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Kleveland11

ESPN Article on Iowa wrestler defaulting to girl at state!

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I will play Nostradamus here and tell you the future....

 

Girls will continue to wrestle guys until there are sufficient numbers to form girl teams at every school.  You say it will never happen?  I HOPE you are wrong!  It is the single sure way that our beloved sport can be saved.

 

My experience with girls wrestling has been 5 years in the making and I will be the first to admit that it has not always been comfortable, but I see it for what it is.  My sons HS team has 5 girls that wrestled all season.  They work with the guys every day in practice and put in the same work as the guys.  These girls are tough and I respect every one of them.  Only 1 has wrestled a guy this year...and she pinned them all.  Our "regular" 125lber had ringworm and was forced to be out for a few weeks, she wrestled 3 duals and pinned all 3 of her opponents.

 

Now she and the rest of the girls have been fortunate enough to wrestle every weekend at GIRLS only tnmts.  This is the first year that there have been enough girl only tnmts. locally that this could happen.  Prior to that, girls numbers continued to grow every year and there were scattered girl-only tnmts. but many girls still had to wrestle boys if they wanted to wrestle.  The young lady I mentioned (that wrestled a few guys this year) is a Senior and currently 34-0.  She will wrestle next weekend for a chance to be the 2010 CIF 122lb. Girls wrestling  State Champion and I couldn't be prouder to say that I know her.

 

About a month ago we had "signing day" at the HS.  9 D1 scholarships were handed out, (1) Mens golf, (1) Softball, (6) football and (1) wrestling....GIRLS WRESTLING!!  (Catching my drift yet?)  She began her HS career wrestling boys only and finished it with girls that will never have to wrestle boys (unless they choose to).  She was the Rosa Parks of girls wrestling who refused to be told "you CAN'T do that!".

 

So what does this have to do with "our sport"?  In the last  few years I have watched locally as UC Davis, Fresno State and several local JC's drop their wrestling programs...while keeping (and or starting!) their Men's and WOMENS track, soccer, swimming, tennis, cross country, basketball, and baseball/softball teams.  So you are not alone thinking that boys shouldn't wrestle girls, but until you get behind it and help it grow to a point that they have the option to wrestle only other girls, what choice do they have?  And WHEN girl's wrestling teams are present at colleges, wrestling can stand behind the shield of equity that protects other sports that have gender equitable counterparts.

 

P.S. If you are "uncomfortable" about girls being groped or roughed up on the mat, just know that they are wrestlers on the mat.  As soon as they step off of the mat, they are girls (young ladies) that deserve your respect (the same as any other opponent).  I think it is funny that the physical contact required is interpreted as a sexual act by some.  As soon as an openly gay wrestler comes out, will we interpret the entire sport as "sexual" simply because it "looks" like they are all groping each other?  Describing or interpreting any part of wrestling as anything other than a sport of physical control is just childish.

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atwood1, your vision maybe right, it is a vision of good intent. But herein lies the problem, your P.S. statement seemed to take a very adult like, common sense approach to address the physical nature of a wrestling match. And if I was addressing the issue with like adults as you and I are, I think the same words would of spewed out of my mouth. You fail to comprehend  the realities of 14- 18 yearold children. Sexuality is one of the driving forces of people this age, and to just turn a blind eye or sweep it under the rug as ( in the eye of the beholders problem) tells me you have your head in the sand. You not going to tell me 16 year olds are mature enough to decipher these feelings as adults. I can only hope IHSAA or outside athorities bring a halt to this nonsense.

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I believe the question is do we allow for the current status quo or do 'WE' do something about this?   What I mean by 'WE', I mean each and every one of us involved in wrestling.  Supporting women's wrestling is the key.  Even encouraging more girls to wrestle will change the landscape.  If this issue is just ignored as it is now, until a really good lightweight girl wrestler makes strides into State tournaments, this will remain just a talking point only for a couple weeks of the year.  Boys and girls wrestle each other all the time at all levels of wrestling.  

 

With support from all levels, women wrestling only women could be implemented and successful in just a three years.  I am very excited about the coming prospect of Kayla making it to state in one of her next three years, probably next year!!  But all of her work, skill, and talent does not make any strides for women's wrestling.  It shows that women can make it in the lightest weight classes.  This does nothing for the vast number of women that work just as hard, but are unable to break JV because they do not have a small build and are not in the lightest weight classes.  Our heavier women Olympic team members are not able to succeed at the HS Varsity level, simply because of the body build difference between boys and girls.

