TripleB Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 There's a problem in Indiana... chalk it up to whatever you want, but freestyle is dying, it's not new, it's been heading down this slope for awhile. My question is, what if kids had to qualify again for ISWA state, would it help boost local tournaments or hurt state even more? My opinion is that there would be an initial backlash and numbers would dip, but eventually there would be a growth in local tournaments again, once people's feathers got unruffled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 My vision (maybe pipe dream) of what I would like to see happen is: 1. in Freestyle return to the top 3 finish at a local tournament (at any event held in the state) qualifies you for the state series . Do what is possible to ensure at least 1 tournament is available in each area of the state. We should have at minimum 3 events in separate areas of the state and should shoot for 4-5 divided between each of the the sections of the state (we have 5 sections). Also, develop some system to help the local events know the best practices for running their events efficiently so that the day goes smoothly and their is not a super long down time between matches (which also drives people away). I have heard of some creative solutions for this but that's a separate discussion. Events where participation is still low and for the kids who only get 1 or 2 matches organize an extra one or two exhibition matches (depending on time) with kids above or below that weight class to help make the event worth the wrestler/parents time. Logic: This helps attract competition to the local tournaments if you want to be in the state wrestling series. Most kids will at least be able to place top 3 during the season if they continue to attend tournaments. By helping other clubs get information of the best ways to make their local event more wrestler and parent friendly plus get kids enough mat time it will ensure that event grows in the future rather than falls apart. 2. At the freestyle/greco season all the qualifiers are eligible for the Sectional tournament (we have section 5 in IN if we want to base it on that or 4 like semi-state). If possible they could use total results from each kids individual tournaments as separation criteria, but that involves some good organization. With the top placers (maybe top 5-8) from each section qualifying for state. The sectional entry fee also covers your state entry too so their is no additional cost after you qualify. Logic: By starting with a sectional tournament that is closer to the wrestler/parents they may be more inclined to travel to the event compared to state. They would be more inclined to pay the entry fee to wrestle since with a smaller stud pool the chance of getting at least a few decent matches for the price go up. Plus their is some prestige in saying you placed high in your section and qualified for state. Cost wise the entry fee (if more participate in the sections) would be a good boost for the state since you have the same entry fee if they do not advance to state. Also by qualifiers not having to pay for state separately you are enticing those who qualify to attend state since that is one less fee to add to the travel costs. 3. Hold the state tournament with the top sectional qualifiers. Separation criteria based on placement in their section. If someone opts not to attend at least the number of qualifiers is still high enough to make a decent bracket. Then because of the more even brackets a more high profile finals and awards presentation can be arranged at the end of the competition Logic: Much of this comes from the HS state series. Having sectional qualification makes state more prestigious and thus more people aspire to attend the sectional qualify. As mentioned before the already paid qualification fee helps encourage more to think about showing. Having a separation criteria from section results helps to even the brackets and avoid bad draws. It also helps to ensure even if you lose the first match your have a more comparable kids in the second round. By limiting the qualification the event organizers can have more flexibility of where to hold the competition and how to organize it. This which will allow them to hold a more high profile introduction, finals showcase, and award presentation to occur (maybe by age group since each weight by itself may take awhile). Sure the finals may not attract lots additional fans like HS state, but some of the spectators will stay longer to watch it and the prestige of wanting to be on the podium or even in the finals will encourage the younger guys. 4. In terms of Greco ensure at least 2 tournament at each end of the state have a greco option each weekend. Top 3-5 qualifiers from those events qualify directly for state (no section since greco needs to grow more first). At State hold the same type of more high profile introduction, finals, and podium ceremony to help add to the event. Logic: This adds more events with greco to encourage participation. The qualifier also adds a little more prestige for being a state qualifier in Greco which may help increase some of the interest. As the building block for such a system were being initiated a short term plan could also be to investigate what both the other traditional major wrestling states and some of the up and coming wrestling states have been doing to increase and hold onto their competition levels. Sure it a little bit of wishful thinking but if we could guarantee events and competition more wrestlers/parents would be willing to attend the local events. And if we organize the section and state events correctly it could help add more prestige and interest in making it to the next level, causing more participation at all levels to occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I think the initial backlash would be great, but I think the final result of weather or not freestyle/greco wrestling will be back in Olympics will also play a huge part. To the question: I have always wanted to divide the state up into 4 regions. Top 4 from each region advance to state tournament with the possibility of wild cards. I think this will make our state tournament more special and seem more like a state tournament then just a bigger version of a local tournament. a short rant below... Right now many kids see folkstyle as their way to college and an education and a life after that. Freestyle may still have the worlds and other games, but without the Olympics it takes the luster out of wrestling for a lot of youth. The kids wont have