Some more stats from 2015 State

[KarlHungus]

Do you agree that the type of school make up is an important factor? Do you disagree?  Is this data relevant when discussing a schools ability to have more students to choose from for athletics? 

 

What data?  You have mentioned one school with a good wrestling program (subjective) that has 50% or higher free and reduced?  Is 50% a high percentage, a low percentage.  How am I to evaluate this piece of datum??  It should really be in a different thread, this thread is about enrollment, not free and reduced lunches.

[MD92]

Pennsylvania, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa apparently all don't get it either....good thing we smoke them in any sort of national event.....or college success rate query

 

I find it ironic that we are pulling teeth to increase numbers in Freestyle/Greco State to improve our national scene but discuss something similar in HS and everyone loses there mind 

Wrestling is more embedded in the culture in those states (throw in Oklahoma and Ohio too) than it is in Indiana.  Indiana has been, and always will be, a basketball state.  Iowa and Pennsylvania are wrestling states.  I don't think those states being classed has anything to do with it.  I think them having successful collegiate programs at all levels, particulary D1, greatly helps because there are more opportunities for their wrestlers to go on to college.  Then when they are finished likely go back and coach at the HS level.  And the system keeps feeding itself.  They have more opportunities for year round training with clubs, etc. that it really doesn't matter if they are in a small class or not.  Indiana is so far behind them in this regard.

[Y2CJ41]

Karlhungus

Actually Borta told the Head Football coach that he wanted to win a state title in wrestling and had no interest in playing football. He started out as a little guy and no other sport had interest in him until he blew up physically and blossomed into the physical kid that he became to be. Just like the rest of our kids, I told Borta to chase your dream and do whatever you want. Yes he probably could have helped another sport but that is not what he wanted to do, which is fine with me and should be fine with everyone.

 

Joe

Never did I say or imply that our system made Howe or Micic. I simply used them as an example to show you that small schools do have kids that want to only focus on wrestling and some have made that choice and obviously has seen success. They don't have as many (by choice) but small schools do have some. You implying that I said our system made Howe is again you assuming things.

 

My entire argument has been that small school kids can get to the state tournament/placer/champ level if they want to put their time into it.. Has absolutely nothing to do with numbers and percentages that you guys post. All the percentages show is that small school kids aren't CHOOSING to train at that level. Which is FINE. You think we need a tournament to accommodate the kids that can't/wont for whatever reason put in the time to be at that level, I personally do not think we need to create a new individual tournament for that reason. I know 40+ states think the same as you, that's awesome for them. Me personally, I do not think so.

 

As far as my schedule, from August to the end of the football season I do nothing with our high school wrestlers (most play a sport in the fall anyway). For those that don't play another sport, my assistants run weights and conditioning for them. My non fall sport kids also attend CIA in the fall. Once football is over I am strictly focused on wrestling until June. Once June hits, we have football (all fall sports program) lifting in the morning 7-830 then more football stuff until 10:30 am. Once I am done with football for the day, my wrestlers (all wrestlers including those that play fall sports) workout/drill/live etc. until 1pm, and this continues until August. It's a grueling schedule but we know it must be this way in order for our kids to get to the level that they want.

 

Any other questions on how we try to maximize our kids potential at a small school?

The specialization argument is great, but there are also things like practice partners, number of coaches and level of coaching, access to off-season activities, amongst other factors that play into it as well. Does Zac or Nick come closer to their goals if they have a couple state level kids to work with? Do they come closer to their goals if their head coach isn't off coaching football during the summer and fall?  These are all things that were limited at their schools and will affect their ability to reach their goals.

 

Forcing small school kids to choose one sport shouldn't be the answer. Heck South Adams got to state last year because of Sawyer Miller, he was also the 1A Cross Country runner of the year. Should he not run they probably don't get out of sectional.

 

Why have other states recognized these differences and chosen to class wrestling and Indiana is different? Are we ahead of the curve because of this? Should we continue to hurt small school athletics because of wrestling becoming more and more a specialized sport?

Because you are using those 2000 kids to justify your stance on classing wrestling. Those 2000 kids give you more wrestlers. Those 2000 kids give you better coaching. Those 2000 kids give you better off season opportunities. Those 2000 kids give you more community support. Those 2000 kids MATTER in your argument for class wrestling. If they "have no bearing what-so-ever on wrestling state qualifiers in the state. None, zilch, nada, NOTHING" then we have no need to class.

If those 2000 kids don't matter at all that suggests we keep a one class system

 

If those 2000 kids DO matter that suggests we should look into a classed system

Not saying they are wrong or right. I'm saying I personally don't think we should make a change to accommodate your argument of kids not having a fair shot because they are unable to put in the time to reach that level. And I'm explaining to you how it is possible for small school kids or kids in general no matter what school they go to can get to that level in our system if they want. I guess we can agree to disagree.