 

With more support from coaches, administrators, parents, etc., we could have groups of girls working out alongside the guys on the wrestling teams.  With these groups, we would have practice partners and the ability to have small add-on meets and mini-tourneys with just the women.  The IHSAA does not recognize women's wrestling and does not even track the number of women in our HS programs.  Adding to the total number of wrestlers across the state of IN will help our sport overall for boys and girls.  In my talks with parents, there are so many girls that would like to wrestle, but they simply do not want to wrestle boys.  The parents don't want them to wrestle boys.  Many parents with boys wrestling don't want their girls to wrestle because they know how physical the sport is.  

 

I have been in communication with everyone that I can find the last couple years to gain support for women's wrestling.  I sent out emails to every coach and AD in the state and letters to every women wrestler that has registered, and receive only minimal feedback.  The change will occur when the system changed as in states like Tennessee, Washington, and Hawaii.  All similar in population to IN, but they have taken the proactive step to organize and recognize women's wrestling without the numbers.  When this plan is implemented, the numbers grow every year and teams of women form within a couple years.  This can occur in IN with or without the support of the IHSAA, it is up to all of us.

 

This Sunday is the United States Girls Wrestling Assocation's (USGWA) state tournament in Indiana at Yorktown HS.  Trent McCormick is a strong supporter of women's wrestling and was happy for his club to support this tournament.  Trust me there are always other tournaments to go to, but this  and a couple others are the best opportunity for all of our GS-HS Girl Wrestlers to show their skill against women from several surrounding states!  Support our girls by attending the tournament and telling those girls involved in wrestling to attend girls only events.

 

Darren Strub,  ISWA Women's Director

 

 

Darren

I truly appreciate your input on this subject.   You seem to give  equal merit to both the boys apprehension

and the girls desire to wrestle.  This is something that I respect greatly.

In the future I will be encouraging my son to put away his ( I am not sure what the appropriate word is here)

I want to use the word respect but that would make it not respectful to wrestle so I will just leave that word out.

 

I will say this to him  just like I do every other match.   " Start fast,  keep the pressure on,  make her try and keep-up!

 

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atwood1, your vision maybe right, it is a vision of good intent. But herein lies the problem, your P.S. statement seemed to take a very adult like, common sense approach to address the physical nature of a wrestling match. And if I was addressing the issue with like adults as you and I are, I think the same words would of spewed out of my mouth. You fail to comprehend  the realities of 14- 18 yearold children. Sexuality is one of the driving forces of people this age, and to just turn a blind eye or sweep it under the rug as ( in the eye of the beholders problem) tells me you have your head in the sand. You not going to tell me 16 year olds are mature enough to decipher these feelings as adults. I can only hope IHSAA or outside athorities bring a halt to this nonsense.

 

Believe me, I have 13 and 17 yr. old boys in the house.  The power of sexual curiosity outweighs thoughts of homework, wrestling, self preservation, ...you name it.  What I was trying to emphasize was that the physical contact of wrestling is unavoidable and the only time a sexual context is put on it is when we allow it to be (hence the homosexual example).  I hear my share of ignorant kids talk about wrestling as if it was a date, these folks obviously don't get it.  Under the same context, if a boy walks on the mat thinking "oh boy..boobies!" chances are increasingly good that they will get beat.  They need to treat them as wrestlers on the mat.  I WOULD say that they CHOOSE to be there as wrestlers, but that isn't the whole truth either.  In states like IN, they have no choice if they want to wrestle!

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Believe me, I have 13 and 17 yr. old boys in the house.  The power of sexual curiosity outweighs thoughts of homework, wrestling, self preservation, ...you name it.  What I was trying to emphasize was that the physical contact of wrestling is unavoidable and the only time a sexual context is put on it is when we allow it to be (hence the homosexual example).  I hear my share of ignorant kids talk about wrestling as if it was a date, these folks obviously don't get it.  Under the same context, if a boy walks on the mat thinking "oh boy..boobies!" chances are increasingly good that they will get beat.  They need to treat them as wrestlers on the mat.  I WOULD say that they CHOOSE to be there as wrestlers, but that isn't the whole truth either.   In states like IN, they have no choice if they want to wrestle!

