Proposal for an IHSWCA Classed Team State

[Darrick Snyder]

I know the IHSWCA is bouncing around different ideas regarding a version of a Classed Team State or Hall of Fame Classic.  I am working with the IHSWCA and I wanted to get some opinions on the following proposal. 

 

The basic format is 2 classes - 6 teams per class. Top team from each semi-state and 2 wildcards per class.  Wildcards will be awarded to the best two teams after the first four spots are taken - regardless of semi-state.  The idea is to make this a state event that determines the top teams in the state.  This is not the all inclusive or 3 class team state I believe most coaches want, but I also truly believe this takes us in the right direction.  Start smaller so we can get this going next year if coaches want it, and grow from there.

 

Please provide some feedback.  If it stinks, tell me why.

 

Coaches: Would you want your team to attend?

Wrestlers: Would you want to wrestle in this event?

Fans: Would you want to watch this event?

 

Here is the proposal....

 

Proposal for IHSWCA Classed Team State

 

Note: These are not all my ideas, but many of them are.  I have stolen ideas from every coach, fan, poster on indianamat.com, and coach in Indiana and other states that I could.  It is suggested that no direction is taken by the IHSWCA until coaches throughout the state are asked if they support an invitation based IHSWCA Classed Team State Tournament.  When and if coaches choose an invite based IHSWCA Classed Team State, it is suggested that they are permitted to choose a date from a couple possible dates.  Furthermore, it is believed they should be given two options to choose from regarding the format of the IHSWCA Classed Team State.  The IHSWCA Board would determine the best two dates and the two top Classed Team State Proposals to put up for vote to the coaches throughout the state.   

 

Name of Event: Hall of Fame Classic or IHSWCA Classed Team State

 

Purpose: To attempt to give an emphasis on Team Wrestling and offer a version of the Team State the IHSAA eliminated.  This tournament would be used to declare the IHSWCA Team State Champions, Team Runners-up, etc.  There is a belief that recognizing wrestling as at least partially a team sport increases interest and participation in our sport.  Ohio is officially going to a Team State Tournament to determine their Wrestling State Champions.  A major factor in this decision was a belief that a Team State would grow the sport of wrestling in Ohio.  The idea is to make this event more than just another tough dual meet tournament.  It would be a celebration of Team Wrestling showcasing the top teams in Indiana.  The IHSWCA should work to promote this event.  For example, have live video of the matches, live scoring, bring in some people to broadcast it, etc.  This will make it easier to promote the event even if you can't make it.  The IHSWCA needs to separate this from just another super dual.

 

Format: Start small and grow?  2 Classes ? 6 Teams per Class.  All attempts would be made to invite the top teams in the State of Indiana.  The top team from each semi-state would be invited.  If the top team declines in a particular semi-state, the second rated team in that semi-state would be invited and so on.  The other two spots will rewarded as wild cards.  The best overall two teams in the state in each of the two classes that have yet been invited, regardless of the semi-state they participate in, would be invited.  The idea is to make this a state event where the best teams have an opportunity to go and determine the best teams in Indiana.  All teams participating would wrestle in 3 duals meets. 

 

Selection and Criteria Committee: Criteria for teams invited to this event would be determined by an IHSWCA Selection and Criteria Committee, which would also be given the task of determining what teams would be invited each year.  The criteria would be made public on indianamat.com before any team was selected and invited.  The goal would be to invite the best teams in the state while making sure the entire state is represented at this event.  The Selection Committee or another formed committee would also be in charge of seeding this tournament.  Seeds would not be made until the week before the tournament.  The idea would be to use all the information available before determining the seeds. 

 

Where: A host site where all 12 teams could participate is preferred.  If this is not possible, a team participating would host preferably an Indianapolis area school since it will be centrally located.  If one venue is unable to hold this event, two sites could be used. 

 

Schedule for Application Process:

Teams contacted and invited by end of March, 2012.  Teams will have two weeks to accept invitation.  Acceptance letter must be signed by head coach, athletic director, and principal. 

 

Number of Mats: 6 total mats ? 6 at one site or 3 at 2 sites. 

