Coach Hull Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Compiling information for thesis and trying to get feedback from Indiana on this as we approach the upcoming season: What are the most important aspects of building a national program? We can look at the Perry's, EMD's, Mishawaka's, here in Indiana as powerhouses who have cracked the country's best, along with the country's best: Apple Valley, St. Paris Grahm, Brandon, St. Edwards, Blair, Broken Arrow, etc. Is it the coaches? a few good kids? administration? Parents? middle school and elementary programs? Class wrestling? Time? Money? More money? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 In my term in the sport as a coach (be it short compared to many) I've seen talented programs arise from: Quality coach at all levels with little change in staff over the years and teach a similar curriculum. Development of a solid youth program that kids enjoy and parents trust. An administration, school, and community that at least acknowledges the efforts and accomplishments of the wrestlers. I'm sure each area has slight differences and some find ways around obsticles which allow for at least some short term results. But, areas where the things above are in place I've noticed don't just grow there program but usually have a much longer stint of success thereafter. Obviously when tradition starts to slowly creep in place and multiple generations of wrestlers stay in the community the above factors seems to fall in place much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Recruiting Very few of those programs actually develop kids from the start and get lots of move-ins. The coaches at these programs would really struggle with kids that have never wrestled before coming out for the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenaciuos1 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 As a former high school wrestler, youth coach, and parent of two boys invovled in wrestling, I have observed from these three perspectives what I feel is important to build a powerhouse. I believe that administrators at a school first have to have the idea of that they want to spend money and get behind the program. The next thing is a highly motivated coach. One could argue that a motivated coach could get administration on his side with vision and increasing success over time, so maybe administration and the coach go hand in hand. In my opinion, these are the cornerstones to building a powerhouse, but I think most of what MattM replyed comes after these two are in place. I would be naive to think recruiting doesn't happen, but I'm not sure if a coach really needs to much if a successful program is already built, "...if you build it, they will come." I do not want to muddy the waters with the discussion of money, I understand that a coach needs to make a living just like anyone else. That being said, money is a huge part of the building. Camps, club membership, gear, venues, travel, and a motivated coach all cost money. If parents don't or can't spend the money for their child to get the training he or she needs or don't or can't spend the money to travel to large prestigous tourneys that give invaluable experience, the child has a larger hill to overcome at state tourney time for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I agree with others. If we're thinking about top programs nationally, money and recruiting are huge with most of them. If we're thinking about building a state power, these hopefully aren't necessities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charger.dad Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 money, adminstration backing, motivated coach, parental support, great kids program......are you guys talking about Penn?.......lol......they have all of this and more......watch for them to be THE school in Indiana in the coming years........they truly have every base covered along with being such a big school, there are tons of kids to pick from...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I agree with others. If we're thinking about top programs nationally, money and recruiting are huge with most of them. If we're thinking about building a state power, these hopefully aren't necessities. If the rules says a kid can start at any school of his choice, and there is not a penalty unless he leaves the school he starts, then why is recruiting brought up? Kids and parents have the right to go where they want their kid to go. Every program mentioned above has everything it takes to win, starting with coaches who give a great deal more than what the job pays. The rest of this crap is excuses...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Actually there are rules against recruiting 8th graders, you might want to brush up on your IHSAA rules. If you don't think the best schools in the country and even the state haven't benefited from "random" move-ins then you might want to take your head out of the sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenaciuos1 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 If the rules says a kid can start at any school of his choice, and there is not a penalty unless he leaves the school he starts, then why is recruiting brought up? Kids and parents have the right to go where they want their kid to go. Every program mentioned above has everything it takes to win, starting with coaches who give a great deal more than what the job pays. The rest of this crap is excuses...... Excuses for what? What specifically do you think is crap? What is your everything it takes to win list? Yes I agree that people can take their kids where they want, to give their kid the best possible shot, but we are not writing about whether or not they should for any reason, just what does it take to