Reasons for a class system for team state

[base]

I can't even believe I'm about to pickup the bat and beat this dead horse again, but I just can't resist.

 

My position:  Go to a class system for the team state championship.  Remain a single-class system for the individual state championship.

 

 

Comments:  I think one of the reasons this argument has carried on for such a long time is that there are several "goals" being thrown around, being intermixed, and all confused.  Begin with the team vs. individual championships being classed.  Half of the arguments presented seem to me like they apply to one, but not necessarily the other.  Also, what is the goal -- producing higher quality wrestlers within the state, or producing a system that will allow a greater number of wrestlers to pursue wrestling in college?  Both?  I think each goal should be treated separately, because they may have different answers.

 

IF the goal is to produce higher quality wrestlers within the state, then again I will say that any changes to the high school system would not have as great effect as intervention at the youth level.

 

If you want to see the future state champions, go the ISWA Folkstyle state tournament this weekend and next.  Go to the Middle School state championship next year.  Their success is not determined by what size high school they will attend in the future.  Ask yourself what has helped to make these kids so good.  The young men winning state this year likely had MANY fundmentals and skills built up before they ever stepped on the high school team.  My GUESS is that you could take a look at any highly successful high school wrestling program and find a first-class feeder program.

 

If you are at a small high school and you want to produce more quality wrestlers, recruit at the youth level, get these kids into good youth clubs, work with them to get more mat time throughout the year (including summer).  If your area doesn't have a good youth club nearby, work with the middle or high school wrestling coaches to start one -- recruit past successful wrestlers from the area to come in and give back to the kids.  Kids will get involved, and they will produce quality wrestlers -- regardless of what size high school they attend.  There are good youth programs scattered all over the state of Indiana -- Red Cobra, CIA, Humphrey, Boiler Elite, Hoosier Elite, Contenders, etc.  As far as I know, these clubs are open to kids from ANY school district.

 

My opinion is that if you want to change the quality of Indiana wrestling, this is the 'sweet spot' for improvement, not division of the high school teams based on size.

[duck_and_run]

Small school state would be a joke. If your school is bad in the current system your going to be bad afterwards.  Karl that goes for you.  It doesn't promote anything but a new level of dominance just like Ohio.  The same teams win the tournement every single year.  Just like they would in Indiana.  Y2 you can't bs this.  Matre Dei is down the past 2 seasons and they still would walk all over the small school tournement.  Yorktown has a program going on now too so if they stay in the small school be prepared for several state championships Yorktown vs Matre Dei.  Sounds fun doesn't it.

[Y2CJ41]

Small school state would be a joke. If your school is bad in the current system your going to be bad afterwards.  Karl that goes for you.  It doesn't promote anything but a new level of dominance just like Ohio.  The same teams win the tournement every single year.  Just like they would in Indiana.  Y2 you can't bs this.  Matre Dei is down the past 2 seasons and they still would walk all over the small school tournement.  Yorktown has a program going on now too so if they stay in the small school be prepared for several state championships Yorktown vs Matre Dei.  Sounds fun doesn't it.

Again you are wrong, here are the 1A potential state championship matches this year

103

A- Phillips vs. Petrov

112

A- Kendle vs. Gilbert

119

A- Bradley vs. Lovejoy

125

A- Raley vs. Bevans

130-

Jackson vs. ??

135

A- Hiestand vs. Waite

140-

A- Martin vs.

145

A- Sims vs. Sampson

152-

A- Lynde vs. Richey

160

A- McCray vs. Reese

171-

A- Stein vs. Duckworth

189

A- Atwood vs. Scott

215

A- Froelich vs. Grubb

285-

A- Janney vs. West

 

As far as the teams are concerned it is no different than in football or any other team classed event, the cream will always rise to the top. 

[duck_and_run]

Nice list a shame you don't find those kids good enough to wrestle against the big schools. 

