My New Tweaked "All-In" Team Tournament

[GrecoCoach]

Okay, late night feedings with a newborn have given me plenty of time to think about the best way to format the Coaches Association Team Series (CATS for short, although I still like calling it the Joe Caprino Invite Open  ;D)

 

This new format might start small and manageable, but does allow basically an "all-in" series that could easily grow in popularity, especially if we can convince the top teams to get involved early on.

 

April 15, 2012 ? Deadline for the Head Coach of each school to notify the IHSWCA that they will be part of the Coaches Association Team Series for the next season (2012-2013).

?Head Coach must be a current member of the association for the 2011-12 season (previous year) for his team to be included.

?Head Coach and AD must clear schedule of any weeknight duals during the first week of January.

?The Saturday at the end of that week can still have a tournament scheduled, but the coach must notify the host school that they will be participating in the association?s tournament series and they might not be able to attend the regular tournament if they qualify for the final event.  Contracts can be adjusted accordingly, and host schools of those tournaments would need to be flexible.

?Given the number of entries, the IHSWCA will divide the teams into classes (based on size) and geographical Districts (either 8 or 16 depending on number of entries).  This will be organized during May, and the first round(s) of the series will be scheduled for that first week of January.  (1 or 2 weeknights depending on what?s needed)  District Champs (8 or 16 per class) would move on to the final meet on Saturday.

 

Benefits of This Format:

- Everyone who wants to be part of it can enter (close enough to ?all-in?).

- Coaches/Teams have a choice based on what is best for their own program.

- No ?invitation criteria? needed.

- Allows plenty of time to organize and schedule everything.

- Can be classed as it best fits the numbers.

- Will probably start small, but gain interest and participation at its own pace.

- If all or most of the top teams participate, then 2nd tier teams will want to join to get the better competition.

- Final meet should be pooled, not bracketed.  One-and-done won?t attract all the top teams from a competition standpoint, especially in the middle of the season.  I suggest 4 pools of 4 - round robin.  Winners of each pool wrestle semi finals and finals for 1st-4th.  2nd in each pool wrestle a semi finals and finals for 5th-8th. and so on.  Each team  gets a full 5 matches.

- Genius Ratings can be used to seed/separate the final tournament.

- We only have to ask the IHSAA to allow the weeknight duals to be considered part of 1 multiple day event.  No extra weigh-in points are necessary.

 

Obviously, there are still details that need to be ironed out, but I see it as very realistic to get it going and let it grow into the tournament we want it to be.  Go ahead guys, nitpick away...

[KarlHungus]

Now were cooking

[BizzyCoach]

This is definitely the best proposal I've seen.  I'm with it all the way.  I'd be curious to know what some of the big name schools have to say about it.  It certainly silences the "Mishawaka vs. Penn" argument 

 

Also, what is the reality that we would need to book transportation several nights in a row that week.  Not a big deal for me, but with the transportation budget of some schools being cut, this could become an issue.

[infowrestling]

I really think it looks great.  I like the one and done format as I think it adds more excitement, but I also agree with the idea that we have to promise more matches, in order to get teams to buy into participating.  I like it a lot!  (Forrest Gump)

[AJ]

Allowing schools to choose to take part or not is a bonus. 

[GrecoCoach]

I'm really interested in finding out what the coaches of our top programs think of this format - especially if they would want their team to be a part of it in its first or second years.

 

Coach Tonte, Coach Snyder, Coach McCormick, Coach Faurote, Coach Vlink, Coach Schaeffer, Coach Harmon, Coach Ellis, Coach Williams, Coach McGinley, and any other coach who has ever had a goal of their team winning team state (sorry if I forgot to mention you), please let me know what your opinion is about this format and if it's something you'd like your program to be part of.

 

Side Note:

I realize this would be the same weekend as Bellmont's outstanding event.  Through all the discussion in all the other threads about this topic, the first week of January seems to be the most appropriate time to do it.  Coach Faurote, your duals at Bellmont have become one of the best days of wrestling in the state.  I'm not trying to take that away.  I believe your event can be moved to another weekend and again grow into the premier event that it is now.

[Darrick Snyder]

GrecoCoach,

 

There are so many different possibilities for the direction of the Coaches Team State Tournament.  I need to spend some more time considering all possibilities to determine which one I think is best, but I like your proposal. 

