Chesterton coach suspended

[friendofrunningwriter]

Surprised there hasn't been much talk about this.

 

News story:

 

http://nwitimes.com/sports/columnists/jim-peters/article_8d692b15-d9a0-5cc1-abfd-35334eec2814.html

[bigdanteague]

Wrestling Coach's Dirty Little Secret=no discussion

[AJ]

It was brought up a few weeks ago, but no major discussion took place.

[Zen_Wrestler]

This rule violation happens in nearly every room of the state.  It makes no difference if a wrestler loses 6% or 1.75%... still a violation.

[bigdanteague]

This rule violation happens in nearly every room of the state.  It makes no difference if a wrestler loses 6% or 1.75%... still a violation.

 

And will likely continue to happen until kids start missing sectionals.  But precedent has been set with the coach being suspended so the practice will probably continue.

[Sinker1]

 

  It would be a good bet that the 1.5% violations would be very common around the state. Most would come from weigh-ins after a wrestler bumped up a weight for a dual, or maybe after an individual illness. Violations from the alpha weight would be less common.

  On another discussion topic, someone called this coach suspension a slap on the wrist....This punishment is very severe, when you consider the importance that Coach Joll (and most all good coaches) place on this time of the season.

  Before throwing stones,  anyone posting should take a close look at their own school's weigh-in record.

  It is fortunate  that the Chesterton wrestlers have Jason Cook on staff to lead the program in the interim.

   

[formerwrestler]

I agree.  What is a coach supposed to do if the kid looses too much weight in a week?  The coach usually only spends 1.5-2 hours per day with the wrestlers, but he is supposed to ensure every kid only looses 1.5% max per week?  That is the plan, but the coach is not with the kids 24 hours a day. 

 

 

[SeanMcMurray]

I think Jason Cook has been around a lot of great coaches and it has really rubbed off on him..  He and the other Chesterton coaches have acted very professional and passionate in this post season.

[Y2CJ41]

The deaths weren't caused by creatine, that is a myth that is not true.  It was caused by really drastic measures to make weight since you could weigh in the night before, therefore wrestlers were cutting more weight since they had more time to recover.

[AJ]

 On another discussion topic, someone called this coach suspension a slap on the wrist....This punishment is very severe, when you consider the importance that Coach Joll (and most all good coaches) place on this time of the season.

 

I disagree. I believe the punishment is a slap on the wrist.  The assistant coaches are in the room and can handle the Saturdays.  It may sting for the head coach, but the wrestler did not really recieve any consequences and neither did the program.   Coaches miss part of the tournament series for various violations, so this is nothing new.

 

 

For the record:   I disagree with the rule, but a rule is a rule.  

[B Campbell]

Coach Joll has done a good thing by not complaining about the rule or the suspension, but instead coming up with a solution to the problem that he is willing to share with everyone.  Great job being proactive and positive Chris!!!

[phscoach]

I'll speak on it if for no other reason that I really could care less what the state thinks of my opinion anyway.  They've proven time after time that one coach's opinion won't change anything.

 

This is my frustration with our weight program.  As a new coach coming in a few years ago, I was greeted with all of this information and no one true concrete resource to go to for guidance in making sure my program is in compliance.  I obviously read everything that was included from the state and even talk to one of the rules interpreters for his view of the program.  I looked through the NWCA information that was included in their portion of the program.  I asked other coaches.  At no time did I get a consistent answer.

 

This inconsistency is what is killing the situation.  Coaches are being asked to follow a set of rules that honestly seem to change at the will of the assistant commissioner.  The rule on the recording sheet reads as follows:

 

As per Rule 1-3-2 of the NFHS Wrestling Rule Book, state associations that have hydration and body-fat testing along with a program to monitor an average weight loss of 1 ? % a week, with descent, may use the minimum weight determined by the body-fat testing as the lowest weight a wrestler may wrestle during the state series instead of at least ? of their weigh-ins during the seasonas stated in Rule 1-3-2 b.