[Y2CJ41]

I can't even believe I'm about to pickup the bat and beat this dead horse again, but I just can't resist.

 

My position:  Go to a class system for the team state championship.  Remain a single-class system for the individual state championship.

 

 

Comments:  I think one of the reasons this argument has carried on for such a long time is that there are several "goals" being thrown around, being intermixed, and all confused.  Begin with the team vs. individual championships being classed.  Half of the arguments presented seem to me like they apply to one, but not necessarily the other.  Also, what is the goal -- producing higher quality wrestlers within the state, or producing a system that will allow a greater number of wrestlers to pursue wrestling in college?  Both?  I think each goal should be treated separately, because they may have different answers.

 

IF the goal is to produce higher quality wrestlers within the state, then again I will say that any changes to the high school system would not have as great effect as intervention at the youth level.

 

If you want to see the future state champions, go the ISWA Folkstyle state tournament this weekend and next.  Go to the Middle School state championship next year.  Their success is not determined by what size high school they will attend in the future.  Ask yourself what has helped to make these kids so good.  The young men winning state this year likely had MANY fundmentals and skills built up before they ever stepped on the high school team.  My GUESS is that you could take a look at any highly successful high school wrestling program and find a first-class feeder program.

 

If you are at a small high school and you want to produce more quality wrestlers, recruit at the youth level, get these kids into good youth clubs, work with them to get more mat time throughout the year (including summer).  If your area doesn't have a good youth club nearby, work with the middle or high school wrestling coaches to start one -- recruit past successful wrestlers from the area to come in and give back to the kids.  Kids will get involved, and they will produce quality wrestlers -- regardless of what size high school they attend.  There are good youth programs scattered all over the state of Indiana -- Red Cobra, CIA, Humphrey, Boiler Elite, Hoosier Elite, Contenders, etc.  As far as I know, these clubs are open to kids from ANY school district.

 

My opinion is that if you want to change the quality of Indiana wrestling, this is the 'sweet spot' for improvement, not division of the high school teams based on size.

There are many small schools with youth programs, we had one at Garrett when I was in high school and it did nothing for our high school program.  There is only so much orange juice you can get out of an orange.  

 

As far as the team portion goes, I feel classing both will have a greater impact sooner than just the team side.  Right now the team state tournament in all honesty is for about 15-20 teams statewide or about 6.5% of the teams.  If we go to three classes that rises to about 20%.  Classing just the team side won't affect 70% of the teams in the state at least.  What good does that do for the sport?  If we class the individual side, all 100% of the teams are affected as they will get more state qualifiers and kids closer to the state finals.

[Y2CJ41]

Nice list a shame you don't find those kids good enough to wrestle against the big schools. 

Who said they weren't good enough to wrestle against the big schools?  That is what in season meets are for. 

[duck_and_run]

Yeah 140 is that Martin from Randolph Southern whos team isn't good enough to get invited to big meets?  Oh yeah wheres his compitition?  There are tons of individuals with weak teams that can't get competition during the season that you hurt.

 

Yeah you effect 100% of the schools by classing the individual side.  You effect 100% of the individuals in a negative way.  Niether side will have as much competition.  Many individuals only have the state tournement for serious competition.  You take away from those teams and individuals. 

[Y2CJ41]

Many kids now only get serious competition at state, what is the difference?

 

You put Josh Martin in a room at a school like Lawrence North and with his work ethic and desire he is a two-time place winner instead of a two-time qualifier.  Just like his brother is having a decent career at Purdue when he gets into a solid room with good coaching.

[duck_and_run]

Same thing with Matre Dei or Yorktown.  Put him in there rooms and he has equal that success. 

[Y2CJ41]

Same thing with Matre Dei or Yorktown.  Put him in there rooms and he has equal that success. 

And your point being?  Oh wait, I know.  You can find a couple good small school teams.... I forgot. 

[AJ]

with good coaching.

