Reasons for a class system for team state

[gstemv81]

So out of state schools will be fooled into recruiting a small school state champ with a 30-10 record?  Let's get specific. Which kids THIS YEAR might get overlooked or "underrecruited" who otherwise would be recruited because they would have been a small school placewinner?  How about last year?  Let's have names!  It seems to me that we need more in-state Indiana college wrestling.

 

Y2 says that IHSAA would handle the logistics of a multi-class state series for individual and teams.  But what does that mean?  I think it means we would kiss Conseco (and the lights) goodbye.  The "new and improved"  3-day state meet will be a glorified summer ISWA tourney.

 

The numbers in Y2's enrollment charts don't add up.  Out of 285 schools he shows a 3-class system breakdown of 103 each for the top two classes and only 79 for the bottom class.  This is a big deal because it determines the bubble teams.  With Y2's chart the smallest three teams in class 2 would be Fairfield (558), Indianapolis Washington (563) and Evansville Mater Dei (564).  It looks like Alexandria (545) is the biggest school in class 1.  I'll bet Fairfield and Alexandria didn't know they are the bubble teams!  Good for Alexandria, sucks to be Fairfield.  This is what I mean by balkanizing Indiana wrestling.  However, if the three classes are divided evenly MD would be in the small school division.  Who determined the class divisions?

 

Is anybody making the case for classing the catholic schools?  That way MD, Cathedral and Roncalli, etc. can be in their own little parallel universe and not beat down on the poor public schools.  As far as I know only New Jersey does this on account of Blair Academy.

 

Our individual and team state series are outstanding as they are.  In particular, individual state is truly something special and unduplicated almost anywhere else in the country.  The kids know its the real deal.  We see enough liberal social engineering fantasies coming out of Washington D.C. - no need to replicate it here in Indiana.

 

 

[army197]

The level that states like Illinois Pennsylvania Ohio are good recruiting pipeline because they send a lot of kids to national tourneys than indiana. College coaches go to. Fargo reno nationals places like that too see guys wrestle. Class wrestling will not determine a true champion. Md is q small school and used to send a lot of kids to state.

 

Just say no to class wrestling so we know who the true cut best eight guys are in each weight in the state are!

[MattM]

watching the Holgraphic Wrestling State Finals in the year 3031.

 

I pick TronBot 502 to win the 152 weight class.  That robot has a nasty snapdown.  It rattles his competators nuts and bolts as semi-state.

[BlueBolt]

I pick TronBot 502 to win the 152 weight class.  That robot has a nasty snapdown.  It rattles his competators nuts and bolts as semi-state.

 

Reminds me of the Epic Battles Between the Welchbot 2500 and the Sims-a-tron 2390 during the 2600 State Finals Al!  Look at those Bots Pummel!

 

 

[KarlHungus]

So out of state schools will be fooled into recruiting a small school state champ with a 30-10 record?  Let's get specific. Which kids THIS YEAR might get overlooked or "underrecruited" who otherwise would be recruited because they would have been a small school placewinner?  How about last year?  Let's have names!  It seems to me that we need more in-state Indiana college wrestling.

 

Who said anything about fooling?  We don't have classes so we can't say what underclassman might appear on some colleges radar precisely because they didn't advance.  It happens every year in both Michigan and Ohio though.  Kids with success earlier in their high school career get contacted by schools like Trine and Findlay.  Often times in Indiana, wrestlers don't put together a state run until their senior year and by that time it is usually too late to think about wrestling in college.  There are quality kids each year at the Calumet and LaPorte regional that never even qualify for Semi-State.  I am sure a Kannon Keigley from New Prairie or David Oviatt of LaPorte could be successful small college wrestlers.

 

Y2 says that IHSAA would handle the logistics of a multi-class state series for individual and teams.  But what does that mean?  I think it means we would kiss Conseco (and the lights) goodbye.  The "new and improved"  3-day state meet will be a glorified summer ISWA tourney.

 

I would hope it means that the IHSAA would look to Ohio and Iowa and see how they run their state finals and then copy.  Those classed state finals don't appear to be glorified ISWA tournaments.