be a national power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regionrat1 Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 1) a GREAT Age group program - hook um when there young 2) Dosen't hurt to a have great coaching staff 3) Make the football coach your friend When you have a good program families will more to your school system - you don't need to recruit they find you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raven150 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 1] having a core group of athletes/parents on a continuous basis who truly want to put the time in to become better 2] having a coaching base from club to high school that communicate and have the same general philosophy & has little change over 3] administrative & community support to help with facilities & training [camps, big meets, etc..] 4] a strong local economy helps recruiting. people come to where the work is to support their families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hawaiian Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 1) a GREAT Age group program - hook um when there young 2) Dosen't hurt to a have great coaching staff 3) Make the football coach your friend When you have a good program families will more to your school system - you don't need to recruit they find you Could not have said it much better, build it and they will come!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Blair Academy doesn't have two of those three items, how are they so good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Compiling information for thesis and trying to get feedback from Indiana on this as we approach the upcoming season: What are the most important aspects of building a national program? We can look at the Perry's, EMD's, Mishawaka's, here in Indiana as powerhouses who have cracked the country's best, along with the country's best: Apple Valley, St. Paris Grahm, Brandon, St. Edwards, Blair, Broken Arrow, etc. Is it the coaches? a few good kids? administration? Parents? middle school and elementary programs? Class wrestling? Time? Money? More money? Thoughts? Parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Without parents these kids....wouldn't be alive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navychiefmatt09 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 They push the same thing the Navy has been stressing for years. Brilliance on the Basics. Drilling the fundamentals for so many years that it becomes as common as breathing. Ever watched a top tier wrestler try to demonstrate a bad habit or the wrong way to do something on the mat? The basics are so ingrained that they have a difficult time screwing it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodogs Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 With any good sports program it starts with coaching. a coach that can teach and motivate. Start young and grow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someguy.171 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 1) a GREAT Age group program - hook um when there young 2) Dosen't hurt to a have great coaching staff 3) Make the football coach your friend When you have a good program families will more to your school system - you don't need to recruit they find you But some football coachs don't like the wrestling team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guru Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 1. You need a solid feeder system that develops technically solid kids coming in to the high school every year. If you have roughly a full Freshman team coming in every year, consisting of technically sound, committed kids, who understand what it takes to be successful at the next level, you're WAY ahead of 95% of the programs in Indiana. This enables you to reload year after year and stay solid throughout the weight classes. 2. Culture and team identity are huge. The programs with an identity and culture of being hard-nosed workers are consistently better than those who lack any culture or tradition. When you have this, it makes it something special to be a part of. And that is what kids today are looking for. They want to be part of something special. The young kids coming up through the system look up to the HS athletes and are hungry for their shot. 3. Coaching staff. You need a coaching staff that is on the same page, with assistants who accept and excel in their specific roles. You also need coaches who are good at developing the marginal wrestlers in the room. It's not often that your studs against their studs are the difference makers in a dual or tournament. It's usually the team that can develop their less-talented/experienced guys throughout the course of the season that wins consistently. When you wrestle a Perry Meridian or Mater Dei, their marginal guys are always solid and they wrestle smart. That's huge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Hull Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 A fellow coach and I were having this conversation and the question was asked about what part individual class wrestling plays in this discussion. So I took a look at the top programs in the country and broke it down a little. This is per the 2010-2011 Wrestling USA Magazine Rankings of the Top 40 high school wrestling programs in the country: - Of that top 40, only 19 states have at least one program ranked - Illinois and New Jersey both tied for the most with 5 schools being represented. - Next was Minnesota with 4, followed by Pennsylvania, Florida, California, and Iowa with 3, along with Oklahoma and Wisonsin with 2. - Of the top 5 schools, all come from individual classed states: Apple Valley Minnesota (3 classes) St. Paris Graham and St. Edwards from Ohio (3 classes) Brandon Florida (3 classes) Blair Academy New Jersey with one class. - 3 of the top 5 schools are private. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Blair does not wrestle in the New Jersey state finals, they wrestle in the prep nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Most states with a solid wrestling base have established a class system in most/all individual and team sports, including wrestling. So it would make since that most team even in the top 20 would comes from class wrestling states. The reason for establishing and the effects of class sports for each sports/schools/states probably varies depending on the situation and is a different topic all together. A better way to look at the national wrestling rankings it in terms of the great "class argument" may be are all or most of the top team in the highest class in their state or are there some in other classes. The private vs public argument is a whole different set of variables when we look at the class/recruiting/program development issues. And if they are: Did individual class create situation where the other mid-size and smaller-size school have been able to flourished into talented program as a result of the class separation from the national powers. Or are the other mid/small class teams still at an average level but at least more recognition by not competing with those big school national powers. If some mid-size and small-size class teams are ranked high: Then did separating into class where more of those guys could be recognized at the state level play any factor in their growth to a national power. Or did it have little effect and many of these other factors we have mentioned were the reason they got to that level. Not sure we can clearly find those "class answer" but they are the big mystery with class sports. However, it bring me back to a series of thoughts I have made over several years when the point is made that most states have class wrestling and some do better than us. What are the factors/reason some of these areas/state have developed into wrestling powers and stayed near the top for the last 25-50 years? What has caused certain areas/states that used to be none factors to quickly rise in national success in just the last 5-8 years? What can Indiana learn from the development of both these areas/states in order to start moving up to that next level? The answers to those questions may involves a lot of investigating but could paint a more clear picture of wrestling success similar to what Coach Hull may be hunting for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
untouchable1210 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Recruiting Very few of those programs actually develop kids from the start and get lots of move-ins. The coaches at these programs would really struggle with kids that have never wrestled before coming out for the team. To assure yourself a spot in the top 8 in Indiana for TEAM comp you have to do some recruiting. If you don't get caught then I guess it is ..... not really cheating? Top 8 Indiana Teams are jockeying for the top talent.# 9 thru 25 are probably true community teams not All Star or Club Teams. I agree with Y2 ON THIS ONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
au160 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 To make a great team I think it comes down to two things: money and coaches Hamilton Southeastern is a great example: four years ago they had 3-4 coaches and saw moderate success, nothing that was any different from previous years. This year they have 6-8 coaches including Jordin Humphrey, in their room. Money also plays a huge role: many kids these days have summer jobs, and other responsibilities to attend to at home. When kids have the financial resources to reduce time spent outside school supporting themselves they can spend more time on the mat during the summer and spring. I think HSE has done a tremendous job at turning their program around and to quote the previous statement " You have to recruit to be top 8 in indiana" that could not be farther from the truth. The beauty of that program is that one can see the evolution of the unathletic wrestlers into sectional and regional champions. At the end of the day though it comes down to the wrestlers on the mat. If the kids don't have the will to win then you won't see any success no matter how much money or coaches you have. There is a reason places like Anderson Highland have had 4 state championships in the past couple of years even though they do not have either of the previously mentioned resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 If the rules says a kid can start at any school of his choice, and there is not a penalty unless he leaves the school he starts, then why is recruiting brought up? Kids and parents have the right to go where they want their kid to go. Every program mentioned above has everything it takes to win, starting with coaches who give a great deal more than what the job pays. The rest of this crap is excuses...... Sorry, I wasn't even talking about Indiana. I was talking about true top 5 national powers. Money and recruiting are hugely important to their success. I'm not saying this as a slight or a jab--it's just true. In Indiana, as others have said, there can't be direct recruiting, but move-ins inevitably happen as families seek better opportunities for their kids. And programs have to be built--not recruited. I'm not sure how answering the question about national powers is "making excuses". It's the nature of the beast at the top level for these cream of the crop prep schools and private schools. In addition to many of the other qualities, there has to be recruiting and cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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