oldandbroke Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 Plain and simple explanation. Everyone agrees Iron sharpens Iron, if you don't drill hard and practice like you want to be a state champion and work your butt off in the off season you won't be. If two wrestlers with the same natural ability work just as hard at each other in the off season and are identical on day one of the regular season in skill and ability. One goes to school with 2000 other kids and is on a team with 35 other guys. The other goes to school with 200 others and is on a team with 10 other guys......who will you put your 1000 dollar bet on to place highest in the tourney at the end of the year..... noturk4u 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 And your really going to make me walk through the numbers in order to explain this to you??? ok so here goes nothing... Lets say i have two different school sizes. 1A schools consist of 400 students and 2A school that consist of 2000 students... I'm the wrestling coach and need to find 14 "elite" wrestlers. Who has a better chance of having 14 "elite" wrestlers mr. math? So if this is true, simply based on probability, wouldn't you say that the larger schools 14 wrestlers would typically be better than the 14 wrestlers from the smaller school? Im saying if size of schools matter then we would still only want 1A schools to make up 13% of the "elite" wrestlers in the state? If its more than that then obviously its too many and watered down... Currently we have 5% or whatever you said but with a classed system 50% of the "elite" wrestlers (State champions) would be from 1A schools... But you aren't picking the school. You are picking the individual. You are describing something that has no relevance to this situation, provided that what size school an individual attends does not significantly affect his or her chances of qualifying for state. And thank you for the snarky comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Im saying if size of schools matter then we would still only want 1A schools to make up 13% of the "elite" wrestlers in the state? If its more than that then obviously its too many and watered down... Currently we have 5% or whatever you said but with a classed system 50% of the "elite" wrestlers (State champions) would be from 1A schools... I don't get it? On one hand you don't want to "water down" the tournament but in another post you advocate for having more qualifiers?? Very confusing bog190 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 You seem to misunderstand the dynamics of small school athletics which baffles me since you are at a small school. What you fail to realize is that there are 50 Zac's roaming the halls at Carroll, the football team gets a few, the baseball team gets a few, wrestling gets a few, etc. At Garrett we had a couple of them...and if we wanted to be successful we had to share him. He's a one sport athlete at Carroll, he's a 2-3 sport athlete at Garrett. Add to that he gets three or four state level practice partners at Carroll versus one at Garrett. I'm sure that makes a difference also. That in a nutshell is the difference between big and small schools, which you are the last person that I should be explaining that to. You are still not answering my question though. Should Zac McCray at a small school be forced to play another sport if he does not want to? I definitely understand the dynamics.. But I also understand that kids have a CHOICE to do WHATEVER they want no matter what school they are at? Sounds like you think kids should be FORCED to do things they may not want to do for the good of the school. That's where we disagree. I've always said that if a kid wants to play multiple sports I am ok with it. If a kid only wants to wrestle, I am ok with that? How can you not figure that out from my post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 You are still not answering my question though. Should Zac McCray at a small school be forced to play another sport if he does not want to? I definitely understand the dynamics.. But I also understand that kids have a CHOICE to do WHATEVER they want no matter what school they are at? Sounds like you think kids should be FORCED to do things they may not want to do for the good of the school. That's where we disagree. I've always said that if a kid wants to play multiple sports I am ok with it. If a kid only wants to wrestle, I am ok with that? How can you not figure that out from my post? Do you really think Zac was forced to play football? Do you really think a kid that is forced to play a sport is worth a damn to whatever team? I would say kids should be HIGHLY ENCOURAGED to do multiple sports at small schools for both their and the school's benefit. Most 14 year old kids lack the maturity to make wise decisions. The best kid I ever coached did not want to do a spring sport to focus on wrestling. I highly encouraged him to run track. He was able to have a great experience running track and still reach all of his high school wrestling goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 You are still not answering my question though. Should Zac McCray at a small school be forced to play another sport if he does not want to? I definitely understand the dynamics.. But I also understand that kids have a CHOICE to do WHATEVER they want no matter what school they are at? Sounds like you think kids should be FORCED to do