SunDevils

4 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The main thing I'm looking a with a 16/14 or 15/13 rule would be participation and more specifically retention of athletes. If I had a $1 for every kid that retired early due to seeing the writing on the wall that they wouldn't be varsity I would be rich. Kids aren't going to put in the work to be JV as a junior and senior and I honestly don't blame them. At the small schools this would help with the JV kids that are stuck in the middle especially when they have small number anyway. 

 

There is a forfeit problem, but the problem isn't the weight classes it's a participation problem. We need to get kids out for the sport and keep them out at the same time. Giving them an opportunity to wrestle in the state series is a healthy carrot to stick in front of them to keep them working hard and in the sport.

Also, a 15/13 or 16/14 scenario could incorporate a lot of strategy. Coaches could depending on their sectionals could really impact the state tournament if they use wise discretion and implement their two extra wrestlers at weight classes they are likely to advance. Which means smaller teams could get more points in the state tournament and could lead to a more diverse team invite list to A and AA of the ISWCA tournament. 

1 hour ago, davecloud said:

Reducing opportunities for athletes is not the answer. What happens if this doesn't work? Do we drop to 12 weights...11? How about going the Olympic route and just have 6 weights? While forfeits can happen at large or small schools, it would seem the problem is most severe at smaller schools. Why not have a smaller number of weights for smaller schools?

If you have a smaller number of weight classes for smaller schools then Indiana would be forced to class. And based on some of the previous forum conversations heaven forbid Indiana ever follow suit with its surrounding mid-western wrestling states and class wrestling. My guess is the frustration, panic, and sadness would trump the response of COVID. 

3 hours ago, AlaskanMountie said:

Again, I'm in favor of the 15/13 idea and I think it's a step in the right direction. Just not sold on it significantly decreasing the number of forfeits. 

The only way to significantly decrease forfeits is make the sport easier. The reality is that wrestling is tough and not for everyone.
 

I don’t think anyone would vote for making the sport easier.  I agree with the sentiment how much of an impact would 15/13 make on the total number of forfeits? If it decreases it by 5% is it worth? If it decreases it by 25%? Or 40%? I am curious if there are projections to be ran for the possible impact in terms of % points. 

Thanks that's a great resource. 

I saw Drew Hildebrandt went 31-3 and finished ranked 5th according to the intermat- obviously a strong candidate to AA this season, 31-3 is an amazing college record- who did he lose to? Were they close matches? 

This bracket is flawed if Andrew Howe does not win. It's hard to imagine given his only loss being to Reece Humphrey his freshmen year and his success at all levels he is not Indiana's greatest. Note: I realize this is focused on high school credentials. 

That being said seeing some of the names listed shows Indiana has had a lot of talent. And now it looks like many of them Parris, Micic, Lee (Brayton and Nick), Micic, Tsirtsis, Escebedo, Red, and others are making national noise on a much more consistent basis at the collegiate level. State is doing big things.

3 hours ago, wrestlenewbie said:

 

Thank you for the information. It is good to have informed content.

 

I was the one who commented on scholarship limits. Though I called them artificial rather than arbitrary. And what you describe (the impact of Title IX) is certainly artificial. I agree this is a very complex situation combined with a complex rule set. I am saying the rule set can change.

 

Of course, this is so much more broadly reaching than just wrestling.  All other sports are impacted and would need to be considered in the equation. I assume that the people making these decisions will attempt to be creative in finding a solution. I hope the solution will involve some level of opportunity for the affected athletes, but I acknowledge that may not be possible. 

Unless the NCAA eats the cost and does not burden the academic institutions then the rule set will not change. And since borrowing from the endowment is absolutely not an option then athletic departments would be left scrambling to find some form of alternative funding.

Generally speaking you are correct in stating the number of scholarships allowed set forth by Title IX is artificial. However, that artificial number is what keeps some programs from discontinuing. Schools like Akron would not be able to compete with the likes of Ohio State. Additionally, schools like Arizona State would not be able to compete with USC if not for the current scholarship restrictions set forth by Title IX. In fact, many schools in the Big Ten, PAC 12, SEC, and so on would not be able to compete or have athletics if it were not for profit sharing within conferences. Ohio State, Michigan, Nebraska, and Wisconsin football absolutely help subsidize the costs of Purdue, Indiana, Northwestern, Rutgers,and Illinois football.