 

Awards: Trophy to Team State Champion and Runner-up in each class.  Individual award presented to every wrestler on all teams.  Plaque awarded to outstanding wrestler in each class as determined by a coaches? vote.  28 shirts (2 per weight class) to each winning team.  Shirts would state IHSCWCA Team State Champions.   

 

Financial Issues: Host school would keep concession money for their efforts.  Admission Fee - $6.  Costs would include trophies and officials, etc.  Once and if IHSWCA costs are met, any leftover profits would go to the host school.  The idea is we need to make this an event coaches and athletic directors are financially rewarded for hosting.  Team entry fee - $150.       

 

Possible Dates Next Year:  Dec. 15, Dec. 22, Over Christmas Break, or Jan. 5.  No date will be perfect.  Teams will have the option to not attend if the chosen date does not fit with their schedule. 

 

The Future: If coaches desire, work to expand this event to 3 Classes, 8 teams per class and eventually an all-inclusive IHSWCA Classed Team State.

 

Further Notes: Teams obviously do not have to participate.  They will be given the opportunity to participate in an event that determines the IHSWCA top teams.  The main difference between this proposal and the Hall of Fame Classic is that this event will attempt to invite the best teams each year and determine the IHSWCA Team State Champions in two classes.  Again, coaches would need to be asked if this is the type of event they desire before this is the direction the IHSWCA takes.  Adjustments can and should be made to this or any proposal based off of what a majority of coaches want.   

 

Thanks!

Snyder

 

 

 

 

[Jake Riesen]

Coach Snyder,

 

I think you can see as much as anyone the wrestling community is not going to agree on how to run the tournament.  That being said any proposal that keeps team state alive is a step in the right direction.  Me personally I do not love the proposal but am willing to get behind it, because it is a step in the right direction.  I think the wrestling community needs to get behind one weekend and make it a dead weekend for the state tournament.  The best way to do that is take more teams out of a weekend and then the tournaments will naturally move to different weekends.  It will be a scramble for a year to schedule, but then it will be done.

 

If it were up to me I would start with 3 classes and 8 teams at a big 5a high school in the Indy area.  Maybe Carmel?  Use three gyms one per class.  Wrestle 2 pools of 4 teams and make it so the winners of the pools wrestle each other in the championship.  You could even wrestle for 1st through 8th place.  The finals doesn't need to be special just wrestle it with the other placement matches.  Otherwise you could free up 2 gyms early for other events and wrestle all 3 championship in the main gym.  Lets not half ass it and lets make this the event.  Take the preseason genius rankings to start until the weekend becomes a dead weekend and then you can use a genius ranking from a certain date closer to the actually state series.  IF you do not like my idea I get it, but thanks for listening.

[Darrick Snyder]

ttipton,

 

I too would prefer a 3 Class, 8 Team per Class IHSWCA Team State.  I would support that proposal.  I guess I am trying to offer a smaller version of that to start with so it is more manageable.  This being state, if we could find the facility and coaches want it I would support a larger version and be very excited about it. 

 

Thanks for the feeback! Darrick

[tskin]

Coach I still say my 3 class 6 team per class model I sent yea still keeps it small but gives 3 classes.  I know the two teams per class with a first round bye might be a sticking point but to go ahead and start with three classes might outweigh that negatives.

[charger.dad]

The problem with this is that you are taking teams from the end of this season in 2012 that won their semi-state, and putting them in a tournament next season even though they may have lost most of their best wrestlers due to to graduation or other circumstances. Those teams might not be good teams early next winter. So you really aren't having a tournament with the best teams now. It's a tournament of the best teams from last year and two wildcard teams from the current year. To me that doesn't really determine anything. Did I miss something in your proposal?

[Jake Riesen]

I like small to start but I think as long as it is not multiple days the event it is not much harder to run. 24 teams would be 8 or 9 % of the state that is an event.  People would travle to see there local teams compete for that  state title.  Also 3 gyms worth of action for one low price would make me want to come attend.  

