Team State Champion

[Disco]

Since we know class team is not in the IHSAA's near future plans.

This is really for discussion. After experiencing both old and new systems of determining team state champions, I think it needs to be readdressed. I personally, as a spectator along with15% of Indiana teams, like the excitement of teams vying for the championship in this now tournament.But do coaches and wrestlers of 85% of the schools in Indiana see it the same way? Chances of s small school winning the team state in the old tournament is at least a ray of light in the horizon.

[SlickRodz]

I know that wrestling is a team sport, but an individual wrestles alone. I see too much disadvantage for the individuals that are still competing on the State level. Having to make weight mid-week, risk injury and prepare for the individual match-up makes the new system one I do not favor.

 

I do enjoy the highly competitive duals at the state level. I all so do not have the answer to the problem, but to have a team in the state competition and an individual still in the state tourney makes for problems.

 

 

 

[Y2CJ41]

The dual state championship series shows which school has the best 14 guys and is best for determining who the best team is.  That you cannot question one iota, the bad thing is the team tournament is basically only for about 20 teams in the state.  The other 290 teams really have very little shot to make it to team state.  Many people on here could probably predict 6-8 of the team state finalists before the season even starts. 

 

I have only been to one team state finals and loved the atmosphere and everything about it.  Being in the CG gym with the fans so close to the action and the chanting and cheering.  It is more exciting than the individual finals because every match means something to everyone.

 

With that said, the team state tournament is very much catered to bigger schools.  For a small school to make it, many different variables must fall in place at the right time.  Kids all must be separated by 5ish pounds and have 14 that are all solid.  On top of that no one can get hurt or in trouble and on top of that you need to match up well against the competition in your regional.  If one of these variables fails, the team's chances go down immensely, not only to possibly make it to team state, but to win your sectional.  From a small school perspective, you strive for the goal of reaching team state, but realize that the chance might come along once every 10-20 years for that perfect team to be assembled. 

[Disco]

I think we agree on all points here . My ray of light I was talking about is

' the once in twenty years" for this system we have now. The ray of light in the old setup would be "once in 4-6 years". You could have 2 or 3 great wrestlers surrounded by a lot of middle of the road wrestlers and still maybe place in the old system. Now You need VERY GOOD wrestlers to surround the 2-3 GREAT boys to get into the finals. Not to many schools that are average size can even field full teams. Let alone have "very good" at each weight.

[Disco]

Yea. I guess keep things as they are ,Team state is for the top 15% of the schools. It's not for  The Deltas, the New Havens , The Chesterton's, the Jennings county schools they need to stay in the background  Because they only have a few great boys and not a full team. And have no real chance at a placement in the team  championship .

[chambers]

The dual state championship series shows which school has the best 14 guys and is best for determining who the best team is.  That you cannot question one iota, the bad thing is the team tournament is basically only for about 20 teams in the state.  The other 290 teams really have very little shot to make it to team state.  Many people on here could probably predict 6-8 of the team state finalists before the season even starts. 

 

I have only been to one team state finals and loved the atmosphere and everything about it.  Being in the CG gym with the fans so close to the action and the chanting and cheering.  It is more exciting than the individual finals because every match means something to everyone.

 

With that said, the team state tournament is very much catered to bigger schools.  For a small school to make it, many different variables must fall in place at the right time.  Kids all must be separated by 5ish pounds and have 14 that are all solid.  On top of that no one can get hurt or in trouble and on top of that you need to match up well against the competition in your regional.  If one of these variables fails, the team's chances go down immensely, not only to possibly make it to team state, but to win your sectional.  From a small school perspective, you strive for the goal of reaching team state, but realize that the chance might come along once every 10-20 years for that perfect team to be assembled. 

 

Evansville Mater Dei is a small school. They are 2A in all the sports that are classed.

[Y2CJ41]

Evansville Mater Dei is a small school. They are 2A in all the sports that are classed.

Mater Dei is a parochial school, their 500ish students are not equal to the students at a public school the same size.  No public school in the state has a 99% graduation rate, 98% average attendance, or have 91% enter two or four year schools after graduation.  When you can find me a public high school with those stats,  I will proudly call Mater Dei a small school.  Until then, they are not considered a small school.

[coops99]

The more that I see about a classed system I seem to warm up to the idea, I love the individual just as it is but the team aspect would be a very interesting prospect. what would be the anticipated problems with that??

[MattM]

The more that I see about a classed system I seem to warm up to the idea, I love the individual just as it is but the team aspect would be a very interesting prospect. what would be the anticipated problems with that??

 

The anticitaped problem with a class team event is the IHSAA board said they would not consider it at this time, especially if individual state remains in its current format.

[Disco]

We have to go with the fact IHSAA is not going team CLASS. So I think the second best way to determine the state team champion is going back to the old way. This gives the smaller schools or medium size schools at least a ray of hope.

[md85]

Mater Dei is a parochial school, their 500ish students are not equal to the students at a public school the same size.  No public school in the state has a 99% graduation rate, 98% average attendance, or have 91% enter two or four year schools after graduation.  When you can find me a public high school with those stats,  I will proudly call Mater Dei a small school.  Until then, they are not considered a small school.