things they may not want to do for the good of the school. That's where we disagree. I've always said that if a kid wants to play multiple sports I am ok with it. If a kid only wants to wrestle, I am ok with that? How can you not figure that out from my post? Again it's the dynamic of a small school. Zac McCray likes football, but loves wrestling. He's not forced to do anything, he wants to play football. Why does he skip out on football at Carroll, but not Garrett? Maybe it's the sense that he is NEEDED at Garrett. Their team suffers greatly if kids like him quit. The ATHLETIC PROGRAM overall suffers also. This is the dynamic of a small school that you fail to grasp. When good athletes specialize it is detrimental to the whole school. When good athletes specialize at Carroll you see little to no affect. We shouldn't have a system in place that forces kids to specialize, especially at smaller schools where you need to SHARE athletes. Once you start having a few athletes start specializing it leads to more and more, then you have a small school with a horrible athletic program. One more thing, why do you coach football? Wouldn't you be better off spending 365 days a year on wrestling? If you were at Anderson, Carroll, Perry Meridian would you be needed as a football coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Again it's the dynamic of a small school. Zac McCray likes football, but loves wrestling. He's not forced to do anything, he wants to play football. Why does he skip out on football at Carroll, but not Garrett? Maybe it's the sense that he is NEEDED at Garrett. Their team suffers greatly if kids like him quit. The ATHLETIC PROGRAM overall suffers also. This is the dynamic of a small school that you fail to grasp. When good athletes specialize it is detrimental to the whole school. When good athletes specialize at Carroll you see little to no affect. We shouldn't have a system in place that forces kids to specialize, especially at smaller schools where you need to SHARE athletes. Once you start having a few athletes start specializing it leads to more and more, then you have a small school with a horrible athletic program. One more thing, why do you coach football? Wouldn't you be better off spending 365 days a year on wrestling? If you were at Anderson, Carroll, Perry Meridian would you be needed as a football coach? And again, you guys aren't reading my post.. I gave you an example of a kid that does NOT want to play another sport. I just used Zac McCray's name because that's the name you gave. How about we change that name to Nick Borta, a kid that had no interest in any other sport and only wanted to wrestle. You do realize that that athlete also exist at small schools right? Andrew Howe, micic, just to name a few. So again, kids can play multiple sports and spend time training each sport equally which is fine.. But you guys seem to think that a kid that has no interest in another sport MUST play at a small school just to help the other sports.. If he has interest and wants to play that's perfectly fine with me. So do we agree that small school athletes have the same choice as big school kids to play other sports and train equally in each sport, play multiple sports but train wrestling more than the other sport, or only wrestle and train wrestling with the majority of their time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 And again, you guys aren't reading my post.. I gave you an example of a kid that does NOT want to play another sport. I just used Zac McCray's name because that's the name you gave. How about we change that name to Nick Borta, a kid that had no interest in any other sport and only wanted to wrestle. You do realize that that athlete also exist at small schools right? Andrew Howe, micic, just to name a few. So again, kids can play multiple sports and spend time training each sport equally which is fine.. But you guys seem to think that a kid that has no interest in another sport MUST play at a small school just to help the other sports.. If he has interest and wants to play that's perfectly fine with me. So do we agree that small school athletes have the same choice as big school kids to play other sports and train equally in each sport, play multiple sports but train wrestling more than the other sport, or only wrestle and train wrestling with the majority of their time? As a football coach did you ever ask Nick why he didn't play football? I remember him as physical tough kid, he surely could have helped your team. Did his not playing football or soccer or x-country enhance his wrestling in anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 And again, you guys aren't reading my post.. I gave you an example of a kid that does NOT want to play another sport. I just used Zac McCray's name because that's the name you gave. How about we change that name to Nick Borta, a kid that had no interest in any other sport and only wanted to wrestle. You do realize that that athlete also exist at small schools right? Andrew Howe, micic, just to name a few. So again, kids can play multiple sports and spend time training each sport equally which is fine.. But you guys seem to think that a kid that has no interest in another sport MUST play at a small school just to help the other sports.. If he has interest and wants to play that's perfectly fine with me. So do we agree that small school athletes have the same choice as big school kids