 

I say we do it from the preseason genius rankings to start.  After we hold the tourney for a few years it will become a dead weekend for wrestling, and then you could do it from more current rankings, or you could try and do an all in tournament.  To start it will not be perfect, but the preseason genius rankings should hold up to get at least the top 4 teams from each class.

[Darrick Snyder]

charger.dad,

 

We would work to invite the best team from each semi-state so that the enitre state is represented.  Then 2 spots would be awarded to 2 other teams regardless of the semi-state they are from.  Teams would have to be invited and committed before the start of the season for organizational and scheduling purposes.  This is absolutely an issue.  All attempts would be made to invite the projected best teams.  Criteria would be established to project the best teams - returning starters, etc.  I think we would need to look closely at what has been used successfully in other states.  I am absolutely open to any and all suggestions, but I do not see a way we could wait until a couple weeks before the tournament to determine the teams.  Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks!

Snyder 

[tskin]

Correct me if I am wrong which I might be but I don't think anyone has a meet on the Dec 22nd of next year.  Also when he said top teams in the semi-state I am pretty sure he is referring to the present year.  He isn't talking about the top scoring teams at the individual semi-state because they might not be the top dual meet teams.  So that is where the selection committee comes in.

[Darrick Snyder]

Tskin,

 

Are you thinking 3 different locations or do you have an idea for a venue where we could hold all teams?  We would need to make sure we had enough space and mats available.  I love the idea of a 3 class team state at the same location!   I know a huge issue is finding a venue able and willing to hold such a large tournament.    Thanks Snyder

[Darrick Snyder]

tskin,

 

You are correct!  I am referring to the best team in the semi-state that present year.

 

Great question on the date:

 

Help us out everyone!  What are the issues with Dec. 22nd for a classed team state?  Keep the feedback coming! 

 

Thanks!

Snyder

[charger.dad]

ok i get it now....the PROJECTED top team for next year from each semi-state, picked at the end of the season, and then 2 other wild cards.....that will be fine with the exception of all the other teams that think they should have been in that top 6 teams....and then when the actual semi-state does come around that next february, we'll see just how good the picks were......i think it's as good of an idea as is possible but there will be alot of b!tching going on from some of the teams that didn't get picked.....the only other idea would be just to pick the projected top 6 or 8 teams for the following year, regarless of what seme-state they are in.....i mean really that's probably more fair because chances are there will be a semi-state that has teams that just aren't at that level that get to go just because of the weak semi-state they are in.....look at the top ranked teams now.....are the top 4-6 spots made up of one team from each semi-state?....

[Smooth34]

So two of the top 6 teams will receive a bye?

 

 

Also, I would be interested to see the actual criteria.  Otherwise, it's going to be a popularity contest.  It's easy to determine which team will have the most state qualifiers, state placers, etc. coming back the next year.  However, it's the new kids stepping into the lineup that will be difficult to gauge.  People will assume those new kids stepping into the lineup for Mishawaka, Bellmont, EMD, PM, etc. will be better than other schools "replacements".

 

For example, if it came down to the last wildcard spot and Team X (regular at Team State) and Team Y (very little wrestling history) each have the same number of starters returning with a very similar resume, would Team X be chosen based on their history?  Probably.

[Darrick Snyder]

Smooth34,

 

There a lot of different directions we could take with this.  Yes, top two teams could get a bye, but that would mean only 2 matches.  That's a possibility or a two pool format for each class?  Or everyone wrestles in one pool per class tournament?  We need to decide on a type of format we want to follow and then iron out the details.  Should we go to 8 teams per class?

 

I absolutely agree that criteria for selection MUST be made publc before any team is selected.  I would recommend the selction committee communicate with the wrestling community on this website for critieria to use as well as looking at what other states have done.  Certainly, I think there should be some consideration for an elite freshmen that will be coming in and greatly improving a team's lineup...This is a huge issue we will have to work on together if this is the decision a majority of coaches want to take. 

 

Thanks!

Snyder

[wrestlinggods]

I have been thinking about a way's to get the best team's together and I like where this proposal is heading.  Here are my thought's after reading this.