the Jordan Burroughs or John Smith to look up to as Olympic champions, just college champions. To help save freestyle I think we need to have more tournaments thoughout the states and smaller tournaments. Tournaments that might not be designed to make a lot of money as a fundraiser. A tournament that starts at 9 and is done by 1 or 2. May sound silly, but we need to get kids to tournaments, and maximizing mat time in a short period of time just might help get the kids and parents back in the door. Ohio uses a form of this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCKAJC Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I thought the reason qualification was eliminated was to boost numbers at FS State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His Father Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 So qualification for state was eliminated to boost numbers. We see how that is working out, not exactly a decision I would keep. It seems that the numbers and amount of talent were greater when qualification was a requirement. I have a novel idea that those in charge should take note that is if they are the same ones who eliminated qualification. I would re-instate qualification and make the season about a week or two longer, time it that state is the week before Fargo. The stipulation that I would add is the top two placers in their respective age and weight class are not only awarded a spot on the nationals dual team for Indiana it is Free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Some points to ponder -There is no qualification for folkstyle state yet the numbers keep going up there. -Qualifications were discontinued due to athletes just having to show up to a local tournament to qualify -Two weeks before Fargo is right around moratorium week. -Parents and kids need more than two weeks to make travel plans to Fargo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 I would re-instate qualification and make the season about a week or two longer, time it that state is the week before Fargo. The stipulation that I would add is the top two placers in their respective age and weight class are not only awarded a spot on the nationals dual team for Indiana it is Free. I agree the Freestlye/Greco season may need to be longer to make it more worth the time/money of those thinking about joining and as to give those involved more events to participate in. However, logistically having it two weeks before Fargo would not work. One reason is because that does not allow for the Schoolboy, Cadet, and Junior Dual teams to be selected and attend their events. The other is that it would not allow qualifiers enough time financially/practice-wise prepared of the Fargo trip. Extending the season a few more weeks work, but state finals must be sooner than two weeks out from Fargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His Father Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Would I be going in the wrong direction to entertain the idea of starting it sooner? How about some Sunday tourneys, during wrestling season. Technical specifics, the high schools do not offer this competition do they? These are just Ideas okay and are not to offend anyone. Have a nondemoninational prayer service and let the games begin:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Would I be going in the wrong direction to entertain the idea of starting it sooner? How about some Sunday tourneys, during wrestling season. Technical specifics, the high schools do not offer this competition do they? These are just Ideas okay and are not to offend anyone. Have a nondemoninational prayer service and let the games begin:) Due to IHSAA rules HS wrestlers can not participate in the USA Wrestling season (Folkstyle, Freestyle, or Greco) until they have been released from HS competition. So starting Freelstyle/Greco too much sooner would not help that group any, being as most (those not going onto semi-state or farther) can't even participate in the USA Folkstyle season until the last few competitions. As well many MS season are still going on at that point, so due to style conflicts and some already getting lots of school competition that group may not participate in much larger number than they currently do. I'd stick with having it start around the same time and extend a few weeks longer. But the scheduling length issues is probably a completely separate item that could be addressed to help with participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edb41 Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 I'm sure many will consider this crazy, but I think one factor in the reduction of participants in FS & Greco but not in folkstyle is the increase availbility of off season training. The number of clubs, RTC etc. give kids plenty of wrestling without going outside their comfort zone or attending tournaments and allows them to focus on the wrestling that is most important to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 I'm sure many will consider this crazy, but I think one factor in the reduction of participants in FS & Greco but not in folkstyle is the increase availbility of off season training. The number of clubs, RTC etc. give kids plenty of wrestling without going outside their comfort zone or attending tournaments and allows them to focus on the wrestling that is most important to them. I agree completely and even stated this in a private email to TripleB. My kids can wrestle better competition in the room and not worry that one kid is a different age group or weight class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAYSKY Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Something I wondered if it would help with Freestyle & greco is why doesnt the middle school have a short season for these styles? At the end of folkstyle season there is a fairly long bit of off time before most kids start playing baseball. A sport that takes half the wrestlers from the sport. If you had a short freestyle & greco season maybe more kids would be interested in doing some more tournaments instead of just playing baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His Father Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Then since the IHSAA wants to broadly specify wrestling then they should institute Freestyle and Greco in all Indiana schools. While they are at it this will include a girls wrestling team, hey if it is good for the rest of the world .... Heck (sorry for the strong language) this could actually be an elective, to include history, rules and regulations, kniesology, the