to play other sports and train equally in each sport, play multiple sports but train wrestling more than the other sport, or only wrestle and train wrestling with the majority of their time? All kids have the choice, but small schools have different factors that influence whether a kid plays other sports. Again why is Zac McCray who likes football, plays at Garrett and most likely doesn't at Carroll? If you understand the answer to that question you understand the difference between a big and small school. If a kid has no interest in another sport he's going to specialize no matter the school. If he has any level of interest in another sport he will probably play at a small school, but still specialize at a big school. Our single class system has done NOTHING for Andrew Howe or Stevan Micic. NOTHING, they got where they were because of other factors. Just as Logan Stieber was not affected by being at a small class in Ohio, the same goes for Howe and Micic. infowrestling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 If school size matters, then does the type of population in that school matter? If so, how much... I went through the States free and reduced data and only found one high school who we associate with having a top tier wrestling program that has over a 50% free and reduced rate... Merrillville with 56%... Schools with higher number of free and reduced students seem to perform low in wrestling... Class size did not seem to matter when I looked at this data. Low free and reduced numbers did not guarantee wrestling success but there did seem to be a correlation between high free and reduced percentage and low wrestling success. What is more important... overall number of students or the type of student make-up when it comes to wrestling success? ENoblewrestling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 If school size matters, then does the type of population in that school matter? If so, how much... I went through the States free and reduced data and only found one high school who we associate with having a top tier wrestling program that has over a 50% free and reduced rate... Merrillville with 56%... Schools with higher number of free and reduced students seem to perform low in wrestling... Class size did not seem to matter when I looked at this data. Low free and reduced numbers did not guarantee wrestling success but there did seem to be a correlation between high free and reduced percentage and low wrestling success. What is more important... overall number of students or the type of student make-up when it comes to wrestling success? Feel free to make a proposal based on this then, send it to the IHSAA. There was actually a proposal with a multiplier added based on something like this that was shot down by the IHSAA. I'm fairly certain that almost all states classify based on school population only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Fan Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) But you aren't picking the school. You are picking the individual. You are describing something that has no relevance to this situation, provided that what size school an individual attends does not significantly affect his or her chances of qualifying for state. And thank you for the snarky comment. Yeah your correct you are picking the individual AFTER the school and coaches have sorted through all 2000 kids and determined their varsity team... but an individual at a larger school is more likely to be better than an individual at a small school becuase they have a larger sample size to draw from... the school size matters because a large school could have 5 106 pounders to find the best one from while the small school may only have 1 kid in the whole school who is 106 pounds... so as individuals they are not equal... The school size doesn't mean that if that single 106 pounder from the small school had all the characteristics to be the best 106 pounder in the state he couldn't do it... I'm done arguing this topic... Obviously the IHSAA understands this and that's why they haven't classed individual sports... For heavens sake... Edited March 5, 2015 by Super_Fan ENoblewrestling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Yeah your correct you are picking the individual AFTER the school and coaches have sorted through all 2000 kids and determined their varsity team... but an individual at a larger school is more likely to be better than an individual at a small school becuase they have a larger sample size to draw from... the school size matters because a large school could have 5 106 pounders to find the best one from while the small school may only have 1 kid in the whole school who is 106 pounds... so as individuals they are not equal... The school size doesn't mean that if that single 106 pounder from the small school had all the characteristics to be the best 106 pounder in the state he couldn't do it... I'm done arguing this topic... Obviously the IHSAA understands this and that's why they haven't classed individual sports... For heavens sake... 40+ states have class wrestling...the IHSAA must know something those others don't. If school size matters that means we should class the sport. Just as we did for our fake state duals, the IHSAA did for basketball, football, soccer, etc. School size matters is enough to tell me we need to class the sport, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 All kids have the