 

The numbers in Y2's enrollment charts don't add up.  Out of 285 schools he shows a 3-class system breakdown of 103 each for the top two classes and only 79 for the bottom class.  This is a big deal because it determines the bubble teams.  With Y2's chart the smallest three teams in class 2 would be Fairfield (558), Indianapolis Washington (563) and Evansville Mater Dei (564).  It looks like Alexandria (545) is the biggest school in class 1.  I'll bet Fairfield and Alexandria didn't know they are the bubble teams!  Good for Alexandria, sucks to be Fairfield.  This is what I mean by balkanizing Indiana wrestling.  However, if the three classes are divided evenly MD would be in the small school division.  Who determined the class divisions?

 

I don't see an outcry for bubble teams in the other class sports in Indiana.  Enrollments change and bubble teams sometime are up and sometime down.  It's a fact of life.  Doesn't seem to bother those schools greatly. Divisions would be determined by enrollment just like they are in other sports.

 

Is anybody making the case for classing the catholic schools?  That way MD, Cathedral and Roncalli, etc. can be in their own little parallel universe and not beat down on the poor public schools.  As far as I know only New Jersey does this on account of Blair Academy.

 

Have not heard much about private/parochial classing.  Has been discussed in football extensively.  Not sure how that applies to this debate though.

 

Our individual and team state series are outstanding as they are.  In particular, individual state is truly something special and unduplicated almost anywhere else in the country.  The kids know its the real deal.  We see enough liberal social engineering fantasies coming out of Washington D.C. - no need to replicate it here in Indiana.

 

For someone from Portage I am sure they are.  For a school like LaVille, I am guessing they might think different.  How this debate evolved into a political discourse of liberalism vs. socialism is a mystery.  I guess I can attribute it the Limbaughization of America.  If you don't like something, you slap the liberal label to it in an effort to discredit the idea.  When Indiana went to class basketball there was no discussion of social engineering or other hot buttom labels attributed to the move.  Curious that this is the tact that some use now.  I just don't see it.

[KarlHungus]

The level that states like Illinois Pennsylvania Ohio are good recruiting pipeline because they send a lot of kids to national tourneys than indiana. College coaches go to. Fargo reno nationals places like that too see guys wrestle. Class wrestling will not determine a true champion. Md is q small school and used to send a lot of kids to state.

 

The coaches from Trine, Wabash, Findlay and Delaware Valley go to Fargo?  I haven't seen them their recruiting.

 

Just say no to class wrestling so we know who the true cut best eight guys are in each weight in the state are!

 

No we don't know who the best 8 are...no wrestle backs.  We only know the champ.  If that is the only goal for the tournament then by all means, don't change it.  If you think that state tournament series could benefit far more wrestlers and programs then it is time for a change.

[Y2CJ41]

 

The numbers in Y2's enrollment charts don't add up.  Out of 285 schools he shows a 3-class system breakdown of 103 each for the top two classes and only 79 for the bottom class.  This is a big deal because it determines the bubble teams.

Not sure where you got the 285 number since the link I posted shows 310 teams.  This year there were 309 teams in the state tournament series.  My link shows 104 teams in 1A, 103 teams in 2A and 103 teams in 3A, please work on getting facts straight... but lets not let them get in the way of personal feelings.

[army197]

Not all college coaches. But places like Iowa Minnesota Iowa state are there top ten wrestling schools

[Y2CJ41]

Not all college coaches. But places like Iowa Minnesota Iowa state are there top ten wrestling schools

Class wrestling would not make a difference for the kids going to these schools.  Andrew Howe, your brother, Reece Humphrey, etc were not top recruits because of Indiana's single class system.  They were top recruits because of national success that got them exposure to top programs.

[army197]

That's what I'm saying y2 class wrestling isn't the reason kids from other states are highly recruited. It's the national success they have

[Y2CJ41]

That's what I'm saying y2 class wrestling isn't the reason kids from other states are highly recruited. It's the national success they have

We are talking more of kids that go DII, DIII and NAIA levels where they aren't nationally known and get exposure from their participation in the state series.

[army197]

And I see some schools that go to al smith holiday dials at north mont I don't believe class wrestling would solve it just my opinion on this

[KarlHungus]

And I see some schools that go to al smith holiday dials at north mont I don't believe class wrestling would solve it just my opinion on this

 

Your not going to see many small school kids at al smith or north mont. 