 

This phrase opens up all sorts of interpretations, even if our assistant commissioner fails to acknowledge that fact.  I personally read that at the time to mean that as long as my wrestler averages no more than 1.5% weight lost per week, that we are in compliance.  I could have a kid cut 5 pounds between weigh-ins as long as at the end of the season, he only lost an average of 1.5% per week.  Then I see that is is to be no more than 1.5% per week, regardless of the season total loss.  It is recalculated each week by the weight loss program.  Then I see that it is recalulated after each weigh-in.  That would make sense I guess, but then you would have to calculate a daily weight loss average, not a weekly number.  It would be funny if I hadn't seen that three coaches I asked each ran their paperwork a different way, one each for the above described ways.

 

I am not looking to get anyone in trouble by Bobby Cox, but if there is enough of a confusion for me, then I can bet that there is another coach in the state with the same questions.  Now, I understand that at least on some level, we as coaches like that gray area so that we have room to protect our wrestlers from missing matches or the state tournament.  But I think at some point we need someone in leadership (IHSAA or IHSWCA I don't honestly care who) to figure out the exact way to run this program. We can do it effectively if there is communication from the top and things are clearly defined.  I don't like coaches having to keep all these records any more than the next guy, but if it's what I have to do to enter my kids into the state tournament, then it will be done.  This seems like a shell of a weight program.  We as a state say we are doing all these things to look like we're protecting these young people from dangerous weight loss, but we all know on some level that that statement isn't worth the paper it it printed on.  There is no accountability except for other coaches.  Sometimes other coaches sit on information just to pull it out at a seeding meeting and get their way.  To me, who are you hurting?  We are in this for the kids (I would hope) so let's make sure we don't screw someone else's kid for personal gain.  But the opportunity still exists because we don't have anyone watching to make sure.

 

I have a real problem with penalties being handed out with this much gray area involved.  A coach is suspended.  Fair enough, but will it stop it from happening again on his team?  Would it have been addressed if the wrestler in question was a freshman with a 6-20 record?  What is the IHSAA doing to monitor the situation?  People call it a slap on the wrist because the kid still gets to compete, but they need to look at the fact that the other members of that team didn't have their head coach present for them to compete in the state tournament either.  That to me is the greater punishment.

 

I don't support blatant cheating.  Not a big fan of it.  So those blatant situations deserve punishment.  But until we get a system where someone besides the head coaches are in charge of monitoring the situation, it's going to happen every day.  I may be totally off-base, but I'm tired of the mixed signals from the state offices.

[Y2CJ41]

From the research I have done, I think at least one of the wrestlers were not using creatine and one had stopped when the season started.

[Coach Peck]

I think that the thing we need to emphasize is that wrestling is a safe sport.  If we take High School Wrestling and look at the number of deathes that have occurred during practice, or competition, in the past 40-50 years I believe the number is zero.  Almost every year kids die while practicing/playing Football (it is the same in other sports as well).  Kids go out to Practice football in 90+ degree heat, and high humidity, with full equipment on and lose big amounts of weight due to dehydration.  If they are lucky they have just one practice, but if they have two they come back before they have properly rehydrated and do it again.  I think the move away from "plastics" was a good one, but I do not think, even when we used plastics, we ever took a kid and put them in a 90+ degree room, with 90 percent hunidity, and practiced them for two hours as if they were in football. Which is most dangerous....the wrestler losing 5-10 pounds over the course of a week or the football player losing 10-15 pounds in a practice.  I am not trying to knock football, but what I am saying is that we (wrestling) get a bad rapp while others are not even regulated.  The IHSAA has regualtions and rules for Wrestling while they have suggestions for football and other sports. 

