UncleJimmy Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 So the trick is not to get the IHSAA involved then. The lesson here is not to piss off the departing school admin, then the IHSAA transfer rules really don't apply. I don't think we need to be "privy to all the details", we just need to understand how the system really works. Took a while but they don't call him Scholar for nothing!! McWrastlePants, Penn04 and unknown wrestler 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 So the trick is not to get the IHSAA involved then. The lesson here is not to piss off the departing school admin, then the IHSAA transfer rules really don't apply. I don't think we need to be "privy to all the details", we just need to understand how the system really works. That is the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regionrumbler Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Scholar: Thank you for making it crystal clear. That's exactly what I called the flaw in the system earlier. Hypothetically, two families can violate the transfer rules in exactly the same way and one gets investigated and loses eligibilty, whereas the other doesn't even get investigated. Difference: in one case it was contested, the other it was not. Unequal justice. Seems very wrong. Btw, you mentioned a midseason transfer earlier...yep, that happened too this year and that wrestler will be wrestling Friday night. Wrestling Scholar and grapplegirl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regionrumbler Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Hungus:Maybe we're talking semantics, but isn't the IHSAA "involved" in the uneven application of their own rules, simply because they set up the system of reporting of violations...ie. The schools contesting portion of the process. Obviously they know the end result will be some people getting investigated and some not, for the exact same violations. grapplegirl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McWrastlePants Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Going back to the slam. From where I was sitting on the floor it looked like a few slams. The last "slam" did not look hard at all and looked perfectly fine to me. Saying that, Bautista did have the arm trapped and returned him on the side DeMien was unable to protect himself. I do recall 4 years ago that Gaige Torres was given a DQ for doing the same exact return on a SB Clay kid. Bautista did return DeMien the same way three times after he was already called for 2 slams. Bautista should have looked for a different way to return and secure his two points to move the match to overtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Hungus:Maybe we're talking semantics, but isn't the IHSAA "involved" in the uneven application of their own rules, simply because they set up the system of reporting of violations...ie. The schools contesting portion of the process. Obviously they know the end result will be some people getting investigated and some not, for the exact same violations. I suppose in the same way the judicial system is involved trying to keep you from breaking the speed limit. Unless law enforcement contests that you were breaking the speed limit, you can break the law as often and as severely as you want. Yet I can get ticketed and fined for the exact same violation. I guess I would not blame the judicial system for my ticket. Can the system be gamed? sure. But the IHSAA can't investigate each and every one of the thousands of transfers that occur each year. Edited February 13, 2017 by KarlHungus vito pepperelli 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regionrumbler Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Oh boy Hungus you stepped in my arena now! I have a few tickets to prove it. If the IHSAA was as diligent as the ISP, there would be no discussion needed. Lol. I don't blame the Judicial System for my tickets...I earn them and I own them. Your point is a good one, and a great analogy. Sometimes I speed and pay the piper and sometimes I don't. Here's my analogy: I liken the uneven application of the transfer rules to when you, Caprino and I are driving in a convoy to the State Finals going 20mph over and the lights come on and I get pulled over and you and Joe get waved on! Lol. Unequal Justice! grapplegirl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 That's the point of a convoy. They can't stop us all. base 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobo Brazil Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 (edited) Crazy Karl! Ha Edited February 13, 2017 by Bobo Brazil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaiderColfax Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 Regionrumbler, I just read that under the NFHS rules a slam can be called if the ref feels inexcessive force was used on the return. Also it does not matter if the returners knee hit before the opponent hits the mat, it can still be called a slam if again the ref feels incessive force was used. My reading skills are on par I guess you can say since I found this. My apologies for saying safety wasn't a concern to you, and this sucks for both guys involved. regionrumbler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regionrumbler Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Raider: Yes, you are right the NFHS gives officials lee-way/discretion. However, officials are trained on guidelines to use to know what they should consider "excessive" force. My point is we need to stay