So you are saying that MD's 500 students are equal in physical ability and numbers to schools who have over 3000 students?  To say they are not a small school is ludicrous.  Even if they are a parochial school, they are still a small school.

[md85]

Under the old format a team with 2 solid wrestlers could be crowned the team state champion, even if they never won a dual meet.  That is just not right.  Wrestling is a team sport.  If it is not, why do we keep a team score.  It is called a wrestling TEAM, not wrestling individuals.

[Y2CJ41]

They are equal to a public school of 800-1000 students.  That would mean in wrestling they would be in the upper half of the enrollment.  In no way they are equal to Garrett, which has 11 more students than them.  Mater Dei does not have 22% of their students in special education, they do NOT have 40% of their students on free or reduced lunches and they graduate 10% more students a year.  

 

Comparing Mater Dei to a similar sized public school is not even close.

[mtv2112]

They are equal to a public school of 800-1000 students.  That would mean in wrestling they would be in the upper half of the enrollment.  In no way they are equal to Garrett, which has 11 more students than them.  Mater Dei does not have 22% of their students in special education, they do NOT have 40% of their students on free or reduced lunches and they graduate 10% more students a year.  

 

Comparing Mater Dei to a similar sized public school is not even close.

 

I am a fan of MD wrestling and the school in general, but Y2 is absolutely correct in his assertions that a parochial school is not the same as a public school when it comes to the enrollment quality.  This isn't just for MD, but for any private school.  Discipline is better, parent involvement is better, more desire, less grade problems, more "team", that is why private schools exist.  They are better, just cost more.

[Boot]

They are equal to a public school of 800-1000 students.  That would mean in wrestling they would be in the upper half of the enrollment.  In no way they are equal to Garrett, which has 11 more students than them.  Mater Dei does not have 22% of their students in special education, they do NOT have 40% of their students on free or reduced lunches and they graduate 10% more students a year. 

 

Comparing Mater Dei to a similar sized public school is not even close.

 

While I agree with you that it is an exception, I don't think demographics should play a role. There are schools in the region with lots of kids in free and reduced, low graduation rates, and are very dominant programs. Size of the school and support of the community play a much larger role in size and success of a wrestling program. Mater Dei has built up a huge support system and large families who want to be a part of that wrestling program. Bellmont is a small school without the stellar demographics but a great system of support and a lot of students who want to be successful wrestlers.

 

The state average for school size is only 800, so the belief some people seem to have that "The Deltas, the New Havens , The Chesterton's, the Jennings county schools they need to stay in the background" makes no sense to me. Delta (900), New Haven (1,067), Chesterton (1,931), and Jennings County (1,614) are all above average in size and average to above average in demographics. The support of the community, the motivation of the kids, and the coaches are what make great programs, not demographics. If it were Carmel, Zionsville, and West Lafayette would all be dominating.

[Y2CJ41]

Bellmont is not a small school.  They have almost 900(894) students, with the median in wrestling being around 730 students.  They are one of the biggest schools in 3A football.  Smaller, yes, but not even close to being a small school(lower 50% enrollment). 

 

Most schools in "da region" all have 1000+ students. 

Merrillville 2393

Munster 1582

Hobart 1234

Crown Point 2289

Lowell 1247

Portage 2534

Lake Central 2978

 

The only region team that is small that has a great program is Hanover Central and they find it tough to compete teamwise against the Merrillvilles and Crown Points of da region.

 

I 100% agree that community and parent support is all present at the top programs.  The best and most efficient way to get this is through winning championships.  When a basketball team can win sectional with a losing record and your best wrestling teams ever can't come close to a sectional title.  Its hard to win championships when, like I said earlier, it takes a very special team to even compete for it. 

[PreparetoWin]

I have never posted on here but I wanted to comment on the information about Jennings County.  I am not a Mater Dei hater, I actually envy the level of envolvement by the parents, coaches and wrestlers.  Jennings County, like every other school, has its hurdles it most overcome to create successful teams. Single parent families, very very high reduced lunch percentage, drugs, teenage pregnancy, etc.  One of the biggest reasons wrestling teams succeed is the involvement of parents and school.  In recent years this has been getting much better for our kids, but we struggle with only having one school in the whole county.  While this might seem like a bonus, some of our kids live 20 or more miles from the high school.  Its difficult for them to get to morning practices or parents to drive them to events for extra practices.  As far as being average or above average in anything but sheer numbers for the most part is just false.  There is no good way to solve the problems of our state tournment format because like one person said belmont, mater dei and other would still be small school and I like the southern indiana to be represented on the big stage and MD has been, if nothing else consistant over the years.  Good Luck!!

[Y2CJ41]

If there were two classes in wrestling, split up evenly, Bellmont would not be in the lower class.  They have almost 900 students and the cut-off would be around 730 students. 

[mtv2112]

If there were two classes in wrestling, split up evenly, Bellmont would not be in the lower class.  They have almost 900 students and the cut-off would be around 730 students. 

 

You have a nasty habit of trying to confuse the issue with rational thoughts and undisputable facts.