choice, but small schools have different factors that influence whether a kid plays other sports. Again why is Zac McCray who likes football, plays at Garrett and most likely doesn't at Carroll? If you understand the answer to that question you understand the difference between a big and small school. If a kid has no interest in another sport he's going to specialize no matter the school. If he has any level of interest in another sport he will probably play at a small school, but still specialize at a big school. Our single class system has done NOTHING for Andrew Howe or Stevan Micic. NOTHING, they got where they were because of other factors. Just as Logan Stieber was not affected by being at a small class in Ohio, the same goes for Howe and Micic. Karlhungus Actually Borta told the Head Football coach that he wanted to win a state title in wrestling and had no interest in playing football. He started out as a little guy and no other sport had interest in him until he blew up physically and blossomed into the physical kid that he became to be. Just like the rest of our kids, I told Borta to chase your dream and do whatever you want. Yes he probably could have helped another sport but that is not what he wanted to do, which is fine with me and should be fine with everyone. Joe Never did I say or imply that our system made Howe or Micic. I simply used them as an example to show you that small schools do have kids that want to only focus on wrestling and some have made that choice and obviously has seen success. They don't have as many (by choice) but small schools do have some. You implying that I said our system made Howe is again you assuming things. My entire argument has been that small school kids can get to the state tournament/placer/champ level if they want to put their time into it.. Has absolutely nothing to do with numbers and percentages that you guys post. All the percentages show is that small school kids aren't CHOOSING to train at that level. Which is FINE. You think we need a tournament to accommodate the kids that can't/wont for whatever reason put in the time to be at that level, I personally do not think we need to create a new individual tournament for that reason. I know 40+ states think the same as you, that's awesome for them. Me personally, I do not think so. As far as my schedule, from August to the end of the football season I do nothing with our high school wrestlers (most play a sport in the fall anyway). For those that don't play another sport, my assistants run weights and conditioning for them. My non fall sport kids also attend CIA in the fall. Once football is over I am strictly focused on wrestling until June. Once June hits, we have football (all fall sports program) lifting in the morning 7-830 then more football stuff until 10:30 am. Once I am done with football for the day, my wrestlers (all wrestlers including those that play fall sports) workout/drill/live etc. until 1pm, and this continues until August. It's a grueling schedule but we know it must be this way in order for our kids to get to the level that they want. Any other questions on how we try to maximize our kids potential at a small school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Yeah your correct you are picking the individual AFTER the school and coaches have sorted through all 2000 kids and determined their varsity team... but an individual at a larger school is more likely to be better than an individual at a small school becuase they have a larger sample size to draw from... the school size matters because a large school could have 5 106 pounders to find the best one from while the small school may only have 1 kid in the whole school who is 106 pounds... so as individuals they are not equal... The school size doesn't mean that if that single 106 pounder from the small school had all the characteristics to be the best 106 pounder in the state he couldn't do it... I'm done arguing this topic... Obviously the IHSAA understands this and that's why they haven't classed individual sports... For heavens sake... 16 pages and we agree that school size matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Fan Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 40+ states have class wrestling...the IHSAA must know something those others don't. If school size matters that means we should class the sport. Just as we did for our fake state duals, the IHSAA did for basketball, football, soccer, etc. School size matters is enough to tell me we need to class the sport, plain and simple. those are all TEAM sports... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Yeah your correct you are picking the individual AFTER the school and coaches have sorted through all 2000 kids and determined their varsity team... but an individual at a larger school is more likely to be better than an individual at a small school becuase they have a larger sample size to draw from... the school size matters because a large school could have 5 106 pounders to find the best one from while the small school may only have 1 kid in the whole school who is 106 pounds... so as individuals they are not equal... The school size doesn't mean that if that single 106 pounder from the small school had all the characteristics to be the best 106 pounder in the state he couldn't do it... I'm done arguing this topic... Obviously the IHSAA understands this and that's why they haven't classed individual