We should "accommodate" this to grow the sport. Is wrestling growing at the small school level with our current system of forcing kids to make a choice?

[bwoodjc89]

Wrestling is more embedded in the culture in those states (throw in Oklahoma and Ohio too) than it is in Indiana.  Indiana has been, and always will be, a basketball state.  Iowa and Pennsylvania are wrestling states.  I don't think those states being classed has anything to do with it.  I think them having successful collegiate programs at all levels, particulary D1, greatly helps because there are more opportunities for their wrestlers to go on to college.  Then when they are finished likely go back and coach at the HS level.  And the system keeps feeding itself.  They have more opportunities for year round training with clubs, etc. that it really doesn't matter if they are in a small class or not.  Indiana is so far behind them in this regard.

How do we catch up to them?  Do we get more kids to wrestle? If so, how do you suggest we go about getting more kids to wrestle?  Some of us have a good suggestion to try...

[swain358]

The specialization argument is great, but there are also things like practice partners, number of coaches and level of coaching, access to off-season activities, amongst other factors that play into it as well. Does Zac or Nick come closer to their goals if they have a couple state level kids to work with? Do they come closer to their goals if their head coach isn't off coaching football during the summer and fall?  These are all things that were limited at their schools and will affect their ability to reach their goals.

 

Forcing small school kids to choose one sport shouldn't be the answer. Heck South Adams got to state last year because of Sawyer Miller, he was also the 1A Cross Country runner of the year. Should he not run they probably don't get out of sectional.

 

Why have other states recognized these differences and chosen to class wrestling and Indiana is different? Are we ahead of the curve because of this? Should we continue to hurt small school athletics because of wrestling becoming more and more a specialized sport?

So Joe quote me where I said I force kids to choose one sport? I'm sure you can find may quotes where I have said my kids choose what they want to do.

 

Sawyer Miller is a great example of an incredible athlete that was able to do both sports. Out of curiosity, I would like to know which sport he trained the most during the spring and summer? I honestly don't know the answer and am not trying to imply anything. I would like to see his offseason regimate. And again 3 of our 5 semi state qualifiers were 2 sport athletes so it's possible for 2 sport athletes to get to that level as well.

[KarlHungus]

Not saying they are wrong or right. I'm saying I personally don't think we should make a change to accommodate your argument of kids not having a fair shot because they are unable to put in the time to reach that level. And I'm explaining to you how it is possible for small school kids or kids in general no matter what school they go to can get to that level in our system if they want. I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

I think you are saying they are wrong.  Unless Indiana is a special case?  No one said it isn't possible.  I coach at a school less than half the size of NM and have been on staff that has coached 2 state champs in the last 5 years, I certainly know it's possible.  Just because it's possible does't make it right.

[Y2CJ41]

So Joe quote me where I said I force kids to choose one sport? I'm sure you can find may quotes where I have said my kids choose what they want to do.

 

Sawyer Miller is a great example of an incredible athlete that was able to do both sports. Out of curiosity, I would like to know which sport he trained the most during the spring and summer? I honestly don't know the answer and am not trying to imply anything. I would like to see his offseason regimate. And again 3 of our 5 semi state qualifiers were 2 sport athletes so it's possible for 2 sport athletes to get to that level as well.

You have said a kid needs to dedicate 300 days a year to wrestling to be a state placer/champion. That leaves only 55 days and no other sport season is that long. You have said that small school athletes don't do this, thus they are not state placers and champions.

 

My guess is Sawyer spent 75% of his time wrestling and the rest on cross county, much like Zac and football.

[KarlHungus]

So Joe quote me where I said I force kids to choose one sport? I'm sure you can find may quotes where I have said my kids choose what they want to do.

 

You have said that you tell your kids that want to reach state, they should train 365 wrestling.  I think any high school sport that demands that much is bad for kids in general but especially bad for kids and programs at smaller schools

[Rookies03]

If those 2000 kids don't matter at all that suggests we keep a one class system

 

If those 2000 kids DO matter that suggests we should look into a classed system

So according to your post we should keep 1 class since you only want to look at the 14 varsity wrestlers and not the 2000 Carroll students.

 

Supporters for class wrestling use all these numbers but at the end of the day the % of state qualifiers matches up with the % of population within each class. Its not % of wrestlers entered in the tournament it is % of total population. If you cant see that then I don't know what to tell you. Now as far as placers and champs its not equal. The data shows us that it is harder to place at a 1A school than a 3A school. If you want to change the whole tournament for about 3% of all the wrestlers in Indiana then that is your opinion.

 

Is more kids wrestling (not just at state but at every level) a good thing? Absolutely!

 

Will class wrestling achieve more kids wrestling? I don't know. Only time would tell.