 

But the point that you seem to blithely sidestep is that they are still, in fact, girls -- even when they put on a headgear and step on a wrestling mat. They still have certain parts and lack others (to overly simplify things). You can't decide that they aren't girls because they decided to join a boy's sport, and if you decide that, you are simply denying reality. That physical fact is incontestable. Play all of the mental games you want, concentrate all you want on their "wrestlerness", repeat that the person across the mat is not a girl 1,000,000 times, and BING... she is still a girl, just a girl who happens to be wrestling. From the moment she is conceived until the moment she dies she will perform countless actions, from eating meals to studying multiplication tables to teaching her children how to read, and during every last one of them she will continue to be a girl -- and should always be treated as such. To treat her as something else would be to disrespect her femininity.

 

The fact that you would have us deny what she is in order for this to work should probably tell you it's not good.

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I am surprised so many of you on here agree with the kid.  I think you are just scared of girls, haha

The fact of the matter here is we have a boy who really did a right thing. And through afew people in the state of Iowa , keeping their heads buried in the sand, did a dis service to this boy. I think  wrestling in Indiana is stooping to the same low blind eye attitude. The Indiana wrestlers need to stand up to their parents and coaches to bring a halt to the nonsense, as this brave boy from Iowa did.

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Could someone please point me to the section of the Bible that says "Thou shalt not wrestle with a girl."  If the kid wants to screw his chance to make history over some masculine pride then I guess he never gained the mental toughness needed to make history in this sport.

 

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Could someone please point me to the section of the Bible that says "Thou shalt not wrestle with a girl."  If the kid wants to screw his chance to make history over some masculine pride then I guess he never gained the mental toughness needed to make history in this sport.

 

 

Not every religion follows the Bible.

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I think the boy said in their religion they do not believe in touching a female in a familiar way, thats why he chose not to wrestle her.  I don't have a dog in this fight  ;) but I don't think girls should wrestle boys, but since we don't have enough girls to form a all girls team (or whatever you want to call it )  the girls will be there and the boys will just have to think of her as any other wrestler. 

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Could someone please point me to the section of the Bible that says "Thou shalt not wrestle with a girl."  If the kid wants to screw his chance to make history over some masculine pride then I guess he never gained the mental toughness needed to make history in this sport.

 

It is between thou shall not drink and thou shall not dance. Look it up.

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Some things are more important than state titles or 6 points. 

 

One of the most impressive things about this kid is that he realizes that;  a rare trait for a teenage boy.

wow that is a really good point.  whether or not you agree with him, you have to respect him for standing up for his principles.  

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But the point that you seem to blithely sidestep is that they are still, in fact, girls -- even when they put on a headgear and step on a wrestling mat. They still have certain parts and lack others (to overly simplify things). You can't decide that they aren't girls because they decided to join a boy's sport, and if you decide that, you are simply denying reality. That physical fact is incontestable. Play all of the mental games you want, concentrate all you want on their "wrestlerness", repeat that the person across the mat is not a girl 1,000,000 times, and BING... she is still a girl, just a girl who happens to be wrestling. From the moment she is conceived until the moment she dies she will perform countless actions, from eating meals to studying multiplication tables to teaching her children how to read, and during every last one of them she will continue to be a girl -- and should always be treated as such. To treat her as something else would be to disrespect her femininity.

 

The fact that you would have us deny what she is in order for this to work should probably tell you it's not good.

 

OK, so to simplify and satisfy for the single digits......Girls are gonna wrestle, and whether its religion, hormones or the 19th amendment that troubles you it is your problem to deal with.  Chicks will wrestle and you can't stop it.  If you insist on it being a problem, I suggest soccer...I hear you can run for hours without touching anyone's naughty parts.

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Its not a sexual issue- if two guys can wrestle and it not be sexual than a guy and a girl can wrestle and it not be sexual.

 

The issue is that it is wrong to violently go after a woman....period...end of story.  I don't care if she is "asking for it" by spitting at you, hitting you, calling your mom bad names, or being a wrestler (I am sure there are some extreme exceptions like she has a knife to a child's throat, etc...).  I, for one, could never go after a woman with the same intensity I did when I competing.  I think most young men feel this way, or at least I hope they do.  Bottom line is one cannot win when wrestling a girl.  You either lose or you beat up a girl- I see no victory in either.  

 

I do think it stinks that there are very limited wrestling opportunities for women to wrestle women in Indiana, but there are options in similar sports- judo, taekwondo, etc...

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Its not a sexual issue- if two guys can wrestle and it not be sexual than a guy and a girl can wrestle and it not be sexual.