[md85]

They are equal to a public school of 800-1000 students.  That would mean in wrestling they would be in the upper half of the enrollment.  In no way they are equal to Garrett, which has 11 more students than them.  Mater Dei does not have 22% of their students in special education, they do NOT have 40% of their students on free or reduced lunches and they graduate 10% more students a year.  

 

Comparing Mater Dei to a similar sized public school is not even close.

In no way are they equal to Garrett?  So you are saying if they are in a better situation than Garrett(parental and school involvement, etc.) then they are automatically a big school?  They are equal to a school of 800-1000 students?  By what standard?  What mathematical formula did you use to come to that conclusion?  If they are equal to a school of 800 students, wouldn't that put them in the small school class?  Most of this statement seems to by Y2's supposition, based only on what he BELIEVES, not supported by any facts other than special education and reduced lunches.  I will repeat, calling MD a big school is assinine.

[decbell1]

I think everyone is getting caught up in terms and reading in between the lines.

 

Let's set this straight.

 

Mater Dei IS a small school. That is undeniable, because it's a very objective discussion, based strictly on numbers.

 

However, They are not LIKE most other schools of similar enrollment. There are many factors in this that have been discussed previously, but it is fairly obvious that comparing the student population of Mater Dei with those at a public school of the same size reveals a large disparity in potential wresters for a school.

[md85]

Since we know class team is not in the IHSAA's near future plans.

This is really for discussion. After experiencing both old and new systems of determining team state champions, I think it needs to be readdressed. I personally, as a spectator along with15% of Indiana teams, like the excitement of teams vying for the championship in this now tournament.But do coaches and wrestlers of 85% of the schools in Indiana see it the same way? Chances of s small school winning the team state in the old tournament is at least a ray of light in the horizon.

If the team tournament were broken down into 2 classes, and four teams from each class went to state, it would still be 15% of the state.  There would be the same disparity in the lower class with 6 or 7 teams being the only ones in the state championship.  All this would do is change the team names to smaller schools.  Teams like Evansville Memorial would dominate the smaller class leaving all the other schools out in the cold.

[mtv2112]

In no way are they equal to Garrett?  So you are saying if they are in a better situation than Garrett(parental and school involvement, etc.) then they are automatically a big school?  They are equal to a school of 800-1000 students?  By what standard?  What mathematical formula did you use to come to that conclusion?  If they are equal to a school of 800 students, wouldn't that put them in the small school class?  Most of this statement seems to by Y2's supposition, based only on what he BELIEVES, not supported by any facts other than special education and reduced lunches.  I will repeat, calling MD a big school is assinine.

 

The Tennessee version of the IHSAA uses a 1.8 enrollment multiplier for private schools that wish to compete on the same stage as public schools.

[Y2CJ41]

In no way are they equal to Garrett?  

The number of students is the equal there.  The quality of students at Mater Dei is tremendously higher than Garrett's.

 

So you are saying if they are in a better situation than Garrett(parental and school involvement, etc.) then they are automatically a big school?  

I am saying they don't have the "fat" that a public school has because they do not have the special education students, the free/reduced lunch kids, etc.  The ones that have to get a job because they need to help the family pay the electric bill and kids that have no interest what-so-ever in school.  At Mater Dei, those types of students are rare, while at a public school they are no so rare.  

 

Eliminating those kids, makes the quality of the school go up and therefore more potential athletes and kids in extra curricular activities.  

 

They are equal to a school of 800-1000 students?  By what standard?  

By the standard that a public school must accept everyone that walks in the door, no matter how much money they have.  If a kid goes up to MD on the first day of school saying they live in the "district" they don't have to accept him if he doesn't have the $4,200 to get in.  At Garrett, that kid MUST be accepted.  

 

What mathematical formula did you use to come to that conclusion?

A magical one.  Adding the fat to MD's population that they trimmed off by charging $4,200 a year.

 

 If they are equal to a school of 800 students, wouldn't that put them in the small school class?  

It would put them close to the bubble, but they would be a big school.  The 50% mark is at around 730 students when I did the class stuff this spring with the new data from the IHSAA.

 

Most of this statement seems to by Y2's supposition, based only on what he BELIEVES, not supported by any facts other than special education and reduced lunches.  I will repeat, calling MD a big school is assinine.

It is a fact that Mater Dei's students are very much more higher quality than that of Garrett's.  Graduation rates, attendance rates, and number of students entering college tell that this is a FACT.  No public school in the nation has a 99% graduation rate or 95% of their students going on to college.  Mater Dei has trimmed the fat, so to speak, of kids that basically don't want to be at school.

 

If you can't understand that, then you really cannot understand logic.  MD has probably 95% of their students eligible at any time for athletics, while at Garrett, its probably closer to 70%, if that.      

[Y2CJ41]

The Tennessee version of the IHSAA uses a 1.8 enrollment multiplier for private schools that wish to compete on the same stage as public schools.

Illinois uses a 1.65 multiplier and Missouri uses 1.35.

 

So taking the 564 students at Mater Dei and adding the 1.35 multiplier, makes their enrollment 761 students, which would in essence bump them into big school status in the IHSAA.