I think the NCAA should have postponed, not cancelled the tournaments. And unless the NCAA bears the burden of costs then it would be remarkable if athletes were granted an additional year or scholarship allotments were increased.

14 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

There is a lot to "work" out there.

1. How do scholarships work? Most schools were planning on having those guys on scholarship. 
2. Who exactly will get them?
3. What would happen to those that were planning on entering the lineup next year? 

This would also have to be for ALL sports which with #1 could be a big scholarship hit and cost the universities a lot of money.

 

Honestly, i think it would be more likely they somehow make NCAA's in May than they give 330 wrestlers extra years.

These are all very good questions. As someone who works (and has worked for a couple) major institutions and has been involved with student-athletes (male and female) in revenue generating (which is deceptive- since the NCAA not the institutions generate most of the revenue) and "non-revenue generating sports" it would be extremely unlikely, unless the NCAA eats the cost - which they won't - that they would grant another year of eligibility. 

I can tell you based on the conversations I have had with some people here at ASU that you are on the money in suggesting that it is more likely to hold the NCAA's in May and that is going to be suggested. Also, as far as scholarships are concerned universities package them uniquely due to the fact student-athletes do not have to meet the same standards of non-student athletes for academic merit based scholarships (or admission to the university). Therefore, an above average academic student athlete can get an academic scholarship that has more dollars than a non-student athlete. Additionally, grants can be packaged for any student, athlete and non-athlete, in unique ways. 

Also, (I realize Y2 did not bring this up but someone else did) scholarship allotments are seemingly arbitrary but that is far from reality. Title IX has huge implications on scholarship allotments. There must be an equal number of male and female athletes on campus. Additionally, at a micro-level if you breakdown what goes into a scholarship (housing, food, special tutoring services, athletic academic advisers, travel, dietitians, trainers, stipend, and so on) each scholarship granted in the PAC 12 equates to roughly $130,000 per student - I know the SEC equates to roughly $145,000 per scholarship. Therefore, by adding 5 wrestling scholarships to cover the additional year in just wrestling it is over a million dollars of cost incurred by the school and not the NCAA and I can promise you MOST universities cannot afford that additional cost. And per federal regulations you cannot simply borrow from the endowment since athletics is required by law to function as an auxiliary service - meaning they should run off of profit earned - since it is not accessible to all students and does not benefit all students. Sadly, most athletic programs in the USA do not operate in the black at a macro-level it may seem to be true but on a micro-level that is not a reality. For all of these reasons (and more) I would be glad to answer questions from an administrative level, if possible, it is extremely unlikely they grant a 5th year but universities will propose a later tournament date once the hysteria settles. 

8 hours ago, FCFIGHTER170 said:

Andy Uhl beat Andrae Hernandez 2x at state..

 

Is the Hector Mendez that beat Andy Uhl the dad of Jesse Mendez? 

1 hour ago, Sutton047 said:

The following scenario will never ever happen, but go with me here haha. I propose the ticket round move to the first round of semi state then after that wrestle backs to 3rd, but take the top 6 from each SS expanding the state tourney to 32 at each weight. The 5s & 6s from each weight have to wrestle twice on Friday night to advance. So the 5s & 6s from each weight feed into the 4-4s then the winners of that move into face the 1s. Then proceed with Saturday morning the 1v4/5/6 matches with the losers going home, get rid of the multi hour break between the consoles and the finals and have the kids who in Saturday morning wrestle 3 more matches throughout the rest of Saturday.

If you take the top 6 from each semi-state isn’t it top 24 not 32. So you are only expanding by 8. Or did I get lost in the math? Not sure where 32 is coming from. 

12 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

It’s not overblown at all. To say, “lumping a comment or two,” THAT isn’t fair or reality. Go on FloWrestling’s Instagram page or read back to the thread on their match last year. There were plenty of comments that were valid points for hate towards CJ because they were bitter about him winning in high school. It’s just ridiculous grown men find time to bash a kid who’s 100x the wrestler they are/were. All I’m saying is remain classy and everyone on here has done a great job of that so far. 