 

I hope that wasn't a jab at his coaches

[Y2CJ41]

I hope that wasn't a jab at his coaches

I would hope that a Big 10 coaching staff is better than a coaching staff at Randolph Southern.  If not, then someone is underachieving.

[Y2CJ41]

You effect 100% of the individuals in a negative way. 

The last time I checked having more state qualifiers has affect the Garrett program in a positive manner.  No way we would be where we are right now without consistently taking kids to Conseco.

[bigdanteague]

Small school state would be a joke. If your school is bad in the current system your going to be bad afterwards.  Karl that goes for you.  It doesn't promote anything but a new level of dominance just like Ohio.  The same teams win the tournement every single year.  Just like they would in Indiana.  Y2 you can't bs this.  Matre Dei is down the past 2 seasons and they still would walk all over the small school tournement.  Yorktown has a program going on now too so if they stay in the small school be prepared for several state championships Yorktown vs Matre Dei.  Sounds fun doesn't it.

 

You don't need to compete for state championships to help build a program.  Competing for a sectional is enough to generate interests at many small schools.  Duck, that goes for U!!!

[BlueBolt]

I still have to hold on to the belief that the sport of Wrestling is based not on the numbers and more on the desire of the individual.

 

Let's face it, if somehow every school in the state was EXACTLY the same size and each team had exactly the same number of Wrestlers, who would win the state title?

 

  The Team That Put The Most Effort Into It.  Thus the argument of the "Have's Versus The Have Nots" just doesn't hold up when you boil it all down.  It's about the effort and frankly the gifts the athletes bring to the table.  Look at a school like Princeton Community.  The have a long tradition of quality Wrestling.  They have produced multiple State Champions and Placers.  I know of no team that looks at a Dual with the Princeton Tigers as a walk over.

 

Yet they are no where NEAR the size of the schools around the Evansville area.  Much respect to the Princeton Wrestling community.  They have a long standing tradition of putting tough teams on the mat, I also use them as an example because they are in fact a PUBLIC SCHOOL.  The same can be said for Mt Vernon (Posey County) and Jasper.  Heritage Hills High School has produced some darned fine teams in the realitively short existence of their program (by comparison) and frequently can be found pounding the day lights out of other teams that have over looked them.

 

So here is the true question...Why SHOULD WE HAVE CLASS WRESTLING when the sport is based on the efforts, the desire, and the abilities of the individuals?  Sure a school of 1,500 would POSSIBLY have more kids in the wrestling room, but trust me it is FAR from a given.  Wrestlers don't travel in packs...They travel alone and gravitate to the one place they can Wrestle.  How many of these walk the halls of each school?  Well that depends on the individuals now doesn't it?

 

 

 

 

 

[pin2win1]

No Blue Bolt no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now you are going to may Y2 go around crying because someone said that he and his kids just don't work hard enough and have the desire to win. Now he is going to throw a pity party and say "i guess we just don't work hard enough"

 

Fact is, wrestling is an odd sport, it is individual as well as a team sport. I love the fact that we have a state tournament series that accentuates these two aspects of wrestling. That being said, some schools are at a disadvantage when it comes to the team aspect. Some schools do not have the numbers to be as deep as other teams and therefore they do not have a shot at winning team state.

 

Now individually you are for the most part going to be as good as you want to be despite the size of your school. Sure if you go to a good wrestling school (large or small) you will have some great practice partners that can help you suceed. But there are 9 other months thoughout the year where you can go and practice with others of your choosing, or go to tournaments of your choosing, or go to camps of your choosing. This is all up to the individual and their families. Sure you may have to choose to not participate as much in other sporting events, but life is about choices, it is about choosing what you want and what you think is best for yourself.