 

Are there other ways to increase the number of kids wrestling? Yes. Improving the relationship of youth association. Improving youth tournaments (eliminate 12 hour long days--Heck eliminate the 12 hour long days for high school). Make wrestling as fun and enjoyable for all kids as possible.

 

If you think class wrestling will get more kids out to wrestle then I am fine with your opinion but the rest of this is just white noise.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Rookies03

[sportsfangms]

With the exception of Iowa, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Illinois all have nearly double the population of Indiana, so you're not comparing apples to apples. Their depth is in numbers, not just because of wrestling classes. The same could be said for Iowa based on participation in the sport of wrestling as a whole. This debate is fun reading material during a slow week, but it reminds me of the Lamb chops song my sister used to love as a kid, "The song that doesn't end", enjoy.............https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNTxr2NJHa0

[Y2CJ41]

So according to your post we should keep 1 class since you only want to look at the 14 varsity wrestlers and not the 2000 Carroll students.

The 14 starters from Carroll are not equal to the 14 starters from Churubusco. They all weigh the same, probably all work hard, all have good coaching, all have good community and school support. Why are the results not the same then? Why are the results not even close?

 

Supporters for class wrestling use all these numbers but at the end of the day the % of state qualifiers matches up with the % of population within each class. Its not % of wrestlers entered in the tournament it is % of total population. If you cant see that then I don't know what to tell you. Now as far as placers and champs its not equal. The data shows us that it is harder to place at a 1A school than a 3A school. If you want to change the whole tournament for about 3% of all the wrestlers in Indiana then that is your opinion.

Again, you are saying school size matters right? If school size affects the individual's chance at going to state then that is a reason to class the sport. Some people thought school size matters for team state, so we classed it.

 

Is more kids wrestling (not just at state but at every level) a good thing? Absolutely!

 

Will class wrestling achieve more kids wrestling? I don't know. Only time would tell.

More kids having some level of success helps the sport. People want to be a part of a winner and that goes for any sport, any activity.

 

Are there other ways to increase the number of kids wrestling? Yes. Improving the relationship of youth association. Improving youth tournaments (eliminate 12 hour long days). Make wrestling as fun for young kids as possible.

 

If you think class wrestling will get more kids out to wrestle then I am fine with your opinion but the rest of this is just white noise.

Are we doing something different at the youth level than other states? I'm curious because I think we have a pretty good youth organization. I don't disagree with those ideas, but at the same time are we behind the times in that area compared to other states?

With the exception of Iowa, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Illinois all have nearly double the population of Indiana, so you're not comparing apples to apples. Their depth is in numbers, not just because of wrestling classes. The same could be said for Iowa based on participation in the sport of wrestling as a whole. This debate is fun reading material during a slow week, but it reminds me of the Lamb chops song my sister used to love as a kid, "The song that doesn't end", enjoy.............https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNTxr2NJHa0

If school size doesn't matter, should state size matter? We just need to work harder right? We need more kids putting 365 days a year into wrestling, right?

[pjayroza]

If you allow Mater Dei to jump up to 3A during team finals.  (Which I agree with btw)  Would you allow a great individual to jump up to a higher class if they want to?

[Super_Fan]

The 14 starters from Carroll are not equal to the 14 starters from Churubusco. They all weigh the same, probably all work hard, all have good coaching, all have good community and school support. Why are the results not the same then? Why are the results not even close?

 

BECAUSE CARROLL HAS 2000 KIDS TO FIND 14 GOOD ONES FROM WHILE CHURUBUSCO HAS 500 KIDS TO FIND 14 GOOD ONES FROM... How is it that hard to understand???

[Y2CJ41]

If you allow Mater Dei to jump up to 3A during team finals.  (Which I agree with btw)  Would you allow a great individual to jump up to a higher class if they want to?

My guess is it would be very difficult to do that, plus I have never seen it done in other states. It would most likely have to be the whole team.

 

I'm sure Churubuso and North Montgomery would jump to the big class if we had class wrestling. No way would they want an easier path to take kids to a fake state championship.

[IU89]

BECAUSE CARROLL HAS 2000 KIDS TO FIND 14 GOOD ONES FROM WHILE CHURUBUSCO HAS 500 KIDS TO FIND 14 GOOD ONES FROM... How is it that hard to understand???

That's one of the MAIN reasons individual State should be classed.  You are the one that doesn't get it.  Small schools are at a huge disadvantage because of this.

[Y2CJ41]

BECAUSE CARROLL HAS 2000 KIDS TO FIND 14 GOOD ONES FROM WHILE CHURUBUSCO HAS 500 KIDS TO FIND 14 GOOD ONES FROM... How is it that hard to understand???

It's not, school size matters I understand that. That is why I am for classed wrestling.

 

Did we class our team state just to give Busco and PH some more trophies or did we do it because they are at a disadvantage?