Y’all don’t turn this is into the Mendez Effect thread.

No one was attacking Red on this thread- you went out of your way to say “stay classy.” Also, this isn’t the Flo instagram it is Indianamat (apples to oranges). Lastly, it’s always wise to avoid comments on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter- quite literally proven to be better for mental health. 
 

Two amazing wrestlers that both should hopefully AA again this year. Hopefully both Red and Lee finish in the top 5 this season - and one of them wins the national title since next year when Yianni is back the task becomes increasingly difficult. 

58 minutes ago, navy80 said:

Alex Tsirtsis had a close match with Craig Weinzapfel from Mater Dei. Craig actually beat him in freestyle in high school. Then in high school state finals... maybe it was the semi finals where Alex beat Craig by a few points. 
 

Angel Escobedo had a few close matches in his career and even one loss out of state. 
 

Jason Tsirtsis has a few close matches. 
 

Blake Maurer was the king of winning close matches. Same with Chad Red. 
 

Mason Paris’s was dominate but had one loss his freshman year. He is comparable. All the Lee has losses. 
 

I’ve followed Indiana high school wrestling since 1999 and haven’t seen anyone like Jesse Mendez. 

If we are going off of “impressive or dominant” you forgot Andrew Howe- only loss was to Reece Humphrey. I think there is a strong case that Andrew Howe is still (although Mendez could catch him and Mason Parris flirted with it) the best Indiana wrestler of all time. Even with his one loss. 
 

And though I never saw him wrestle I am assuming people also tried to avoid Lance Ellis. 

15 hours ago, mdspiderman81 said:

I have a legal question for you folks, how do we go about placing a gag order on PhillyFanMD.

You don’t have to like them or respect their opinion but to want a gag order is a bit thin skinned. Also, they make the board more entertaining. 

On 12/30/2019 at 6:00 PM, navy80 said:

 

It's an interesting scenario. I don't see anyone going three periods with Mendez this year. He will likely pin or tech fall everyone through another state title. Imagine how it will be as a junior and senior for him. I couldn't blame him if he went to Mt. Carmel with Alex or followed the Lee's path.... 

Is there any Nick Lee level stud moving up the ranks that would go at Mendez like the Lee/Micic matchup? Obviously senior Mendez would be favored. Or does Zeke gain some weight and produce a Red/Lee type match? 

Jesse Mendez reminds me a lot of Andrew Howe/Nick Lee regarding his aggression offensively. He makes good wrestlers look average at best. It’s remarkable. 
 

Being able to watch him on the IHSAA app for last years state finals and the Mishawaka Channel on YouTube was a privilege. 
 

Curious to see if Zeke and Mendez find themselves in the pantheon of Howe, Escebedo, Lee, Red, Parris, Humphrey, and Micic when it is all said and done (high school and college careers  combined). And I am assuming Joe Lee and Brayton Lee have AA status in their near future as well. They both look to be on that trajectory. 
 

Penn State obviously graduated many, many studs. And it feels like Alabama and Clemson football at this point that PSU will just reload- been that way since Sanderson took the helm but are they vulnerable this year? Could Michigan, Ohio State, Iowa, Minnesota, or Arizona State challenge them this year? 

14 hours ago, aoberlin said:

You will never see me bash another high school coach (maybe Joe)  or a wrestler publicly on this forum.  I have steered away from it since the beginning.  With that said this is a little bit of a fair point.  I have been critical of Goldman in the past.  But.... Culver and other private schools that can openly recruit with tuition incentives may be another story since they are almost like colleges.  I will have to ponder that one.   

I agree with you wholeheartedly no student-athlete should ever be demeaned or dehumanized, one would think that is self-evident but among some posters it clearly is not. And I would agree that no coach should be demeaned or dehumanized. However, my question was genuinely one of intrigue what constitutes "bashing?" For example, I see nothing wrong saying that there were different philosophies, that expectations were unmet based on previous conversations, or that they believe they can find more suitable coaching elsewhere.

If I were to define "bashing" (I am open to revision and new ideas) it would be unfair critique that doesn't involve wrestling in any capacity and attacks a coach or student personally (i.e. posting on a board that an athlete has "issues with authority)."