 

If your proposal was adopted, Mishawaka would participate immediately.  Competing  as a team in a dual meet to determine the champions is what our program if focused around.  It is the only thing we talk about at Mishawaka. 

 

Darrick

[Smooth34]

 District Champs (8 or 16 per class) would move on to the final meet on Saturday.

 

 

How many classes?  If there are four classes, would you have time to get through all the matches in one day?  Four 16-teams bracket, at single-elimination, would be 28 matches.  You would need at least four mats to get this done in one day.  One mat per class.    Even that seems like a long day for teams making it to the finals.  Right?

 

Two classes seems more manageable to do in one day with this format.  Or only bring 8 teams to the final day.

[GrecoCoach]

How many classes?  If there are four classes, would you have time to get through all the matches in one day?  Four 16-teams bracket, at single-elimination, would be 28 matches.  You would need at least four mats to get this done in one day.  One mat per class.    Even that seems like a long day for teams making it to the finals.  Right?

 

Two classes seems more manageable to do in one day with this format.  Or only bring 8 teams to the final day.

Valid question that I wasn't clear about.  Sorry.

 

They would be different venues for each class.  I'm assuming we can find schools with fieldhouses that can hold 8 mats for the 16 teams to all compete at once.  A smaller school like North Montgomery has a very nice fieldhouse that could do this.  Surely there are others around the state.  If not, then 8 teams on 4 mats could also work, depending on the number of schools participating and coordinating all of it ahead of time.

[Smooth34]

Valid question that I wasn't clear about.  Sorry.

 

They would be different venues for each class.  I'm assuming we can find schools with fieldhouses that can hold 8 mats for the 16 teams to all compete at once.  A smaller school like North Montgomery has a very nice fieldhouse that could do this.  Surely there are others around the state.  If not, then 8 teams on 4 mats could also work, depending on the number of schools participating and coordinating all of it ahead of time.

 

Gotcha.  Sounds good!

[Jake Riesen]

I must say I like the idea for the format; I do have a lot of little concerns.  I would rather start with an all in tourney for 2 or 3 years and then add sign up fees and here is why.

 

1.  The initial setup would be harder to setup then an all in because of having to wait on teams signing up, having to district from non-ideal locations (ex.  20 1 a schools from up north sign up and only12 from the south), and constantly changing teams.

2.  I have heard the coaches who get to compete at team state talk about what all it has done for their teams and how it makes them strive to be better.  We need a classed all in tourney for a few years to show the benefits of the team tourney to coaches and teams that think they cannot compete. 

3.  I agree with not being one and done to an extent. My proposal is on the all in tourney board post.  I would wrestle back every round for placement in an all in tourney.  Placement would allow for all teams to get matches in and see how they fair against the whole field.

4.  If we make it an all in tourney to start that clears a week of matches out from every single team?s schedules.  It?s a one or two time thing and it can be done.  What this would do is make it harder for other tournaments to start up after the fact and take away from the significance of the team tournament.  It monopolizes a week of wrestling to an extent.

5.  The teams that do not want to gain membership to the coaches association after the two year all in tournament will either be teams that do not like the format or teams that will never be able to compete.  The coaches association will gain more members and have more of a say after the fact because more teams will be contributing to the discussion.

 

These are just some of my thoughts on the matter feel free to pick me apart, but its just one mans opinion.

[Jake Riesen]

FYI #4 is the one I think is most important in starting a new tournament of this magnitude.  If the coaches association wants team state to be something great it has to force the tournament in to gain exposure on the state as a whole.  The tourney can be tweaked year after year to run better, but if we start with nothing to try to gain something like this I think the idea will fail.  Give the product to the wrestling community before you ask for membership.  We failed the last time because a lot of teams did not feel they could compete for anything meaningful.  Class it get all the teams involved and do not turn this into a glorified Belmont Duals.  If you love team state and the sport of wrestling do not turn this into the same type of situation as the last tournament.  Just my opinion.

[GrecoCoach]

ttipton,

 

Obviously we disagree on some fundamental things about this tournament and format.  I truly believe that forcing a full all-in tournament upon every school will cause more backlash than good.  If the coaches association allows coaches and ADs the option, then (a) it will start small and manageable, ( the teams that really want to compete for the title of best dual team in the state will want to be part of it, © the teams that feel they don't have a chance to compete can still do their own thing that is best for them, and (d) the teams that aren't sure about the format can wait a year to see how it is working.