throws, after all wrestlers are quite smart. Would you believe that the football coaches might even get involved if they knew that Greco could actually help there program. How many kids would not like the opportunity to throw somebody who needs it, do it legally,and get a grade for it. The positive aspects are way too numerous to list here. If you agree then lets find a way for the kids coming along to get the opportunity to compete with the world. I f you disagree then please by all means show your true colors and go play basketball:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgmotorfan Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Whats is it all for, not sure what your goals are ? Some seem to want to build big clubs and generate big money, some seem to be livin in a" we can unite as one big wrestling community," fantasy world. To many division's in wrestling, right down to age and weight. free style folkstyle greco ihsaa school ran clubs money clubs big money clubs uswa nuway iswa oswa kids that treat wrestling as a hobby kids that are into wrestlinganywhere at anytime no matter what the cost. Amazes me how peeps get caught up in the build bigger programs and generate big money. grow better kids not bigger and $richer$ wrestling programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestlingfan182 Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 YES freestyle state was very tough and exciting five or so years ago somewhere down the line IN must be loosing interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted April 20, 2013 Author Share Posted April 20, 2013 Whats is it all for, not sure what your goals are ? Some seem to want to build big clubs and generate big money, some seem to be livin in a" we can unite as one big wrestling community," fantasy world. To many division's in wrestling, right down to age and weight. free style folkstyle greco ihsaa school ran clubs money clubs big money clubs uswa nuway iswa oswa kids that treat wrestling as a hobby kids that are into wrestlinganywhere at anytime no matter what the cost. Amazes me how peeps get caught up in the build bigger programs and generate big money. grow better kids not bigger and $richer$ wrestling programs. The big is eating the small. Too many "national" tournaments...USAW, Flo, NHSCA, NUWAY making loot and price gouging the crap out of this why the grassroots clubs suffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgmotorfan Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 removing team state was huge from a coaching standpoint, no reason to push part time wrestlers for the sake of the team. Most coaches would rather ride the coat tails of already made wrestlers ,than try to push a whole team to get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Before you dive into this you need to understand why the ISWA eliminated qualifications for freestyle state. 1. Less and less tournaments due to a shortened season. Due to this people had to travel further and with the freestyle season falling right around spring break time this also eliminated a week or two for a family to get their son(s) qualified 2. Many tournaments were looking to block weights to get kids more matches. This then did not pair well with the qualifications due to no real set weight classes. Then of course you had the kids that would have qualified if there were the standard weights, but did not due to the blocked weight. I do not believe reinstating the qualifications would help right now. I think it would only hurt kids more. One of the biggest reasons tournaments are suffering is due to the RTCs and even the academies that are in many places. For instance Hayden Lee can get over an hour of work with Garrett Pepple and Ben Cauffman(amongst others) at a club practice when at a tournament they would be separate age divisions AND most likely a weight class apart. For the money and time it is much more beneficial to go to the club twice a week rather than drive two hours for a tournament. There is no doubt freestyle and greco are dying a slow death in Indiana whether it be due to coaches not pushing it, more folkstyle opportunities or kids not liking losing because they get gator rolled due to poor technique. In all honesty I do not believe this is a good thing, but only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 A question I would ask is what states are really getting it done in regards to USA Wrestling and G & FS tournaments? Is Illinois nailing it? If so, what are they doing that we aren't or, maybe, can't do? Are there any states with a demographic similar to ours (population, # of schools that offer H.S. wrestling - approx 300 - etc.) that is really getting it done in regards to USA Wrestling or at the very least, standing pat and not losing numbers? If everyone is suffering, then we have to create the wheel to fix the problem. If some state is getting it done, then we should begin to pattern ourselves after them, ie, don't re-create the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 A great state to look at is Wisconsin as they are very comparable to us. They are usually pretty strong in the international styles. They have a very strong state organization much like ours, but beyond that I do not know what they do differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Are we talking about numbers or success at fargo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Are we talking about numbers or success at fargo? Numbers of participants in the local and state tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 From what I see they dont have a Folkstyle season for HS aged wrestlers they ended at birth year 1999-98 and you cannot be a high school student. You eliminate folkstyle wrestling kids have to take what they can get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 If our ferestyle season and tournaments are fading, but fading due to wrestlers wrestling in other places and/or against better competition (training sites) may I ask what is the real concern? If the wrestlers are training and wrestling, just not doing it at local tournaments, arent the kids still wrestling? Do we want to see bigger tournaments or possibly better wrestlers (if you follow the training site argument, which I do)? We need to find a way to promote both.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgmotorfan Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Exactly AJ it's about the kids not how much money you can generate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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