14 minutes ago, CoachTJC said:

This is quite a strong opinion for someone who admittedly doesn't have any knowledge of the facts or circumstances. I responded to the post regarding an inaccurate comment about my son and clarified why we left Culver to set the record straight and diffuse any additional ridiculous rumors being circulated. This is nowhere near bashing, it is not a loosely formed opinion, it was a personal experience along with others who are not returning. Had we not been misled in the first place, we would have had a completely different expectation level to base our decision to attend upon and this situation would have never occurred. Titles are irrelevant, the type of person my son is and the character of those he's surrounded by is far more important. Furthermore I'm not seeking anyone's approval of my explanation. Although I could have, I specifically did not elaborate with additional details. You can take it however you want but "bashing" was not my objective. I'm simply stating the facts.

Just curious at what point is it considered "bashing?" For example, Goldman (former IU coach) got "bashed" all the time- whatever that term even means. Is it acceptable because he is a college coach? My assumption is it cannot be based on compensation since I suspect a majority of high school coaches are compensated in some capacity- even though that compensation is likely inconsequential since teachers and coaches are widely underappreciated and underpaid. 

It seems as though we live in a society that is thin skinned and really takes any form of critique as "bashing."

Coach TJC seemed to present a reasonable explanation without naming specifics a fair and appropriate response.

Innocent until proven guilty. That being said hazing incident- or not- clearly discretion was lacking. Young men need to realize, especially high profile young men, that eventually actions will be uncovered. However, if guilty then I hope justice is appropriately served.

3 hours ago, Mattyb said:

This is so true. Also... does anybody know what he would like to study? Knowing his family, I can almost guarantee that his academics will play a huge part in his decision. I’m not sure about his grades but I can almost promise you that his dad and mom don’t play! I bet you he picks a school that has excellence in his academic interests. He’s a kid that gets it and can have a great conversation at a young age. I think many times (as wrestling people) we over look that. Super impressive. 

He should come to ASU. Especially if he has interests in engineering (partnerships with Boeing, Honeywell, and Intel) and business- specifically supply chain management and finance. Some of the better programs in the nation. Also, the wrestling program is on the rise. I'm not biased or anything...

With the new Flo rankings which has Matt Lee ranked 3rd nationally it made me curious who everyone thought is the best wrestling family in Indiana history? As far as sibling accolades it will be hard to beat the Lee's if I had to guess. But great families can also include a coaching history as well. 

Some of the great ones are no doubt would be: Tonte's, Tsirtsis, Lee's, Weinzapfels, Humphries, Baker's, Escebedo's, Bradley's, and Welch's.

5 minutes ago, TeamGarcia said:

Loss Credentials

(3) National Ranked- (Mills, Decatur, Burnett) 

(5) State Championships- Decatur 2x, Rooks 2x, Viduya, Burnett ? Still wrestling 

(6) State Runner Ups - (Mills 2x, Viduya, Rooks, Murphy, Burnett) 

 

 

 

The only thing to dislike about Asa is his choosing IU over ASU. Not that I am biased or anything...

1 hour ago, TeamGarcia said:

162-12 

Freshman - (4) Ty Mills, (2) Keyon Murphy 

Sophomore- (1) Viduya 

Junior- (2) Ty Mills, (1) Cayden Rooks (1) Ohio Jordan Decatur 

Senior- (1) Ohio Mick Burnett 

 

Thank You 

 

Asa reminds me a lot of Cash Quiroga- never afraid of a challenge seeking out the best competition. 2 state champions on that list of losses and possibly the best to never win a state title in Indiana in Ty Mills. Fantastic career.

Fairly certain for 2 years no one earned a point on Andrew Howe. I think the only individuals who scored on him were the ones he cut. Still, in my opinion, the best Indiana wrestler of all time, for now at least. 

16 minutes ago, MattM said:

Big screen TV.  Computer with HDMI connection.  Open 4 browser windows (one for each of the mats) in your computer.  Size each window to fit to each corner of your computer screen.  Turn off volume to all but one of the screens.  Get comfortable on your coach and enjoy.  I’ve done this a few time for some trackwrestling hosted events and it works well.  

Unless  you are married to "your coach" then I wouldn't get comfortable on them or enjoy. someone could get fired or end up in jail