 

Forcing teams to alter their schedule to compete in something they don't feel is a benefit to their program will undoubtedly cause it to fail.  This tournament really isn't for everyone.  Teams that only fill 6 or 7 weight classes can do more for their program in other ways.  This tournament is mostly for the top teams who want to win it and the teams who want to see how well they can compete with the best in the state.  Most teams have a very established schedule that hardly changes from year to year, if at all.  This would give them a chance to have dual(s) with different teams.

 

In the old format, only 32 total teams got to feel involved in the dual tournament.  This format gives 311 teams the option of being involved.  I'd say that is a huge improvement.  If it ends up being 3 classes with 16 teams each in the final event, then that's 48 schools competing in an exciting and meaningful event instead of the 8 teams in the old format.  Again, that's a huge improvement that can definitely generate lots of local interest as teams progress through the week.

 

The set-up won't be easy, but that's why I gave a deadline in April.  IHSWCA would have many months to plan and organize the whole series.  Setting up an all-in tournament would be just as difficult.  Plus, the IHSAA had the luxury of being able to force schools to work around their scheduled events.  The coaches association doesn't have that kind of power over ADs.  There is no way we can tell an AD that he/she has to move a JV girls basketball game for an event they don't even want to be part of.

 

Finally (for now), if a team chooses not to be a part of this simply because they do not want to become members of the coaches association, then that is just pathetic and a disservice to their program.  Our membershp per school is way too low, and this can be a platform to improve it.

[Jake Riesen]

Thank you for not getting angry on here Greco Coach.  We have two different ideas on this and it is nice to actually show the two sides.  I do agree that the tournament will be smaller and more managable at first.  My problem is not with the top big schools wanting to take part in the tournament its that it will be a lot harder to get the smaller schools to look at the tourney as a true state championship tournament(because of the teams in the field).  Maybe your right maybe it will grow into something great, but my thoughts are if the initial product does not feel like a state championship then it will be very slow to grow.  That may hinder the ihsaa on whether to keep the tournament or not. 

 

I think if you were going to use this type of format one thing to look into would be allowing teams that drop their own tournaments for that week to still hold an event in their facilities.  Ex.  if Belmont moves the duals they hold part of the tournament in their facilities.

Also membership from the start I still say should not be forced.  Prove to the wrestling community that the coaches association can hold a meaningful event. 

Have set days for certain events during the tournament.  Make it easier for the public and the press to cover the tournament.

 

The coaches association is trying to redo the most prestigous team tournament make sure it looks and feels as though its a state title.  If we can not do that it is just mearly a good competitive dual tournament that all teams can find several of throughout the season. 

 

[GrecoCoach]

Since this will be a factor. How about adding a petition that'll allow for smaller teams to bump up classes, assuming there are going to be classes? I'm sure a team like Mater Dei would like to have this kind of opportunity, instead of beating the snot out of 1a teams all the time. Also, it'll be a good measuring stick for other small programs to show how far their own programs have come if given this chance. If they feel their program is not ready to wrestle up against the bigger boys, then they won't petition.

 

Great idea!  This would actually be pretty easy with this format.  When teams indicate that they're going to participate the next season, they could also state that they want to bump up a class.  Only minor adjustments would need to be made to accomodate this.  As an added selling point, this could be done on a year-by-year basis, so a team like EMD could make their own decision each season about which class would be in the best interest of their team.

[infowrestling]

ttipton,

 

Obviously we disagree on some fundamental things about this tournament and format.  I truly believe that forcing a full all-in tournament upon every school will cause more backlash than good.  If the coaches association allows coaches and ADs the option, then (a) it will start small and manageable, ( the teams that really want to compete for the title of best dual team in the state will want to be part of it, © the teams that feel they don't have a chance to compete can still do their own thing that is best for them, and (d) the teams that aren't sure about the format can wait a year to see how it is working.

 

Forcing teams to alter their schedule to compete in something they don't feel is a benefit to their program will undoubtedly cause it to fail.  This tournament really isn't for everyone.  Teams that only fill 6 or 7 weight classes can do more for their program in other ways.  This tournament is mostly for the top teams who want to win it and the teams who want to see how well they can compete with the best in the state.  Most teams have a very established schedule that hardly changes from year to year, if at all.  This would give them a chance to have dual(s) with different teams.