[munges]

Who said anything about fooling?  We don't have classes so we can't say what underclassman might appear on some colleges radar precisely because they didn't advance.  It happens every year in both Michigan and Ohio though.  Kids with success earlier in their high school career get contacted by schools like Trine and Findlay.  Often times in Indiana, wrestlers don't put together a state run until their senior year and by that time it is usually too late to think about wrestling in college.  There are quality kids each year at the Calumet and LaPorte regional that never even qualify for Semi-State.  I am sure a Kannon Keigley from New Prairie or David Oviatt of LaPorte could be successful small college wrestlers.[/quote

 

To say we need to class so kids from small schools can make it to state earlier. How about kids at MD or Bellmont who get stuck behind some studs and do not wrestle varsity until their senior year. It is a tough break for either one. I hope wrestling, regardless  of your accomplishments, teaches you how to handle tough situations.

[army197]

I meant small colleges Karl

[pin2win1]

Here is a question.... the title of this forum is "Reasons for a class system for team state"

 

Well, how the heck to we class team state but not individual? If someone could come up with a system to do this, I'd be all for it.... I say class team, but keep the individuals classless if the system can allow it ;-)

[MattM]

Here is a question.... the title of this forum is "Reasons for a class system for team state"

 

Well, how the heck to we class team state but not individual? If someone could come up with a system to do this, I'd be all for it.... I say class team, but keep the individuals classless if the system can allow it ;-)

 

How to class a team tournament and keep an individual tournament class-less.

1. Redistrict each sectional so they have an equal number of large and small schools (or mostly equal) in a 2 class system.   It is somewhat done this way already in many sectionals so not to many major changes.  In a 3 class system you would need to divide them up by three groups of school sizes which would change some sectional around slightly to keep things event for each class size.

2. The highest large school team score moves on to the large school team tournament series.  The highest small school score (reguardless of teams actual finish) moves on to the small school team tournament.  Hold the large and small school regional team tournaments at the same time in different locations.  Hold state team finals a week after state in the same location at the same time or different locations doesn't really matter.

3. The 4 top individuals reguardless of school size move on in the individual tournament just like they do now.  

 

There the best answer I have for you in order to alter the current system without to many major changes occuring in the process or schedule.

[Y2CJ41]

Here is a question.... the title of this forum is "Reasons for a class system for team state"

 

Well, how the heck to we class team state but not individual? If someone could come up with a system to do this, I'd be all for it.... I say class team, but keep the individuals classless if the system can allow it ;-)

Even though I would rather have both classed there are ways to do a two-four class team state.  Many states have different ways of running their team state tournament.  I will make a hypothetical 3 class tournament.

 

One week tournament, three classes with 103 teams per class, meaning a 132 team bracket with 29 byes.

 

16 Sectionals with 6 or 7 teams

Wrestle three rounds down to 1 team on Tuesday night

 

4 regionals with 4 teams

Wrestle down to 1 team on Thursday night

 

4 team state representatives per class on Saturday and wrestle to a championship on 4 mats, save all three championships for the last round

 

This all could be done the week before sectional or between regional and semi-state or heck, any week you want to make it!

[BlackshirtD]