sports... For heavens sake... Bingo. I am glad we agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Pennsylvania, Illinois, Michigan, Iowa apparently all don't get it either....good thing we smoke them in any sort of national event.....or college success rate query I find it ironic that we are pulling teeth to increase numbers in Freestyle/Greco State to improve our national scene but discuss something similar in HS and everyone loses there mind bwoodjc89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Karlhungus Actually Borta told the Head Football coach that he wanted to win a state title in wrestling and had no interest in playing football. He started out as a little guy and no other sport had interest in him until he blew up physically and blossomed into the physical kid that he became to be. Just like the rest of our kids, I told Borta to chase your dream and do whatever you want. Yes he probably could have helped another sport but that is not what he wanted to do, which is fine with me and should be fine with everyone. I would argue that he would have had a great experience with his classmates playing football and his wrestling would not have suffered. Edited March 5, 2015 by KarlHungus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Feel free to make a proposal based on this then, send it to the IHSAA. There was actually a proposal with a multiplier added based on something like this that was shot down by the IHSAA. I'm fairly certain that almost all states classify based on school population only. Do you agree that the type of school make up is an important factor? Do you disagree? Is this data relevant when discussing a schools ability to have more students to choose from for athletics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 those are all TEAM sports... Does not the IHSAA award a TEAM trophy? They seem to think it is a TEAM sport too. My entire argument has been that small school kids can get to the state tournament/placer/champ level if they want to put their time into it.. Has absolutely nothing to do with numbers and percentages that you guys post. All the percentages show is that small school kids aren't CHOOSING to train at that level. Which is FINE. You think we need a tournament to accommodate the kids that can't/wont for whatever reason put in the time to be at that level, I personally do not think we need to create a new individual tournament for that reason. I know 40+ states think the same as you, that's awesome for them. Me personally, I do not think so. Just curious as to why you think Iowa, Illinois, Pennsylvania and Ohio have it wrong and you have it right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 I would argue that he would have had a great experience with his classmates playing football and his wrestling would not have suffered. Whom did he train with during football season? Borta went to CIA every day that it was available so he trained with the other kids that wanted to train in the fall. And trust me, Borta probably would not have had the success that he had if he would not have made the choice that he made. I coached him for 4 years and witnessed his development over the years so I think I am qualified to give my honest opinion on where he would have been without the extra training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Do you agree that the type of school make up is an important factor? Do you disagree? Is this data relevant when discussing a schools ability to have more students to choose from for athletics? Feel free to draw up some proposal. States class based on school population as of now. If the data is there I'm probably not against it being used. As I keep trying to say, it's been done before, but failed. Good luck. AJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rookies03 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Why should I include the 2000 kids at Carroll who aren't even on the wrestling team or the 350 kids at Churubusco that aren't on the wrestling team? Those people have no bearing what-so-ever on wrestling state qualifiers in the state. None, zilch, nada, NOTHING to do with whether Josh Garman gets to state or if Chase Downing gets to state. Because you are using those 2000 kids to justify your stance on classing wrestling. Those 2000 kids give you more wrestlers. Those 2000 kids give you better coaching. Those 2000 kids give you better off season opportunities. Those 2000 kids give you more community support. Those 2000 kids MATTER in your argument for class wrestling. If they "have no bearing what-so-ever on wrestling state qualifiers in the state. None, zilch, nada, NOTHING" then we have no need to class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Does not the IHSAA award a TEAM trophy? They seem to think it is a TEAM sport too. Just curious as to why you think Iowa, Illinois, Pennsylvania and Ohio have it wrong and you have it right? Not saying they are wrong or right. I'm saying I personally don't think we should make a change to accommodate your argument of kids not having a fair shot because they are unable to put in the time to reach that level. And I'm explaining to you how it is possible for small school kids or kids in general no matter what school they go to can get to that level in our system if they want. I guess we can agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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