IHSWCA New Proposal for a new Team State

[Y2CJ41]

I've not been a supporter of a class system for team state in the past. But now, with all these proposed potential options and the fact that team state will be euthanized after this year I've changed my mind. It does seem to me that classing a team state tournament would grow the sport at smaller schools that need it. Like ours.

 

Munster by no means is a small school.

[cewrestlingfan]

After reading through most of the heated discussion from this thread, I'm wondering if we will ever agree on the best way to handle the sad fact that team state is gone.  I believe and hope that the IHSWCA will still be trying to find a way that we can have a true classed team event.  In the mean time, having a Hall of Fame Clasic is a pretty good idea if there is a way to not put stress on coaches and teams scheduling to be able to participate in the event.  I have 1 question:  Is it possible that the teams that are invited to the event be given a special exemption for that year by the IHSAA to be able to participate in the event without it counting against the maximum 18 points allowed?  This would make it much easier for coaches to agree to participate because then they would not have to drop another event that they participate in every year.  This might make scheduling to attend the event a little easier.  I may be way off base, but it some food for thought.

[Short Jay]

CEWRESTLINGFAN,

It is my understanding that teams would have an exemption like basketball teams have for the Hall of Fame games.

[GrecoCoach]

I really feel like the only way to feasibly pull it all off is to have all teams locked into wrestling on a couple of duals evenings and one particular Saturday. 

Then, teams that don't advance would also automatically fall into consolation duals and/or a consolation tournament according to pre-planned locations and opponent pools.

 

Due to all the reasons mentioned, teams pulling in and out of events willy-nilly just won't work.

 

I came up with a few ideas and even submitted an official proposal to the IHSWCA that they allowed me to present and considered.  The biggest issue with your idea is coordinating all of the venues and officials across the state.  Your plan would require over 150 officials for multiple days.  The IHSAA, with all their power and influence, struggles to find 128 officials for one day of Sectionals.  It just isn't feasible.

 

ADs do not want to adjust schedules mid-season.  I tried to change one JV tournament more than a month before practices started and my AD thought I was crazy.  He made the change, but was not happy about it.  ADs are required to do what the IHSAA tells them to do, but not what a coaches association requests.  Any event the IHSWCA puts on needs to be in place at least a year in advance, so it is probably too late to make arrangements for an elaborate tournament for 2012-13.  The Hall of Fame Showcase is still possible at this point.  And as Trent stated, their hope is to develop it into a "classed dual state championship".

 

I, for one, feel that this is an appropriate stage of development.  It's not yet exactly what people want, but can be turned into something the IHSAA would be jealous of and possibly want to adopt.  (an official classed dual team state tournament during the 2nd half of the season before the individual state series begins)

[infowrestling]

I think that if you had a 3 class/8 team/class tournament, and set a date, it would not be an issue to leave that date open and schedule around it, especially if you're going to get an extra weigh-in to compete.  That way you don't need to worry about getting in and out of tournaments.  I just feel if you start having it, it will evolve into something programs want their teams to attend.  If we sit back and nit-pick an event like this, nobody will have have the gumption to actually make it happen.  I vote we create it, support it, and then work to improve it.

[maligned]

GrecoCoach,

In making my point, I was never under the illusion that anywhere near all of the schools would elect to participate.   Also, first and second round dual nights could easily be staggered and other "normal" duals could be scheduled outside of those 3 or 4 particular nights.  I don't envision any scenario where more than 75 officials would be needed for a given duals night or "statewide" Saturday.   There are solutions to be had here.

[GrecoCoach]

I really feel like the only way to feasibly pull it all off is to have all teams locked into wrestling on a couple of duals evenings and one particular Saturday. 

Then, teams that don't advance would also automatically fall into consolation duals and/or a consolation tournament according to pre-planned locations and opponent pools.

 

Due to all the reasons mentioned, teams pulling in and out of events willy-nilly just won't work.

 

I hope you can see where I misunderstood your intentions...

[maligned]

I hope you can see where I misunderstood your intentions...

 

What I meant is "all teams who want to participate are committed to wrestling--win or lose--on a couple of specific dates".  You're right.  It was confusing.

[1oldwrestler]

Wow. 

I am not from one of these schools, and I somehow thought most coaches and fans loved the team tournament.  If this is a common opinion, I must be way out of touch.  The team aspect was huge for us when I was in school and when I coached, even though we had no chance against some top dogs most years.  This outlook is extremely foreign to me.

A portion of a post from Coach Peck yesterday:

"I think a majority of coaches responding might be for it, but it would be interesting to see if there are enough coaches who even care about it to make it a valid survey."