 

 

I'm not saying that I'm against girls wrestling, but I don't think there is any doubt that wrestling a girl is not exactly the same thing as wrestling a boy ... or this probably wouldn't be an issue.  I for one have never felt any sexual feelings when I have had physical contact with a male, but there have at times been some stirring of the hormones when I have had physical conact with females ... even if there was no hanky panky going on.  No, there is definitely a difference.

 

That said, we didn't have organized wrestling for kids when I was young although we did do a lot of unorganized wrestling in the neighborhood.  My sisters sometimes participated in the action, and usually won.  I can honestly say that at no time did I feel any difference when I wrestled my sisters vs. when I wrestled some other kid ... but I'm not sure all the other guys felt the same way. 

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It's not a fight, or a violent act.  It's a sport.  It's competition.  If a male wrestler wins over a female wrestler that's not beating up a girl.  If she gets the win, it is a display of being technicaly superior.  I never wrestled a girl, but win or lose I would show her and everyone else in the sport respect for my opponent's ability to compete on my level. 

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It's not a fight, or a violent act.  It's a sport.  It's competition.  If a male wrestler wins over a female wrestler that's not beating up a girl.  If she gets the win, it is a display of being technicaly superior.  I never wrestled a girl, but win or lose I would show her and everyone else in the sport respect for my opponent's ability to compete on my level. 

 

We can just agree to disagree.  American Idol is competition.  Cross-country is a sport.  Wrestling, boxing, etc... is a completely different animal.   

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This is and will always will be discusting . And I don't now any other way of putting it, For a father to allow his daughter to be grouped and whater else you call it is dispicable. Girls this age have no more common sense than a door knob, so the blame is not on the children here.I think this is an ego rush for any parent who has a daughter, with a little bit of athletic ability. For Gods sakes who in ther right mind would want there daughters to be subjected to this kind of physical contact at this age by the opposite sex, is beyond reason.

 

The spelling issues notwithstanding, I can only say that I completely agree.  I can't even imagine sending my daughter out on the mat to roll around with boy in front of hundreds of people.  Nor will I allow my boys to wrestle a girl.  It contradicts everything we have taught them.

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I am the mother of three teenagers, two girls and one son.  I have been involved in sports my whole life (volleyball, basketball, rugby and wrestling) I am a military veteran and have had the experience of one of my daughters wrestling and my son has wrestled for over 13 years and he has wrestled girls.  With that being said...

 

1.  If an individual refuses to participate on any sport or activity due to his belief, then it is his choice, the female (or male) should not be punished.

2.  I play basketball  am I not allow to box-out a male or vice-versa?  What if a shot is blocked?  What if I happen to throw and elbow or the other-way around?  What if I beat him at HORSE?  Am I supposed to throw the game to make him feel better?

3.  I used to play co-ed volleyball and took hits and serves from men, should I have stepped away?  Should I not have served at them?  Should I not have played so I didn't upset anyone?

 

Now let's talk real-world...

1.  Military, clearly this young man will never join the military as you HAVE to rely on your counter-parts and some of them are women including Commanding Officers and some are put in harms way.  He may just have to take an order from a female, how does that factor into his beliefs?

 

2.  Society/Professional world:  How does this kid fit into the real world with his belief's on women?  A female boss for example?  Peers?

 

I have watched Mary Kelly, Sara H and Miracle and there is no dishonor in wrestling them.  Anyone who thinks women should only wrestle women have effectively taken this sport away from some women/girls who have put just as much time (maybe more in some cases) into this sport as the men/boys.  It is not realistic for a womens only team in the high school arena. 

 

My son has wrestled girls and the message to him is the same as when he wrestles the guys...humility, dignity and sportsmanship.  The same values apply to both sexes.

 

I could go another avenue with this post regarding the fear of boys being beat by girls/women but that is not my point.  This is 2011 and if girls want to wrestle let them.  If boys don't want them to wrestle girls then let them forfiet for whatever reason, but don't challenge the girl's right to participate.  This should not be national news, it was one individual's decision that now reflects poorly on women in wrestling and that is just wrong.

 

I have been called a "turd" on this site before and probably will again for what I posted.  But it is what I believe as an advocate of wrestling (for everyone).

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1.  If an individual refuses to participate on any sport or activity due to his belief, then it is his choice, the female (or male) should not be punished.