 

In the old format, only 32 total teams got to feel involved in the dual tournament.  This format gives 311 teams the option of being involved.  I'd say that is a huge improvement.  If it ends up being 3 classes with 16 teams each in the final event, then that's 48 schools competing in an exciting and meaningful event instead of the 8 teams in the old format.  Again, that's a huge improvement that can definitely generate lots of local interest as teams progress through the week.

 

The set-up won't be easy, but that's why I gave a deadline in April.  IHSWCA would have many months to plan and organize the whole series.  Setting up an all-in tournament would be just as difficult.  Plus, the IHSAA had the luxury of being able to force schools to work around their scheduled events.  The coaches association doesn't have that kind of power over ADs.  There is no way we can tell an AD that he/she has to move a JV girls basketball game for an event they don't even want to be part of.

 

Finally (for now), if a team chooses not to be a part of this simply because they do not want to become members of the coaches association, then that is just pathetic and a disservice to their program.  Our membershp per school is way too low, and this can be a platform to improve it.

 

I just really like the idea of inviting everyone, and giving them the CHOICE to come to the tourney to start with.  The Invitation only format just left a bad taste in my mouth.  Also I think, with team's like Mishawaka already stating that they would participate in a tournament run in this format, you are definitely on the right track!

[Jake Riesen]

Im not opposed to anything but if this proposal is going to roll we should start a list of particpating schools to generate interest early.  If the coaches association could come out with 100 or so schools that will be willing to compete I think the numbers may rise.  Teams need to want to be a part of this tourney because it will become dead on arrival if the interest is not there. 

If this will be the main proposal I have some ideas to help promote it.

 

I think it would be cool to see a set number of classes and have a list of the classes that changes as teams are added or taken away from the tourney(so class based on entering teams not classes from other sports.  You mentioned this in an earlier post, but it would be cool to see the tournament grow daily with a set number of classes.  It would also allow people to see what teams were in to put some pressure from parents to get thier teams involved).  The coaches association needs to get something done sooner rather then later and promote the tournament asap.  Im not concerned with the format of the tourney as much as I am concerned with not having any idea to propose to the ihsaa.  SO my suggestion would be get something on paper and go with it.  We can talk on here and give ideas but it means jack crap if people don't all get on board.

[lsk10135]

Maybe you could set a IHSWCA member to be the representative of their conference in order to get the word out to all of the coaches in the State. Each conference would have an individual whose job would be too inform all of the coaches in that conference regularly on what the tournament format would be, changes, regulations, rules, etc. There would probably be more entries in the first year if the coaches and ADs had time to think about it well before next April or whenever the deadline will be set for entries. I know not all coaches view this board regularly. That person could also push coaches to join the IHSWCA sooner rather than later. The more information moved around increase the odds of teams joining the tourney, "The squeeky wheel gets the grease".

[gstemv81]

I mentioned this on tskin's thread and I'll bring it up here.  He suggests a pre-Christmas team state series in order to avoid scheduling conflicts and January snowouts.  My question is can we hold preliminaries the week before Christmas and the team state finals the week after individual State?  My concern is that holding a team state event in the middle of the regular season will reduce team state to a regular season event.

[MattM]

My question is can we hold preliminaries the week before Christmas and the team state finals the week after individual State? 

 

The ISWCA was told by the IHSAA they had to complete any such event prior to the start of the IHSAA individual tournament starting.

[indyt]

Jake, I am with Darrick on this.  There are so many options right now and its making my head spin.  I like what I see of your proposal but I need more time to look at it.  I truly felt the system we had was sufficient other than not being classed.  I know people felt that it did not include everyone and that you made the team tournament thru the individual tournament but I can honestly say that for my first four years at Perry we never once said this was not fair when we did not win our sectional.  We just tried to figure out a way to get it done.  It took a while but we did and now someone else has been on our heels trying to figure out how to get it done against us.  But,  with that  being said, yes, I like it and yes PM would participate in this or something similar if it meant being IHSWCA Team State Champs.  I am really confused by the IHSAA right now though.  They are telling us one of the reasons to drop team state is that we went against the bylaws and gave a trophy away at Conseco that was not IHSAA sponsored but then they turn around and tell us to come up with our own tournament and call it IHSWCA state champs-is it against the bylaws or not??  Just throwing that out there.