 

Maligned - when I see a post from a guy in "the know" like Coach Peck above, I guess it reinforces what I suspected and that is probably most coaches across the state (and I don't think school size matters at all) could really care less about team state.  I think they would prefer to see it stay but will they make an extra effort to keep it?  Sounds doubtful.  Most coaches worry about or want to be on the floor of Conseco guiding a kid to a title.  Of course I am exaggerating when I say 98% or 92% of schools could care less about team state.  But I think the number who could truly care less is somewhere north of 60%.  That is a huge percentage and I think the tiny, yet vociferous, group that is going berserk regarding the loss of team state will have a hard time marshalling support from their coaching peers and actually putting together something that will be semi manageable.  Just my opinioin but I really don't think I'm off base here.

 

 

 

 

[ENoblewrestling]

A portion of a post from Coach Peck yesterday:

"I think a majority of coaches responding might be for it, but it would be interesting to see if there are enough coaches who even care about it to make it a valid survey."

 

Maligned - when I see a post from a guy in "the know" like Coach Peck above, I guess it reinforces what I suspected and that is probably most coaches across the state (and I don't think school size matters at all) could really care less about team state.  I think they would prefer to see it stay but will they make an extra effort to keep it?  Sounds doubtful.  Most coaches worry about or want to be on the floor of Conseco guiding a kid to a title.  Of course I am exaggerating when I say 98% or 92% of schools could care less about team state.  But I think the number who could truly care less is somewhere north of 60%.  That is a huge percentage and I think the tiny, yet vociferous, group that is going berserk regarding the loss of team state will have a hard time marshalling support from their coaching peers and actually putting together something that will be semi manageable.  Just my opinioin but I really don't think I'm off base here.

 

I would say that is pretty far off base.  We did a survey last season asking the coaches what the best way to deside our team state champion was.  I can not remember the exact number but somewhere between 75-80% responded that a classed team state dual was the best way to find a champ.  That shows fairly obviously that most coaches in the state do at least feel that  a dual team state championship is somewhat important.  The idea of a "team" working to only get a few top guys better is what I thnk is off base in this topic.  It may have been that way at one time, but I think a vast majority of coaches in the state work to grow the numbers in their program and work to get every kid better.  Just working with a few instead of the whole team is about the worst possible way to help our sport grow that I can think of.  

[Jake Riesen]

Some people want to grow the sport and some people want to whine when they don't get their way.  Small schools have felt left out of the team series for a long time, and when we finally have the chance to make it right for these teams the IHSWCA gives up.  If the IHSWCA leadership is not up to the task then maybe we should get new leaders.  It would be a fairly simple thing to run if it is a 3 class invite tourney.  Either crap or get of the pot, the coaches want a classed team tourney.  Are you an association for the coaches or do you just do whatever you feel is in your own teams best interest?  I am offended that you even offer a survey when you don't listen to what the state is saying.  It is a sad time for Indiana wrestling when we chose to do away with the importance of a team.  I also want to say I agree whole heartedly with coach Snyder this was done in a Busch League manor and when you do shaddy things you deserve to be called on it.  Congrats on giving up before you even started, I hope you are proud of yourselves.

[1oldwrestler]

I would say that is pretty far off base.  We did a survey last season asking the coaches what the best way to deside our team state champion was.  I can not remember the exact number but somewhere between 75-80% responded that a classed team state dual was the best way to find a champ.  That shows fairly obviously that most coaches in the state do at least feel that  a dual team state championship is somewhat important.  The idea of a "team" working to only get a few top guys better is what I thnk is off base in this topic.  It may have been that way at one time, but I think a vast majority of coaches in the state work to grow the numbers in their program and work to get every kid better.  Just working with a few instead of the whole team is about the worst possible way to help our sport grow that I can think of.  

Busco - I'm not saying that most coaches work or should work only to a few kids.  I think that would be horrible as well.  However, the coaches I have expereince with (large school guys, mind you) look at conference as a major push for them from a team perspective.  Those in conference duals are all important.  Team state is really an afterthought so they build a team culture, but just in a different way.  They don't grow their wrestling room by attracting kids to the possibility of a team state title and that is what I think the teams that are the saddest about team going away do.  I'm not saying it's wrong but they are in the minority.  I agree and I've said as much in prior posts, of course most coaches (not surprised at your number of 75 to 80% at all) would love to see team state continue, as long as they don't have to do much about it to keep it going!  That's where the wheels are goingto fall off this thing.  The majority of coaches don't care enough to make extra work for themselves to see team state continue.  It's not worth their effort.