You can see the numbers anyway you want to percieve them..they are just a rorshach test,,However you see them you are right if you want to be. What I believe is this. Kids get on the map by wrestling for team indiana, or getting exposed to national tourneys. The more they get out there the more notice they get..as far as DI, I am talking. We could start a whole new arguement and start blaming Title IX for the lack of opportunities..again mostly at DI levels. The smaller schools have done a much better job of getting quality kids that weren't DI material than they used to do. Example I will use myself I had a pretty much awful record for my high school career..I weighed 152 and wrestled 171 because I couldn't beat our 152, or 160 lbers...again bad record..but freestyle I placed several times at state, and at a freestyle tourney at Wawasee that I won I was approached by the coach of Manchester and asked to come visit and take a look basically because I did well that day and had a H on my lettermans jacket..point is if you really want to wrestle in college you really can..at least walk on..small schools..Not a lot of kids want to go through it unless they are DI, and I've been seeing a lot of kids get Redshirted and hang it up at the big schools as well. My point is I cannot see how class wrestling improves our state. What I think does improve us is seeing Howe, Tsirtsis,Angel, and Reece succeed..As more kids identify with them they will want to be more like them..doing the camps, nationals..working harder to try to be them. I don't know what numbers actually back anything up, but I'd venture to say that I think Indiana is getting some pretty quality kids out there, and by the things they say on the Big 10 network talking about the massive improvement of Indiana wrestling. We were, and are like it or not seen as a basketball state, but thats a culture that can only be changed by getting out there and suceeding nationally in Fargo, and Viginia..etc. I just think the arguement being made for the classes based on the wrong idea of success. It seems like sometimes it's about Indiana exposure, and other times it's about a level playing ground for the kids..I mean which is it, and what arguement do you want me to support? I think more and more good wrestlers are coming back to coach..I mean last week it was a who's who of the past 20 yrs. at matside. As coaching evolves, and the kids learn what it takes to go to the next level then Indiana will get there. I have a buddy that that wrestled ..never made it to state, but wrestled for U Dubuque in Iowa..any rate he helped out a small school team out east..said the whole enviornment at the school was tough to deal with because the kids didn't really have the mentality of the mat being a battleground..It was just something they do..and the staff at the school..In no way demeaning to them just kinda let them carry on and didn't really push them, and it was grate to be 15-10 and one and done come sectionals. The culture at these small schools have to change..If that ever starts to happen then maybe look into classing it. I'm one of the many who are kinda on the line about the team tourney. i mean yes there are the Mater Deis to deal with, but if you must have a class team tourney some day whatever..But the individual tournament is special, and should be left alone..at least for the forseeable future, or until some one can actually put some numbers out that actually mean something. Not for nothing I admire the passion of Y2, and Karl..and I'm sure when they look at the stats it means something to them that I'm just not seeing at this point. Even if the class system never happens for you guys know that your efforts are admirable, I believe for the right reasons, and the betterment of all..I just subscribe the notion it is just change for change sake, like someone said you can't ever go back and this tournament is special..And even if the number don't prove it I think we are putting out a much improving product. Afterall it is all subjective.

[BlackshirtD]

great not grate..not sure how that even happens :-\

[TripleB]

I got buttons for sale, TAE I know you refuse to comment, but how about some pictures of buttons?

 

I also think that alot of people on both sides of the fence would be all for a classed team tournament/no class individual tournament. If we see a rise of smaller teams in terms of participation and competition, then it would shut us nay-sayers up.

[gstemv81]

Y2 - Sorry if I miscounted the teams listed in your link.  I could have sworn your third class in a 3A had 79!  I can assure you all my mistakes are accidental.    By the way, I think you have a great site and I don't mean to give you a hard time about class wrestling because its the only thing we disagree on.  I have to admit that class wrestling isn't the worst idea in the world - it's just not a great one either!  Maybe the pros are only slightly outweighed by the cons in class wrestling.  Considering that IHSAA won't treat wrestling any differently from other individual sports like track or swimming I just don't see any point in expending any energy on the idea if its not clear that its a clear improvement on the current arrangement.  What I do know is that our state series (both team and individual) is outstanding in every way, and I think the kids would agree with me.

 

Blackshirt - one heck of a post!  I hope everyone reads it.  Too many folks only have a vague notion of what the consequences of going to multi-class would be.

[Y2CJ41]

BlackshirtD,

You talk about your college experience, would you have gone to wrestle in college if Coach Jarman(I presume) did not approach you?  If you were sick that day or went to another tournament would you have wrestled in college? 

[TheAncientElder]

 

 

[BlackshirtD]

Y2,

You know I think it was pretty cool that a coach came up and spoke with me, and for some reason I don't remember his name(it's been a long time.) I want to say Troxel? or something like that was his name but he talked to me about football as well, so he may have been an assistant of some sort..but at any rate it was a positive expirience that you are right..had I wrestled in another tourney that day I would not have had the  meeting. I was no longer going to compete in wrestling, or football for that matter. Now he spoke to me about different grants that I could be qualified for and what not, but I remember from a couple other small schools that contacted me the cost of a lot of these very small schools without scholarship money is pretty costly. Point being not alot of kids may not be able to afford to compete at the small school level without more of a school commitment financially..where if they are going to financially commit more they are looking for a better product. I think looking at our small school rosters now they are littered with good talent that might be just shy of D1 level. Thats what I am talking about the evolution of it..it's been a long time so maybe my arguement loses validity about anyone who wants to wrestle in college can. I think if the state school extensions that are more affordable pick up teams then I do believe that mostr kids wanting to wrestle can still do it. I'm not sure am I answering your question? I hope I made sense.