very close to those guidelines for consistency and to enhance the safety. If coaches and athlete's think it is very subjective, they often push the envelope to see how much they can get away with. The more consistently we apply the rules, the less ambiguity, the better. I am sure you and I want the same safety, just getting to it a little differently. This thread has proved many folks...fans, coaches, officials...saw Bautista's returns in a completely different way. Hopefully as trained officials, the disparity in opinion isn't as varied. I'd like to think officials are more unified in opinions, especially regarding safety rules and guidelines. Safety is a tough topic in the current climate of concussion protocol. Many people think we can't protect too much. I'm not in that camp. I think there are inherent risks in wrestling or any sport and we have to be careful to all be on the same page, otherwise we may create other unintended consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regionrat1 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Harper worked da refs pretty good. Da takedown reversed on Fatore -- Da slam call was pretty weak in my book - I think dis is a tough sport throw45 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaiderColfax Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 It's a judgmental call, one may see it one way and the other sees it differently. And as you saw Saturday there was absolutely no consistency on any call. Regionrat1 and Bobo Brazil 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I only saw the last "slam" and didn't think it alone was illegal. He didn't appear to have the arm trapped and I've seen others that were brought down harder without being called. That being said after the second one was called I would have been sure not to lift him off the ground. throw45 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throw45 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I was in attendance, and I love the commitment of the referees there, but some of them have no doubt watched little to no high level/NCAA wrestling, nor do they probably care to. Age has nothing to do with it. It was an older crew by and large at this SS, but I know plenty of older referees that still get after it, and are avid fans of the sport. Many of them probably DVR good college matches and communicate with other referees. At the Semi State level, HS matches should resemble those at the NCAA level with the only exception being actual rules differences. There are many referees, NOT ALL, who just don't seem to be in tune with what's going on in wrestling in 2017. I applaud the officials' associations that invite coaches to discuss trends each year, and this should be mandatory for both to attend in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regionrumbler Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 (edited) I was in attendance, and I love the commitment of the referees there, but some of them have no doubt watched little to no high level/NCAA wrestling, nor do they probably care to. Age has nothing to do with it. It was an older crew by and large at this SS, but I know plenty of older referees that still get after it, and are avid fans of the sport. Many of them probably DVR good college matches and communicate with other referees. At the Semi State level, HS matches should resemble those at the NCAA level with the only exception being actual rules differences. There are many referees, NOT ALL, who just don't seem to be in tune with what's going on in wrestling in 2017. I applaud the officials' associations that invite coaches to discuss trends each year, and this should be mandatory for both to attend in my opinion. Throw45: You said it very well! Sports evolve and each year there are nuances, which need to be learned by officials. A few years ago it was scrambling, which required some adjusting by officials. Bautista looked like a strong, high level wrestler and some of what he was doing reminded me of what colleges teach. Many where I was watching, commented that his returns were only receiving gasps from people who don't watch 125 pounders on BTN. It is a shame he isn't wrestling this weekend. Harper was a college wrestler. I'm guessing he knew Alex was doing some very good wrestling. He probably also knew the official was likely to be cautious in his approach. I may be wrong, but it seemed that Harper's boy, on restart after restart, put himself in the same position. They must have been confident that they would either get the escape or entice Alex to lift again. Both wrestlers did the same things and wound up in the exact same position 3-4 times. If Gilman or Tomasello repeatedly returned a wrestler the same way Bautista did, Jim Gibbons would commend him. College isn't High School, but the good kids are being taught many of the same methods in the Penn room, at RWA, etc, as colleges teach. Edited February 15, 2017 by regionrumbler MOWrestler and UncleJimmy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 As a coach, I get where many of you are coming from who feel the DQ was unjustified. As a dad, I would rather an official err on the side of athlete safety than on the side of calling matches like they do in college. Furthermore, if you are dinged for a judgement call violation twice, it is generally advisable not to force an official to make the judgement again. RaiderColfax 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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