 

School size matters to you, but you are against classed wrestling...seriously, SERIOUSLY?

 

Why do we class athletics?

[swain358]

You have said that you tell your kids that want to reach state, they should train 365 wrestling.  I think any high school sport that demands that much is bad for kids in general but especially bad for kids and programs at smaller schools

So are you saying that kids don't already know that the more you train at something the better the chances are that you will become better at that? So are you saying that as a coach of a small school, you lock your doors once your season ends? If not, then you are also promoting kids training outside of the wrestling season so apparently you seem to be doing the same thing? Are you also saying that big school coaches are bad coaches because they let their kids train most if not all year around and that they are forcing kids not to play other sports? I'm sure some of those big school state qualifiers would be great cross country runners. So are you on record saying big school coaches are hurting kids by letting them make a choice on wrestling year around? Would you like to see it become a state law/rule that every kid must participate in multiple sports if we plan on keeping our current system? Again I'm just asking these questions so I can fully understand how you feel about a coach letting a kid make a decision to train to reach his ultimate goal. And this is not geared only at small school kids since you stated that any kid training that much isn't good.

[Rookies03]

Again, you are saying school size matters right? If school size affects the individual's chance at going to state then that is a reason to class the sport. Some people thought school size matters for team state, so we classed it.

I didn't say school size mattered. I simply said that 13% of the state qualifiers came from 13% of the population. If 33% of the state qualifiers came from 13% of the population then I would say 1A schools would have an advantage but from a statistical point of view the correct number of kids qualify for state from 1A schools. This is based on population size alone. Classing wrestling is based on population alone.

[swain358]

My guess is it would be very difficult to do that, plus I have never seen it done in other states. It would most likely have to be the whole team.

 

I'm sure Churubuso and North Montgomery would jump to the big class if we had class wrestling. No way would they want an easier path to take kids to a fake state championship.

You are probably right actually for the individual tournament.

[oldandbroke]

Since we can't agree, then does anyone know why other states have classed wrestling? 

[Y2CJ41]

I didn't say school size mattered. I simply said that 13% of the state qualifiers came from 13% of the population. If 33% of the state qualifiers came from 13% of the population then I would say 1A schools would have an advantage but from a statistical point of view the correct number of kids qualify for state from 1A schools. This is based on population size alone. Classing wrestling is based on population alone.

1A schools don't enter 13% of the wrestlers in the state tournament, they enter 33%. So thus 33% of the population yields 13% of the state qualifiers.

 

The 1A 145lber is not equal to the 3A 145lber because of school size, shouldn't EVERYONE be equal? A one class system says EVERYONE is equal regardless of school size.

[Rookies03]

It's not, school size matters I understand that. That is why I am for classed wrestling.

 

Did we class our team state just to give Busco and PH some more trophies or did we do it because they are at a disadvantage?

 

School size matters to you, but you are against classed wrestling...seriously, SERIOUSLY?

 

Why do we class athletics?

Lets say that there is 1 state champ for every 100 male students (I know these aren't close to accurate but for simplicity sake). A school of 400 boys would have 4 state champs. A school of 1000 boys would have 10 state champs. Which TEAM would be better? This is why we class TEAM athletics.

[Y2CJ41]

You are probably right actually for the individual tournament.

So why not for the team tournament? 

 

Just have your kids buy into working 365 days for wrestling, you only need 14 to do that and you'll win state.

[oldandbroke]

Coach where did Nick go to college at?  If it isn't a D1 school are you thinking he will throw his National Champion medal in the trash since the NCAA has classed wrestling if they were to ever hand him one.  That kid was a workaholic from what i hear and seen of him.  I bet he would of been proud to be a classed state champ and a classed NCAA champ.

Coach where did Nick go to college at?  If it isn't a D1 school are you thinking he will throw his National Champion medal in the trash since the NCAA has classed wrestling if they were to ever hand him one.  That kid was a workaholic from what i hear and seen of him.  I bet he would of been proud to be a classed state champ and a classed NCAA champ.

[Y2CJ41]

Lets say that there is 1 state champ for every 100 male students (I know these aren't close to accurate but for simplicity sake). A school of 400 boys would have 4 state champs. A school of 1000 boys would have 10 state champs. Which TEAM would be better? This is why we class TEAM athletics.

I'll use the real numbers for you

 

Approximately 300,000 students in Indiana, that means 1 out of 20,000 are state champs. There are just under 40,000 students in 1A...yet ZERO champs, there are  just over 70,000 in 2A, one champ. Last year we still had zero 1A champs, luckily we had 4 2A champs and 10 3A. In 2013, we had 1 1A champ, WAHOOO finally a 1A champ when we should have 2 a year.

 

Something's wrong here, because if your calculations are right these schools are not getting the champs they should be getting.