 

 

 

Looking at the IHSWCA team ranking's and looking at the competitive depth in the 3A class I would keep that class alone and call it your big school.  I would combine the 2A &1A classes and call it your small school division. 

 

I feel you should take 8 in a class.  If you take one Team from each Semistate, you will have 4 wild-card bid's.  I feel you will need 4 wild-card bid's especially for the big school division.  Looking at New Castle SS for example, you have (Perry, Ron., Cath, L.N.) that all have been consistently at the IHSAA Team State Finals for pretty much the Past Decade, On top of Many other Team's that are right there ex. (Warren, H.S.E, New Castle, Carmel). I think you will need 4 wildcard's and you still might not get all of the best team's but having 4 give's you a better shot of getting the best 8 team's.

 

Seed it!!! If you get the Best 8 team's Seeding isn't going to be that tough to do.  We have great teams and after seeding the top 4 Team's it will be a crap shoot on 5-8 cause that's they way it goes.  Every educated Coach, Wrestler and Fan should know it come's down to match-ups.  Upset's can Happen. 

 

If you get this thing rolling, I would love to volunteer to be on the seeding and selection committee.  I am not coaching anymore and still feel I have a good gauge of who would be the best team's that need to be there.  Let me know!!!!!!

 

Coach Weimer

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Blane Culp]

I only have a few questions about it.  Is there any way we could move it later than the Dec dates?  I don't think all teams have meshed and came together yet.  Also is there any better way to find the teams participating?  Using the rankings on here would not be the best route but I am not sure of how else to do it other than what system we are getting rid of.  I know  from 2004-2006 Columbia City was beat in the Team State semi finals, and never were we a top 10 team.  I think the first year we went we were 13th, and hovered right around there for the next 2-3 years, even though we continued to advance to the semi finals at Team State.

 

I think trying to get the tourney as late into the season as possible would be the best thing to do.  I know there are some conference tourneys  that run 2 weeks before sectional. If there was a way to get all of them to move to the week before sectional, then we could have this Team State 2 weeks before sectional.  But we have to find a better way of deciding participants than just using the rankings.

[Y2CJ41]

I would think the later in the season you have it, the more likely teams would be to bypass it due to wanting to prepare for the real state series.

[Blane Culp]

What better way to prepare for the real state series than to prepare to win a IHSWCA Team Title, then wrestle conference, then sectional.  Why spread the season out and prepare for team state, then relax then prepare for state series?  Build everything up to the seasons end when you want to be hitting your stride.

[maligned]

Teams would have to be invited and committed before the start of the season for organizational and scheduling purposes.  This is absolutely an issue. 

 

Thanks!

Snyder 

 

Why?  I thought the participating teams in a Hall of Fame or IHSWCA team tournament got a weigh-in exemption?  If the dates being considered are over the early holiday period when no one has events scheduled, why would participating teams have to be announced ahead of time without the benefit of knowing which kids are truly back?

[Darrick Snyder]

Awesome feedback everyone!  Please keep it coming!

 

Y2, I agree a later date could be too close to the sectional for some coaches and would interfere with with conference tournaments.

 

Blane,

 

Lots of great points.  I think moving conference dates by next year is unrealistic as venues have been reserved and contracts signed.  I also agree we have to bust tail to come up with proper criteria for invited teams.  Those criteria must be made public.  I guess I feel we cross that bridge once we decide the direction coaches want to go.  We have to make sure this is the direction a majority of coaches want first.

 

Coach Weimer,

 

Great idea and thank you for being willing to get involved!  Kind of what I told Blane.  Lets first make sure this is the direction a majority of coaches want to take and then we can work on details such as what you mentioned.

 

maligned,

The IHSAA said they would give us a weigh-in exemption, but we have to see if they will follow through with that promise.  I agree the best course of action would be to wait to invite teams, but I am not sure how realistic that is.  Honestly, my athletic department is awesome and very flexible and supportive.  They would probably adjust onthe fly for us.  I think that is not common at many schools for wrestling, though.  I can't imagine many atheltic departments would allow a wrestling team to add a tournament to thier schedule just a few weeks prior.  Transportation and budget constraints would probaby eliminate a lot of teams if we waited.  Atheltic Departments want things scheduled ahead of time...so they can work it in the budget and schedule the transportation.  Let me know your thoughts.

