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Im glad penn's jv team was there. They went to compete. As you can see they were not embarrassed. It made for better competition. Even though it was jv. Kids need mat time. I'd rather see a whole team wrestle, then five or six guys from a team.  Penn is a big school with a great feeder system. It will be tough to compete with them as a team, but thank goodness wrestling is an individual sport. 1 vs 1 at anytime at any weight class.

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I agree. I think its a good thing for our sport. You're only as good as the ones you compete with. I do have to question Clay leaving rather than wrestle Penn in the final round. If you are in a tournament that has one of your conference opponents also entered you should be prepared for a scenario in which you may have to wrestle them. Chesterton didn't have any issues wrestling their conference opponent in the final round even though they will also wrestle in a dual soon. Competition can only make you better in the long run. Looks like there were some nice competitive duals at Merrillville.

 

This case is different though , even though Clay will see Penn again in the conference , it will be a different team than they would of saw Saturday . Penn will wrestle Clay with it's true Varsity in a conference dual . The real question here is , if Clay would of wrestled Penn's Jv and lost , what would that of done to the confidence of Clay's wrestlers when they do meet Penn's Varsity ?

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If you look at it from a preparation standpoint for a future conference dual matchup between two schools, would not having your JV team wrestle the other team's varsity prior to that meeting be beneficial to your team?  You get an idea of what it is like to wrestle their varsity, yet wrestling your varsitiy lineup is still an unknown for the opponent. 

 

From a logic perspective, that has some value.

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If you look at it from a preparation standpoint for a future conference dual matchup between two schools, would not having your JV team wrestle the other team's varsity prior to that meeting be beneficial to your team?  You get an idea of what it is like to wrestle their varsity, yet wrestling your varsitiy lineup is still an unknown for the opponent. 

 

From a logic perspective, that has some value.

 

This was probably Coach Hartman's thinking, rather than boycotting because a JV team wasn't worth his time or whatever people are trying to make of it. Wrestling Penn's JV would (legally) give Penn video of all of Clay's wrestlers, which Coach Hartman probably would not want.

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So here is a question. Since this was Penn's "JV team", none of the wins or losses should count on any of these Penn kids varsity records, assuming they also wrestle other true "varsity" matches, of which many of Penn's kids do. I surely wouldn't think you could send two squads out, wrestling against other schools varsity squads, and count them all as varsity wins, right? Now how about the teams this "JV" team wrestles - do they count these matches as wins and losses against their varsity records? Being that they were wrestling a JV squad, how could you count them as varsity wins or losses? This could really get messy in my opinion.

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So here is a question. Since this was Penn's "JV team", none of the wins or losses should count on any of these Penn kids varsity records, assuming they also wrestle other true "varsity" matches, of which many of Penn's kids do. I surely wouldn't think you could send two squads out, wrestling against other schools varsity squads, and count them all as varsity wins, right? Now how about the teams this "JV" team wrestles - do they count these matches as wins and losses against their varsity records? Being that they were wrestling a JV squad, how could you count them as varsity wins or losses? This could really get messy in my opinion.

 

Reference concerns brought up in my post that may cause issues with this system of coaches try to manipulate it to much.

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I don't want to stir up trouble but I can't see how this Penn JV thing is legal or fair really.....This program will be unstoppable in 2 to 3 years.  I think you are seeing a high school wrestling empire being built.

First off, before I get hammered for what I'm about to write, understand that I envy the program Coach Harper has built over at Penn.  Frankly, the vast majority of the over 300 Indiana high schools that wrestle envy this program.  Now for the controversial part, they have been runnning a jv squad around Indiana for the last number of years wrestling varsity events and have yet to ascend to dominance.  Very, very good but not a program that has really had a chance to go all the way.  Therefore, I don't see an "empire" being built.  Maybe it takes a decade of basically having two varsity teams before dominance is achieved.  Somebody a whole lot smarter than me can answer that issue.  Understand that I have no problem with the fact that Penn has two teams and I believe any program that can should do it.  I just don't see that as being the primary reason for dominance in the sport of wrestling.

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as in any sport...competition makes everyone better.

 

First off, before I get hammered for what I'm about to write, understand that I envy the program Coach Harper has built over at Penn.  Frankly, the vast majority of the over 300 Indiana high schools that wrestle envy this program.  Now for the controversial part, they have been runnning a jv squad around Indiana for the last number of years wrestling varsity events and have yet to ascend to dominance.  Very, very good but not a program that has really had a chance to go all the way.  Therefore, I don't see an "empire" being built.  Maybe it takes a decade of basically having two varsity teams before dominance is achieved.   Somebody a whole lot smarter than me can answer that issue.  Understand that I have no problem with the fact that Penn has two teams and I believe any program that can should do it.  I just don't see that as being the primary reason for dominance in the sport of wrestling.

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mat time is what every wrestler needs.

if the jv wrestlers are giving the varsity guys a good match everyone wins.

it's all about mat time.

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So here is a question. Since this was Penn's "JV team", none of the wins or losses should count on any of these Penn kids varsity records, assuming they also wrestle other true "varsity" matches, of which many of Penn's kids do. I surely wouldn't think you could send two squads out, wrestling against other schools varsity squads, and count them all as varsity wins, right? Now how about the teams this "JV" team wrestles - do they count these matches as wins and losses against their varsity records? Being that they were wrestling a JV squad, how could you count them as varsity wins or losses? This could really get messy in my opinion.