[ENoblewrestling]

Busco - I'm not saying that most coaches work or should work only to a few kids.  I think that would be horrible as well.  However, the coaches I have expereince with (large school guys, mind you) look at conference as a major push for them from a team perspective.  Those in conference duals are all important.  Team state is really an afterthought so they build a team culture, but just in a different way.  They don't grow their wrestling room by attracting kids to the possibility of a team state title and that is what I think the teams that are the saddest about team going away do.  I'm not saying it's wrong but they are in the minority.  I agree and I've said as much in prior posts, of course most coaches (not surprised at your number of 75 to 80% at all) would love to see team state continue, as long as they don't have to do much about it to keep it going!  That's where the wheels are goingto fall off this thing.  The majority of coaches don't care enough to make extra work for themselves to see team state continue.  It's not worth their effort.

Fair points, my only question is why would big schools not try to push to someday make the team state.  They have the numbers (in terms of total student potulation) to compete with everyone, why not strive to get to that top level?

[Jake Riesen]

I don't see whats so hard about inviting 4 or 8 teams to a place and having them wrestle.  You act like its rocket science.  It saddens me to see the lack of commitment to the sport.  If our wrestlers had our coaches commitment we would be dead last in the nation.  You should be ashamed for quiting on this.  Not to mention the Holiday classic has all of the same problems as a invite state tourney would.  The only difference is people would actually come down to see a classed team state tourney.    THus we would generate revenue and have new goals for wrestlers and teams to accomplish.  

[ENoblewrestling]

I don't see whats so hard about inviting 4 or 8 teams to a place and having them wrestle.  You act like its rocket science.  It saddens me to see the lack of commitment to the sport.  If our wrestlers had our coaches commitment we would be dead last in the nation.  You should be ashamed for quiting on this.  Not to mention the Holiday classic has all of the same problems as a invite state tourney would.  The only difference is people would actually come down to see a classed team state tourney.    THus we would generate revenue and have new goals for wrestlers and teams to accomplish.  

They problem comes with the question of whether or not the top teams would change their schedule to compete.  Not whether or not the an event could be pulled of.  The association could host an event easily, it is the question of whether or not the top teams would come.  Personally I feel that they would have, others questioned didn't believe so.

[Coach McCormick]

Some of the recent posts on this thread are exactly on the mark.

 

1.  "Athletic Directors being pressured to make quick changes to schedules"

2. "A team makes the Team Duals event one year, but then doesn't make the cut the following year so they have to find another option for that weekend somewhere around the state"  (thus creating major scheduling ripples across the state)

 

It is a pretty big animal to tackle as it impacts most all programs across the state.  I personally apologize for prematurely releasing a Team Duals format and then switching directions shortly thereafter.  In the end I, and the other officers and reps, felt it was better to slow down a bit and change direction now rather than create a debacle of an event down the road.

 

Someone in one thread mentioned that it would be ideal to have a blocked out set of days during the season to host a Team Duals event that would not put so many teams (if any) in a scheduling crunch.   You are exactly right.  Whether that is over the holidays or an IHSWCA - IHSAA agreed upon set of moratorium days, that will be the ideal goal down the road.

 

 

Some Hall of Fame Classic "knowns" at this point:

1. Teams will still apply to participate based on their desire to participate.

2. It will be held over the holiday break.  Exact dates will be selected based on teams' selected and their holiday tournament schedules.

3. It will be a "classed" showcase event.

 

 

Coach McCormick

[1oldwrestler]

Fair points, my only question is why would big schools not try to push to someday make the team state.  They have the numbers (in terms of total student potulation) to compete with everyone, why not strive to get to that top level?

 

Great question.  I can't answer it as I'm only a parent and not a coach.  I agree with you that a team that strives for that type of goal will produce better individuals, undoubtedly.  However, there are many factors that make creating a great wrestling team at big high schools difficult:

1) Soft kids

2) Football coach actively tells kids not to wrestle

3) Coach burnout

4) Etc

Just because a school is big and has numbers doesn't mean it's easy.  In fact, the small schools have it easier in a lot of ways because most of the time they are rural kids so they know how to work and the coaches from the other sports work together to promote one another.  Suffice it to say that everyone has their own issues.

[Y2CJ41]

Franklin has a super dual with Jeffersonville, Yorktown, Holt(MI) and some other solid teams also.  There were at least 25 different events going on that day across the state last year which means roughly half of the schools in the state were active.  That is a large number of schools to tell not to wrestle on a certain date and "good luck finding a replacement."