 

THANK YOU TO EVERYONE PROVIDING FEEDBACK!

 

Snyder

[Smooth34]

 

I absolutely agree that criteria for selection MUST be made publc before any team is selected.  I would recommend the selction committee communicate with the wrestling community on this website for critieria to use as well as looking at what other states have done. 

 

 

I'm plagarizing this idea a little bit from an article I read about the BCS and college football.

 

"When you let human beings decide which teams are the best, you allow our emotions and opinions to become involved in the process. Making matters worse, we're all pretty stubborn when it comes to how we think and feel about a certain subject."

 

"What if there was a way to present a team's case without a person knowing who that team was? If  the names of the schools were removed, bias is also removed. All a committee can see is "Team X" not EMD, not Mishawaka, not Bellmont, none of that. Just the letter "X or Y" and some information.

 

 

 

 

[timbo]

What if we used a point system based on the previous year?  e.g.:

 

  returning state placer---10 points

  returning state qualifier--8 points

  returning semi-state qualifier--6 points

  returning regional qualifier--4 points

  returning varsity wrestler with 20 or more matches--2 points

  returning varsity wrestler with 10-19 matches--1 point

 

    We could also factor in this site and a coaches poll.  I would suggest 8 teams---two divisions to start ( 16 teams total).  I would hold this event The first week of january to allow teams to get wrestlers to their respective weights as well as to allow wrestlers to get into their prime condition.

 

[AJ]

Is a classed team series going to be the only option?  I know I am in the huge minority here as I am not a proponent of class sports, but it just seems like it has been accepted that the series will be classed.

 

This is not an attack on your proposal as I think it is sound, but just a question on why the only iron clad element so far on all ideas is for it to be classed.  Is this because most coaches want this or the more vocal coaches want this?  So far, all other ideas have been questioned and debated, some even attacked, but a class series seems to be a sacred element.

[KarlHungus]

Is a classed team series going to be the only option?  I know I am in the huge minority here as I am not a proponent of class sports, but it just seems like it has been accepted that the series will be classed.

 

This is not an attack on your proposal as I think it is sound, but just a question on why the only iron clad element so far on all ideas is for it to be classed.  Is this because most coaches want this or the more vocal coaches want this?  So far, all other ideas have been questioned and debated, some even attacked, but a class series seems to be a sacred element.

 

You stated you were in a huge minority.  Im not sure there is such a thing but I know what you mean.  80% in a previous survey have been in favor of class.  100% in this thread.  I'm not sure how much more evidence you need.  Have you asked Coach Abbott to add your teams vote to the total

[AJ]

You stated you were in a huge minority.  Im not sure there is such a thing but I know what you mean.  80% in a previous survey have been in favor of class.  100% in this thread.  I'm not sure how much more evidence you need.  Have you asked Coach Abbott to add your teams vote to the total

 

 

I did not mean huge minority as a literal mathematical number, but rather as an empasis tool.  To magnify my position as being opposed to the vocal majority.

 

80% would seem more powerful to me if I knew the number of coaches that returned the survey.  And I am not sure how many coaches that are opposed to class wrestling would actually pot it on this thread.  Especially considering they will be the ones who will get saddled with the blame if a team series does not go through.

 

I will speak with Coach Abbott today at practice.  From our previous talks, I believe he will say that he would never deny his wrestlers the opportunity to wrestle, therefore he would allow them to wrestle even if he disagreed with it being classed.

[Darrick Snyder]

AJ,

 

Thanks for jumping in the conversation!  I went with a proposal that involves a classed team state for several reasons - certainly I personally believe it is best for wrestling.  Also, I spoke about a classed team state at the fall clinic last year.  I asked if any coach present was against it.  Not one coach spoke out against it.  Also, you can look at past survey results that Karl/Chad mentioned.  All this being stated, I again hold that the coaches must be formally asked if they want a invite based classed team state.  I believe the answer is yes based off of the above information, but that is just my opinion.

 

Snyder