2.  I play basketball  am I not allow to box-out a male or vice-versa?  What if a shot is blocked?  What if I happen to throw and elbow or the other-way around?  What if I beat him at HORSE?  Am I supposed to throw the game to make him feel better?

 

 

1.  I don't have any problem if a girl wants to wrestle.

2.  I wouldn't allow my daughter to wrestle.

3.  If you are a female and you block me out in basketball, for the record, we just spooned.

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As I see it there are several issues:

 

The religious issue is just that and although I don't agree with Northrup's interpretation of what is morally right, he certainly has his right to an opinion and I commend him for sticking up with it.

 

The idea that any touching of the opposite sex in a non-sexual activity is forbidden simply because it involves the opposite sex is more bothersome to me.  I believe that women are more than just a sexual object and that we need to interact with them at all levels in society.  Teaching kids that girls/women can be dealt with for who they are and not by the 50/50 chance of their gender doesn't seem to me to be a bad thing.  Inherent with this lesson is that inappropriate behavior can be inappropriate regardless of the venue.  Teaching what is appropriate behavior should be a part of every adult's interaction with kids.

 

Along the same vein, what if a wrestler were gay?  I would find it hard to believe that there is not a gay wrestler in the state of Indiana.  It would be that wrestler's responsibility to treat his opponent with respect and not behave in an inappropriate manner.  Say that wrestler "came out".  Would they have the right to wrestle for the state championship?  How would he feel if he won the state championship just because no one would wrestle him?

 

Finally, the whole bit about chivalry.  If a girl wants to wrestle (and to do so at this point requires her to wrestle boys), the last thing she would want is to be treated with deference.  If you truly respect her, then try to pin her if you can.  That is what she would want.

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I am the mother of three teenagers, two girls and one son.  I have been involved in sports my whole life (volleyball, basketball, rugby and wrestling) I am a military veteran and have had the experience of one of my daughters wrestling and my son has wrestled for over 13 years and he has wrestled girls.   With that being said...

 

1.  If an individual refuses to participate on any sport or activity due to his belief, then it is his choice, the female (or male) should not be punished.

2.  I play basketball  am I not allow to box-out a male or vice-versa?  What if a shot is blocked?  What if I happen to throw and elbow or the other-way around?  What if I beat him at HORSE?  Am I supposed to throw the game to make him feel better?

3.  I used to play co-ed volleyball and took hits and serves from men, should I have stepped away?  Should I not have served at them?  Should I not have played so I didn't upset anyone?

 

Now let's talk real-world...

1.  Military, clearly this young man will never join the military as you HAVE to rely on your counter-parts and some of them are women including Commanding Officers and some are put in harms way.  He may just have to take an order from a female, how does that factor into his beliefs?

 

2.  Society/Professional world:  How does this kid fit into the real world with his belief's on women?  A female boss for example?  Peers?

 

I have watched Mary Kelly, Sara H and Miracle and there is no dishonor in wrestling them.  Anyone who thinks women should only wrestle women have effectively taken this sport away from some women/girls who have put just as much time (maybe more in some cases) into this sport as the men/boys.  It is not realistic for a womens only team in the high school arena. 

 

My son has wrestled girls and the message to him is the same as when he wrestles the guys...humility, dignity and sportsmanship.  The same values apply to both sexes.

 

I could go another avenue with this post regarding the fear of boys being beat by girls/women but that is not my point.  This is 2011 and if girls want to wrestle let them.  If boys don't want them to wrestle girls then let them forfiet for whatever reason, but don't challenge the girl's right to participate.  This should not be national news, it was one individual's decision that now reflects poorly on women in wrestling and that is just wrong.

 

I have been called a "turd" on this site before and probably will again for what I posted.  But it is what I believe as an advocate of wrestling (for everyone). 

 

I am the father of five sons and one girl.  I am also a military veteran, Marine Infantry in fact, where females are not allowed to serve and with good reason.  With that being said....

 

None of my sons will wrestle a girl.  My daughter will not wrestle.  Why?  For all the reasons we have stated above which no one wants to address.  It is not a matter of fear of losing.  It is a matter of principle, as has already been stated.  The mere fact that the year happens to be 2011 is completely irrelevant to the discussion.  I don't care if it is the year 2011 or the year 3011, or just the year 11,  the principle does not change.  Why?  Because human nature is what it is, always has been and always will be.  Weave whatever sophistry you like, it will not change that fact.

 

And by the way, thank you for your service.  I sincerely mean that.

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