[BlueBolt]

No Blue Bolt no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now you are going to may Y2 go around crying because someone said that he and his kids just don't work hard enough and have the desire to win. Now he is going to throw a pity party and say "i guess we just don't work hard enough"

 

Fact is, wrestling is an odd sport, it is individual as well as a team sport. I love the fact that we have a state tournament series that accentuates these two aspects of wrestling. That being said, some schools are at a disadvantage when it comes to the team aspect. Some schools do not have the numbers to be as deep as other teams and therefore they do not have a shot at winning team state.

 

Now individually you are for the most part going to be as good as you want to be despite the size of your school. Sure if you go to a good wrestling school (large or small) you will have some great practice partners that can help you suceed. But there are 9 other months thoughout the year where you can go and practice with others of your choosing, or go to tournaments of your choosing, or go to camps of your choosing. This is all up to the individual and their families. Sure you may have to choose to not participate as much in other sporting events, but life is about choices, it is about choosing what you want and what you think is best for yourself.

 

And the other side of the "We didn't work hard enough" load of crap is this...Do you HONESTLY think kids in the larger schools are busting thier butts everyday just as hard?  It's a rather offensive statement - and honestly rather cowardly - to say we can't win because we don't have this or that...Wrestling is based of the simple concept of two people, one ref, a wrestling surface, and an outcome.  There are no excuses...Only Winners and Losers...I have lost in my life to kids from "small schools" and even to those mean jerks at "Large Schools"  But the loss was still just one loss - the same as my victories came one at at time.    You see when you are on the mat - No one REALLY cares about the crying and the excuses...It's all about doing your vrey best and overcoming what is being thrown at you.

 

 

 

[outsidersview]

The class system has all but destroyed the once unique and great Indiana High School Basketball phenomenon.

YES

[BlueBolt]

Like I have said...if it gets our kids on the mat more...i am all for it...I just don't want to hear all the whinning and crying about it.  It belittles the sport and those who compete to sit here and make excuses when the entire principle of the sport if Maximum Effort and Hard Work.

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

The class system has all but destroyed the once unique and great Indiana High School Basketball phenomenon.

What is your reasoning for this statement?

[Y2CJ41]

No Blue Bolt no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Now you are going to may Y2 go around crying because someone said that he and his kids just don't work hard enough and have the desire to win. Now he is going to throw a pity party and say "i guess we just don't work hard enough"

 

Fact is, wrestling is an odd sport, it is individual as well as a team sport. I love the fact that we have a state tournament series that accentuates these two aspects of wrestling. That being said, some schools are at a disadvantage when it comes to the team aspect. Some schools do not have the numbers to be as deep as other teams and therefore they do not have a shot at winning team state.

 

Now individually you are for the most part going to be as good as you want to be despite the size of your school. Sure if you go to a good wrestling school (large or small) you will have some great practice partners that can help you suceed. But there are 9 other months thoughout the year where you can go and practice with others of your choosing, or go to tournaments of your choosing, or go to camps of your choosing. This is all up to the individual and their families. Sure you may have to choose to not participate as much in other sporting events, but life is about choices, it is about choosing what you want and what you think is best for yourself.

Well you obviously have been following this topic for quite a while.  To say that kids qualify for state based off hard work, dedication, determination, and all that fun stuff is fine, I do agree to a point.  However, if you want to say this, I have to ask, do small kids just lack work ethic, dedication, and determination?  If they do not, which I feel they do not, then there is something else that makes it more likely that a bigger school wrestler qualifies for state. 

 

Your tirade about making choices is fine, but you must realize that it is a different dynamic at a small school.  One or two kids being single sport athletes is fine, but when 10-20 kids start only participating in one sport it hurts the ENTIRE athletic program.  You cannot have a small school athletic program without having multiple sport athletes.  If all the teams don't share their athletes, my stud wrestler doesn't have any practice partners other than his fat out of shape 30 year old coach.  At a big school, when you horde athletes, there are five others that can step into that position walking the halls. 

 

People really do not understand the differences unless you have seen them first hand.  I can tell you close to 100% of the coaches that have been at both a small and big school understand the different dynamics between the schools and are in favor of class wrestling because of it.