[frigginhurts]

I think that the thing we need to emphasize is that wrestling is a safe sport.  If we take High School Wrestling and look at the number of deathes that have occurred during practice, or competition, in the past 40-50 years I believe the number is zero.   Almost every year kids die while practicing/playing Football (it is the same in other sports as well).  Kids go out to Practice football in 90+ degree heat, and high humidity, with full equipment on and lose big amounts of weight due to dehydration.  If they are lucky they have just one practice, but if they have two they come back before they have properly rehydrated and do it again.  I think the move away from "plastics" was a good one, but I do not think, even when we used plastics, we ever took a kid and put them in a 90+ degree room, with 90 percent hunidity, and practiced them for two hours as if they were in football. Which is most dangerous....the wrestler losing 5-10 pounds over the course of a week or the football player losing 10-15 pounds in a practice.   I am not trying to knock football, but what I am saying is that we (wrestling) get a bad rapp while others are not even regulated.  The IHSAA has regualtions and rules for Wrestling while they have suggestions for football and other sports. 

 

Very well said.  Maybe if a football player loses more than 1.5% of his weight in a week he should be suspended.

[LittleGiant91]

PHS coach,

I totally agree. The "weight loss plan" is convoluted and confusing. In fact, on the online rules meeting this year, there was an example showing a weigh in sheet for one date and another for a date where the kid had lost more than 1.5% in a week.  It clearly stated that the wrestler was NOT ineligible, but this was not a qualifying weigh in. From that example, it is easy to believe that Coach Joll   (or any other coach that this happened to) might have thought that it was not illegal for the athlete to weigh in that much lighter, but simply that it did not count toward his qualifying weigh ins.  The rule (or it's ever-changing interpretation) is very confusing.  Personally, I feel that the old rule of having to make a weight for half of your total weigh ins (with a minimum of 5 at that weight) was a better way to insure that kids are keeping their weight regulated.  

 

Here's another thought: When all of this weight control started after the deaths 10-12 years ago, my former college coach told me " the only way to stop weight cutting is to put a scale next to the scoring table and have the wrestlers step on it as they check in and make weight in their full uniform."  It may sound crazy, but he's right! Adjust all of the weights 5 pounds higher to account for a uniform. No wrestler in his right mind would step on the mat to compete if he was dehydrated or hadn't eaten in two days! Thus, if one really wanted to drop a weight class, the way to do it would be to eat healthier and exercise more so you could make that weight fully hydrated. With today's technology and portable scales, it is becoming a more viable option.  I say let's try it!

 

[frigginhurts]

PHS coach,

I totally agree. The "weight loss plan" is convoluted and confusing. In fact, on the online rules meeting this year, there was an example showing a weigh in sheet for one date and another for a date where the kid had lost more than 1.5% in a week.  It clearly stated that the wrestler was NOT ineligible, but this was not a qualifying weigh in. From that example, it is easy to believe that Coach Joll   (or any other coach that this happened to) might have thought that it was not illegal for the athlete to weigh in that much lighter, but simply that it did not count toward his qualifying weigh ins.  The rule (or it's ever-changing interpretation) is very confusing.  Personally, I feel that the old rule of having to make a weight for half of your total weigh ins (with a minimum of 5 at that weight) was a better way to insure that kids are keeping their weight regulated.  

 

Here's another thought: When all of this weight control started after the deaths 10-12 years ago, my former college coach told me " the only way to stop weight cutting is to put a scale next to the scoring table and have the wrestlers step on it as they check in and make weight in their full uniform."  It may sound crazy, but he's right! Adjust all of the weights 5 pounds higher to account for a uniform. No wrestler in his right mind would step on the mat to compete if he was dehydrated or hadn't eaten in two days! Thus, if one really wanted to drop a weight class, the way to do it would be to eat healthier and exercise more so you could make that weight fully hydrated. With today's technology and portable scales, it is becoming a more viable option.  I say let's try it!