 

I don't know if it was true, but the word at the tournament was that Penn split there varsity up and had a mix of varsity & B team kids at both.   As for counting as wins,  this was a classified as a varsity tournament, so there opponents should count these as wins and losses.    I understand SB Clay's coaches decision not to wrestle the match,  but it's still crap and a poor example of sportsmanship to just walk out of the tournament.    I can't exactly say what his thinking was, but it does give the appearance that he was afraid to wrestle Penn's B team/JV team.

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everyone there where jv wrestlers.

1 or 2 that lost there varsity spot due to a better guy moving up or down in weight but all current jv.

 

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First off, before I get hammered for what I'm about to write, understand that I envy the program Coach Harper has built over at Penn.  Frankly, the vast majority of the over 300 Indiana high schools that wrestle envy this program.  Now for the controversial part, they have been runnning a jv squad around Indiana for the last number of years wrestling varsity events and have yet to ascend to dominance.  Very, very good but not a program that has really had a chance to go all the way.  Therefore, I don't see an "empire" being built.  Maybe it takes a decade of basically having two varsity teams before dominance is achieved.   Somebody a whole lot smarter than me can answer that issue.  Understand that I have no problem with the fact that Penn has two teams and I believe any program that can should do it.  I just don't see that as being the primary reason for dominance in the sport of wrestling.

 

It all starts at the elementary level . When Harper started at Penn he  started getting elementary kids interested to wrestling . Those kids are now in high school , and you can start to see the benefits . In the state finals(Team) 2 years ago the Penn vs Perry meridian match came down to the last match . I would say that is pretty close to winning a state title . Penn is in my opinion the 2nd or 3rd best team in the state this year .  I don't think anyone touches them next year . It has nothing to do with the amount of varsity teams a program has , but more to do with a coach getting young kids involved and developing them . If you look at all the individual state champions this year , i'll bet all of them started wrestling in elementery school or before .

 

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everyone there where jv wrestlers.

1 or 2 that lost there varsity spot due to a better guy moving up or down in weight but all current jv.

 

 

The only ex varsity wrestler that I know of was Tommy Varner who was beaten in a challenge match by Josh Curcio @ 132 . Penn's entire varsity team was in Elkhart .

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cameron beam who is a freshman lost the varsity spot to zach davis when zach he moved up from 113 to 120.

beam moved to 126 jv spot.

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It all starts at the elementary level . When Harper started at Penn he  started getting elementary kids interested to wrestling . Those kids are now in high school , and you can start to see the benefits . In the state finals(Team) 2 years ago the Penn vs Perry meridian match came down to the last match . I would say that is pretty close to winning a state title . Penn is in my opinion the 2nd or 3rd best team in the state this year .  I don't think anyone touches them next year . It has nothing to do with the amount of varsity teams a program has , but more to do with a coach getting young kids involved and developing them . If you look at all the individual state champions this year , i'll bet all of them started wrestling in elementery school or before .

 

 

I could not agree more with this statement and would like to add that it also helps when all coaches within the program are on the same page and teaching the same technique. That way the kids will be practicing high percentage moves at every level of competition. The importance of having your high school head coach actively involved in the middle school and club programs can not be overstated.

 

 

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cameron beam who is a freshman lost the varsity spot to zach davis when zach he moved up from 113 to 120.

beam moved to 126 jv spot.

 

word on the street (wrestling rooms) is that davis is staying at 120 now? having trouble making 113?

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word on the street (wrestling rooms) is that davis is staying at 120 now? having trouble making 113?

Tired of cutting.

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This was probably Coach Hartman's thinking, rather than boycotting because a JV team wasn't worth his time or whatever people are trying to make of it. Wrestling Penn's JV would (legally) give Penn video of all of Clay's wrestlers, which Coach Hartman probably would not want.

 

Penn will get to see Clay first hand at the Al Smith before the two teams meet at the NIC Superdual , so who needs video .

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It was determined almost 2 months ago that Clay would not wrestle Penn's JV in this varsity tournament. Both Clay and Penn coaches along with the Merriville staff knew coming in that this matchup was not going to happen. 

 

My thinking coming in was that there was no advantage for my team to wrestle a conference teams JV.  We will be meeting within the next month to determine conference placement and sectional seeding.  Example: if the match is close with the JV how can I motivate my kids to compete against their varsity.  Example: we are going to the seeding meeting and I have a kid up for seeding and Penn says well my JV kid beat him.  Example: Penn has now wrestled our varsity and knows the style of certain wrestlers and we know nothing about their varsity.

 

Coach Harper is a great coach and has done a fantastic job at Penn.  He is building an "Empire".  I am a Penn grad and proud of his success. 

 

Simply put I thought it was not in our programs best interest to wrestle a conference teams JV against my varsity.

 

I am sorry if you "wrestling scholar" think I was being unsportsmanlike I thought I had my teams best interest in mind.  We could possibly wrestle Penn 7 more times before the end of the season.

 

Al Hartman

Clay Wrestling Coach

 

 

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Well put Al! Those of us who know you, know you have your boys/programs best interest at heart.  Many of these post at times take on a soap opera type drama, people who think they are "In the Know" trying to stir things up! When they don't have a clue about what is really going on, Although I have to admit It makes for some pretty hilarious reading late at night!  Like watching a train-wreck, just can't stop!  ;D

 

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