[outsidersview]

Well you obviously have been following this topic for quite a while.  To say that kids qualify for state based off hard work, dedication, determination, and all that fun stuff is fine, I do agree to a point.  However, if you want to say this, I have to ask, do small kids just lack work ethic, dedication, and determination?  If they do not, which I feel they do not, then there is something else that makes it more likely that a bigger school wrestler qualifies for state. 

 

Your tirade about making choices is fine, but you must realize that it is a different dynamic at a small school.  One or two kids being single sport athletes is fine, but when 10-20 kids start only participating in one sport it hurts the ENTIRE athletic program.  You cannot have a small school athletic program without having multiple sport athletes.  If all the teams don't share their athletes, my stud wrestler doesn't have any practice partners other than his fat out of shape 30 year old coach.  At a big school, when you horde athletes, there are five others that can step into that position walking the halls. 

 

People really do not understand the differences unless you have seen them first hand.  I can tell you close to 100% of the coaches that have been at both a small and big school understand the different dynamics between the schools and are in favor of class wrestling because of it.

Answer me this, How in the world did Mater Dei do it then? They are THE prime example to show for. 

[pin2win1]

Your tirade about making choices is fine, but you must realize that it is a different dynamic at a small school.  One or two kids being single sport athletes is fine, but when 10-20 kids start only participating in one sport it hurts the ENTIRE athletic program.  You cannot have a small school athletic program without having multiple sport athletes.  If all the teams don't share their athletes, my stud wrestler doesn't have any practice partners other than his fat out of shape 30 year old coach.  At a big school, when you horde athletes, there are five others that can step into that position walking the halls.

 

First off, i would not call it a tirade..... just making an observation from life and sharing it with others.... It's not like I have a ton of wisdm, just sharing what little i have. ;-)

 

Secondly, Small Schools and Big Schools alike have the issue of having kids playing more than 1 sport. When I was at Mishawaka we had approx 1600 kids and we were a ranked team both years I was on varsity. Yet I would say that almost 75 percent of our varsity line up was involved in other sports and that is being conservative, Heck everyone outside our 103 and 112 were probably multi sport athletes and most of us were football players.

 

Fact is, all schools have issues with multi sport athletes whether big or small.

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

Answer me this, How in the world did Mater Dei do it then? They are THE prime example to show for.  

When comparing Mater Dei to a public school of the same size there is no comparison to the quality of kids at each school.  If you don't realize when each family is paying at least $4,200 a year to go there, it means quite a difference when you compare it to a public school where 40% of the students are on free or reduced lunches, then I really can't get too far with this subject.  When a public 2A school has the run they did, then you can ask "how they did it."  Most people accept that parochial and private schools are different animals when compared to their public counterparts.

 

How they have accomplished their prestige is through an extensive youth program and lots of parental support at each level.  

[Y2CJ41]

First off, i would not call it a tirade..... just making an observation from life and sharing it with others.... It's not like I have a ton of wisdm, just sharing what little i have. ;-)

 

Secondly, Small Schools and Big Schools alike have the issue of having kids playing more than 1 sport. When I was at Mishawaka we had approx 1600 kids and we were a ranked team both years I was on varsity. Yet I would say that almost 75 percent of our varsity line up was involved in other sports and that is being conservative, Heck everyone outside our 103 and 112 were probably multi sport athletes and most of us were football players.

 

Fact is, all schools have issues with multi sport athletes whether big or small.

 

 

Lets put it this way, there is a difference in playing a fall sport and playing a spring sport.  Do you agree? 

 

How many were three sport athletes?  How many played a spring sport?  I know at Garrett, 11 of our 14 starters are 3 sport athletes.  The other three play a fall sport.  Including our JV, which would be another seven wrestlers, four are three sport athletes and the other three are single sport athletes.  I believeI guarantee no 3A or higher wrestling team has those types of numbers.