 

On top of that the IHSWCA is not respected throughout the coaching ranks.  It is perceived as a good old boys club and coaches mostly join if they go to the clinic or have someone nominated for academic all-state.  At the present time very few teams would adhere to a blackout date.  As I have stated numerous times, I think the IHSWCA should look at growing their membership and fixing the blown up bridge they have with the IHSAA.

[aoberlin]

I like the idea of taking the top 8 ranked teams and hosting it a certain day.  What about the weekend before Conference?  I know people have things scheduled already.  But it is pretty simple, if we all agree that we want a team state then we change our schedules to leave that date open.  That would give teams that aren't competing the chance to have a Saturday off, a day of practice, or a chance to go watch some good wrestling before the post season starts.  I know allot of schools don't wrestle the opening weekend.  Well maybe they need to change that and start their season a weekend earlier.  Also with taking the top 8 ranked teams everyone will be watching the rankings more and that would put targets on those top ranked teams which would create some real exciting season match ups.  I can just picture a number 9 or 10 ranked team wrestling a number 8 ranked team and the excitement just being huge and drawing a good crowd.  I realize rankings aren't going to be perfect.  But I would hope we can at least get the top 2 or so teams correct and the true State Champion team will prevail.  If you want to have 3 classes then have 3 classes and you could have it one school or 3 different schools.  Heck you could give an opportunity to one of the top 8 schools in those classes the chance to host it every year.  

 

Am I off base here?  I could be missing something.  

[Y2CJ41]

Not all conferences have their tournament the week before sectional.  Some over in da Region have it two weeks before sectional.

[aoberlin]

Not all conferences have their tournament the week before sectional.  Some over in da Region have it two weeks before sectional.

 

They would have to change that then.  Pretty simple.

[MattM]

maligned did mention a decent idea that if we have a blackout week or two to offer a regional type of "consolation event" for those that did not make the finals.  That may be workable in some fashion so that way team at least have an option to wrestle that weekend each year.

[BeastMode#31]

I don't see whats so hard about inviting 4 or 8 teams to a place and having them wrestle.  You act like its rocket science.  It saddens me to see the lack of commitment to the sport.  If our wrestlers had our coaches commitment we would be dead last in the nation.  You should be ashamed for quiting on this.  Not to mention the Holiday classic has all of the same problems as a invite state tourney would.  The only difference is people would actually come down to see a classed team state tourney.    THus we would generate revenue and have new goals for wrestlers and teams to accomplish.  

 

Couldnt agree more....invite the top 8 teams in 2 classes and the fans will come

[Y2CJ41]

Are you certain only a very few teams would adhere to a blackout date? and what would constitute as a "very few?" The only way we are ever going to know is if we ask the questions. Assuming that only a few teams would do so is unproductive.

Yes I am certain not all teams and more specifically only probably 25 would even care about this. The IHSWCA usually hovers around 35-40% head coaches that are members and most of them only join because they want to get a kid academic all-state or go to the clinic.

 

I believe that the IHSWCA is looking at growing their membership. That's one of the responsibilities that's just been instilled upon each regional rep, according to the minutes you posted on here. So that front is taken care of.

That was the goal under Cale Hoover, that was the goal under Barry Humble, that was the goal under.....etc. They have done very little to draw in new members.  What makes this regime any different?

 

Furthermore, how blown up is the bridge with the IHSAA? From what I understand, the IHSAA has offered it's assistance in setting up a team dual. Plus has allowed it to be an exemption from the regular season point total.

That was so the IHSWCA would get out of their hair about the subject.  The IHSAA knew from the get-go that it would be impossible for the IHSWCA to pull it off and it looks like they were right.

[Jake Riesen]

I think the coaches association should have a make up meeting to vote on the issue of class team state.  It is obvious that many of the coaches were not informed there would be a vote of this porportion at the meeting.  Lets do another meeting 2 Sundays from now to get all voices heard on the matter.  Also lets get more coaches involved in the structuring of the tourney.  Any Indy area coaches with 3 gyms come in and try and host the event.  Lets not talk on here lets get involved thats the only way to get the association to move in the right direction.  If McCormick can not make it thats fine this is an association of the coaches.  So set your calenders lets do this two Sundays from now lets talk with ADs and come together for once to grow the sport.  Whos with me on giving a little more effort to get this done?  It will suck for a season but then all the chips will fall into place.  A little sacrifice for a big time event.  All coaches who want to attend lets get in contact with McCormick today.  If you will attend let the wrestling community know on here.