 

 

it wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Merlyn]

it wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

Sounds like a good idea, until you really think about it.  How would it work in tournaments?  Would you only weigh in in the morning, or before every match?  It couldn't be before every match, because the human body naturally fluctuates around 5 pounds a day.  Also, what happens if you are really thirsty after a match and you have another one in a couple hours?  You wouldn't be able to drink that much because your body is not going to process it and flush it out before the next match.  A bottle of water weighs over a pound itself.  There were sometimes when I would guzzle 2-3 pounds of water after a match.  Therefore, in tournaments a wrester would be faced with a choice: either don't drink or eat anything between matches or do and then have to cut weight before your next match.  I do think the idea would work well in single dual meets, though. 

[frigginhurts]

Sounds like a good idea, until you really think about it.  How would it work in tournaments?  Would you only weigh in in the morning, or before every match?  It couldn't be before every match, because the human body naturally fluctuates around 5 pounds a day.  Also, what happens if you are really thirsty after a match and you have another one in a couple hours?  You wouldn't be able to drink that much because your body is not going to process it and flush it out before the next match.  A bottle of water weighs over a pound itself.  There were sometimes when I would guzzle 2-3 pounds of water after a match.  Therefore, in tournaments a wrester would be faced with a choice: either don't drink or eat anything between matches or do and then have to cut weight before your next match.  I do think the idea would work well in single dual meets, though. 

 

if you aren't cutting ANY weight your body probably wouldn't fluctuate 5 pounds.  and if it does you better be wrestling the weight class that is at the top of your fluctuation.

[H-Brecht27]

It really sucks to lose your head coach for the post-season during your senior year. Especially when Chesterton got close to winning the sectional again.

This wasn't talked about alot for a reason.

[Merlyn]

if you aren't cutting ANY weight your body probably wouldn't fluctuate 5 pounds.  and if it does you better be wrestling the weight class that is at the top of your fluctuation.

 

Yes it will.  What do you think happens when you eat food, drink water, and go to the bathroom?  

[chambers]

if you aren't cutting ANY weight your body probably wouldn't fluctuate 5 pounds.  and if it does you better be wrestling the weight class that is at the top of your fluctuation.

 

At the start of the season my team was going to Mt. Vernon for a two day tournament the two days after Thanksgiving. My 103lber weighed 96lbs on the day we did the skinfold test. He started 7 pounds under the lowest weight. He missed 3 days of school because he was sick with the H1N1 flu. When he can back he was down to 90lbs. I did not take him to the first tournament because he was under the lowest weight he was allowed to go (92lbs). Sometimes kids get sick and their weight will fluctuate a lot even if they are not trying to cut weight.

[frigginhurts]

Yes it will.  What do you think happens when you eat food, drink water, and go to the bathroom?  

 

you may be right but i don't think my body has fluctuated 5 pounds when i'm at my natural weight.

[awood1]

Sounds like a good idea, until you really think about it.  How would it work in tournaments?  Would you only weigh in in the morning, or before every match?  It couldn't be before every match, because the human body naturally fluctuates around 5 pounds a day.  Also, what happens if you are really thirsty after a match and you have another one in a couple hours?  You wouldn't be able to drink that much because your body is not going to process it and flush it out before the next match.  A bottle of water weighs over a pound itself.  There were sometimes when I would guzzle 2-3 pounds of water after a match.  Therefore, in tournaments a wrester would be faced with a choice: either don't drink or eat anything between matches or do and then have to cut weight before your next match.  I do think the idea would work well in single dual meets, though. 

 

OOORRRR...they could avoid the whole "thirsty" thing and stop dehydrating themselves!?! It COULD be done in ANY tournament....you CHOSE to not agree because you assume that a kid is losing weight to wrestle.

[awood1]

Yes it will.  What do you think happens when you eat food, drink water, and go to the bathroom?  

 

Believe me, I know...a GALLON of pee weighs 8lbs (go ahead and TRY to fill a 1/2 gallon jug withn a 24 hr. period) It is much faster (and possible) to lose a gallon of liquid sweating then it is peeing and isn't that what we are trying to discourage by the rule (i.e. dehydration?) 

 

Y2's "research" may prove my scientific hypothesis wrong, but I don't believe that any wrestler EVER died of starvation?  :