets.

In that case the current system works fine. The IHSAA has no sympathy for upsets.

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2 minutes ago, WOC said:

In that case the current system works fine. The IHSAA has no sympathy for upsets.

The 2nd round of semistate is still flawed.  That is where (without an upset) a top 4 wrestler can be eliminated.

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13 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

The 2nd round of semistate is still flawed.  That is where (without an upset) a top 4 wrestler can be eliminated.

The definition of upset is very subjective.  One person's upset my not be an upset by another's opinion.  Every scenario is flawed without full wrestlebacks...... and even with full wrestlebacks there will be upsets.

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34 minutes ago, WOC said:

The definition of upset is very subjective.  One person's upset my not be an upset by another's opinion.  Every scenario is flawed without full wrestlebacks...... and even with full wrestlebacks there will be upsets.

I agree.  I wonder how many of the WRESTLERS think the system is flawed? 

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How many times does it have to be said? Wrestlebacks are not needed to protect against upsets - they are needed to protect against the random draw.

Example: 3 top wrestlers, all of whom are capable of winning the title in a weight class, are in the same semi-state. 2 of the 3 come from the same regional, thus one of these wrestlers has to enter the SS as a #2. Therefore it is possible given the random draw process that this wrestler could end up in the same quarter bracket as the 3rd wrestler (who is capable of winning the title) that won his regional. In this scenario, one of these wrestlers is not making it through the SS.

Under the current system a wrestler capable of winning a title doesn't even make it to state (BTW this has happened & will happen again). But if there were wrestlebacks, he would still have the chance of getting through. Then come the next weekend, he might avenge the loss & win a state title.

One last time, avoiding upsets is not why so many of us want to see wrestlebacks.

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I’d say there are a few kids from the Evansville semi state who could place top 8 but got hurt by the draw and there season has ended. 

 

 

Edited by navy80

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4 minutes ago, navy80 said:

I’d say there are a few kids from the Evansville semi state who could place top 8 but got hurt by the draw and there season has ended. 

 

 

I don't like specifics at this point as I don't want to diminish any wrestler's accomplishment, but of those you are thinking of - would any of them be a factor in the chase for the team title?

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Evansville 170 Carson Brewer beat the brakes off every kid he wrestled.  My son included in ticket round.  Two of the state qualifiers my son beat multiple times.  Wrestlebacks fix that.  No one in the bracket could beat Brewer so wrestlebacks were needed to get true top four.  

Edited by Jaguar35

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On 2/11/2018 at 4:55 AM, 1prouddad said:

And I seen a guy wrestle with the 2nd worst record in his bracket come in and get the job done. With his season and HS career on the line, Davidson from Columbus East takes out a 1 seed in Gamblin from North Posey. It was no fluke as he then takes out Willhem(Green) to punch his ticket. He wasn't done though as he battled against a very tough Fuller and lost a close one. Battles in the 3/4 place match against state ranked Kleinhenz who just beat 8th ranked Jonah Hays and wins another close one. 

We could go on all day about wrestlebacks and would've could've scenarios, but the bottom line is just as WOC put it. Lace'em up and beat the man in front of you, no excuses. 

That 170 bracket had Carson Brewer.  Basically had his way with every match.  Wrestlebacks and this bracket turns out different guaranteed 

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